Which TE do you most want the Pats to take?

[bakes781]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I thought Watson was pretty good when utilized. I just think when Randy and Wes got here it took Ben out of the gameplan with the exception of redzone. With Wes gone I do see an immediate need for a reliable pass catcher, but with health concerns for several of the top prospects I don't see us risking a day 1 or 2 pick there.

 

[BritPat]

I think you've reversed the cause and effect. We didn't even attempt to keep Watson because he wasn't dependable in the passing game. And it would not have been the best use of money to sign him to a free-agent deal. Best of luck, mutual parting, and all that.

Let's not half-ass this. TE is an important position in our offense, as conceptualized. I'd rather not throw a 4th or 5th rounder at the position and say "good enough".

If the problem was Watson, why didn't they keep Thomas and use him more in the passing game, or use Baker more in the passing game?

We threw at our TE's just 61 times IN TOTAL last year.

Jason Witten, Tony G and Dallas Clark all doubled that individually.

The problem was not Watson, or Baker, or Thomas. The problem was the system. The only thing half assed was the play-calling, and it's no wonder our drives seemed to break down whenever Welker and Moss were double covered.

The Tight End position since we went to a more spread offense in the last three years has become marginalised, and we ask our TE's to do much more blocking than ever to keep #12 upright. We need to go back to the way things were.

 

[patsfan55]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I thought Watson was pretty good when utilized. I just think when Randy and Wes got here it took Ben out of the gameplan with the exception of redzone. With Wes gone I do see an immediate need for a reliable pass catcher, but with health concerns for several of the top prospects I don't see us risking a day 1 or 2 pick there.

When we had Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as our only legitimate wrs (and Gaffney came in the middle of the year don't forget) yes Watson was very solid. Thing is, he was the most talented of any of those guys and he never really separated himself. He never showed that he could dominate. I remember a preseason game that year I feel like we had to have targeted him like 15 times. So, we were definitely looking to him in the passing game that year. But, he just never made that next step. Honestly when I watch him, I think he lacks the "concentration" factor. The best wrs have this ability to always be tracking the ball, and go and get it when in traffic etc. Watson just didn't have that.

 

[Nonentity]

I just think he lacks the ability to separate. I don't have the ability to watch tape of him to make this any more than a total guess, but my suspicion would be that he telegraphs his cuts way too early, making it easy for defenders to catch up to him. He's generally been good in the red zone compared to the rest of the time, but he generally just hasn't worked out.

I'm with BritPat on the numbers - we don't use our Tight Ends as receivers, for whatever reason. You can't ask Tom Brady to throw at covered receivers, and if they're covered with a single defender then they're basically a waste of time.

We DO need a 3rd receiver, but that receiver doesn't have to be a TE. We play out of a 3WR/1TE/1RB set a lot so it may as well be a player like Tate, or a draftee. The problem last year was that Galloway was a bust and Aiken, for all his effort, was not a bonafide receiver.

 

[bucky]

The Tight End position since we went to a more spread offense in the last three years has become marginalised, and we ask our TE's to do much more blocking than ever to keep #12 upright. We need to go back to the way things were.

According to Profootballfocus, our TEs went our for a pass 600 times last year - out of about 700 pass plays. Now Brady only threw them the ball 10% of the time. But that's probably because (a) they weren't open, (b) he found other receivers open first (like Welker), (c) he didn't have time to look for them. But certainly it's not because they weren't out there. Dallas Clark is clearly a much better receiver than anyone the Pats have. Yet if you look at his stats in 2008, when the Colts had Harrison and Gonzalez, Clark got the ball less often. So it's really a combination of how good your TEs are vs. your other passing options. Not just for Pats, but for all the teams. For example, in 2006, Brady threw to the TEs 141 times - which is about 25% of the offense. Not coincidentally, that was the worst group of WRs here in quite some time.

 

[dryheat44]

If the problem was Watson, why didn't they keep Thomas and use him more in the passing game, or use Baker more in the passing game?

Hey, preaching to the choir re: Thomas, and you can find my posts from a year ago at this time to back me up. I don't know. I don't know why BB traded for then cut Alex Smith or Mike Matthews either. But don't compare Watson to Thomas. Thomas caught everything in his direction. The hands on my Rite-Aid brand wristwatch are more dependable than Watson's. The easier the catch, the more likely he was to drop it.

We threw at our TE's just 61 times IN TOTAL last year.

I'll take your word on that...but I would say that it's a function of TEs not getting open and Brady not trusting them to make the catch.

The problem was not Watson, or Baker, or Thomas. The problem was the system. The only thing half assed was the play-calling, and it's no wonder our drives seemed to break down whenever Welker and Moss were double covered.

The Tight End position since we went to a more spread offense in the last three years has become marginalised, and we ask our TE's to do much more blocking than ever to keep #12 upright. We need to go back to the way things were.

I don't think the system is to blame, but I agree with the rest of this. We've talked plenty about the OL being overmatched in pass protection against the blitz, which Brady faces as much as any QB in the league. I still don't believe that Belichick doesn't want an elite receiving TE, or that he won't find a way to use him if he has one.

 

[bakes781]

If I felt confident there was a top prospect at TE that could come in on day one and start I would jump all over it. But Gresham is still recovering from knee surgery, Gronkowski missed all of last season and Moeaki has a bum foot.

 

[HarkDawg]

Gresham is winning the pole


cartilage related knee injury..... he is fine. just needs time

no structural damage or any ACL/MCL tears


he is the pick.... hopefully all other 21 teams pass him up

 

[BritPat]

According to Profootballfocus, our TEs went our for a pass 600 times last year - out of about 700 pass plays. Now Brady only threw them the ball 10% of the time. But that's probably because (a) they weren't open, (b) he found other receivers open first (like Welker), (c) he didn't have time to look for them. But certainly it's not because they weren't out there.

Who said they weren't out there? I've done in depth research into it here:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/323630-new-england-tight-end.html

Dallas Clark is clearly a much better receiver than anyone the Pats have. Yet if you look at his stats in 2008, when the Colts had Harrison and Gonzalez, Clark got the ball less often.

But still thrown at way more times than our TE's - 112 times to be exact.

So it's really a combination of how good your TEs are vs. your other passing options. Not just for Pats, but for all the teams.

Yes, I understand this, hence the in depth research above. but thanks for agreeing with me.

For example, in 2006, Brady threw to the TEs 141 times - which is about 25% of the offense. Not coincidentally, that was the worst group of WRs here in quite some time.

And it's great now? With Moss and Welker double covered most of the time, and Aiken and co unable to get open, Watson should have been targeted much more than he has been. He should have been sent out on more routes than he has been. But he hasn't.

This offense must get back to being more balanced.

 

[HarkDawg]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I thought Watson was pretty good when utilized. I just think when Randy and Wes got here it took Ben out of the gameplan with the exception of redzone. With Wes gone I do see an immediate need for a reliable pass catcher, but with health concerns for several of the top prospects I don't see us risking a day 1 or 2 pick there.

Watson was good..... injuries and not utilizing him as much made him replaceable..... It's not like he was an Anthony Gonzalez or Dallas Clark TE. Watson was neither a stud or a dud...... he can be replaced

 

[BritPat]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-new-england-tight-end-page3.html#post1734530

Watson's 08 numbers -^

 

[patsfan55]

Watson was good..... injuries and not utilizing him as much made him replaceable..... It's not like he was an Anthony Gonzalez or Dallas Clark TE. Watson was neither a stud or a dud...... he can be replaced

Just wondering, when was the last time someone called him Anthony Gonzalez? I'm putting the over/under at 5th grade. I'm taking the under. Any takers?

 

[bucky]

Who said they weren't out there? I've done in depth research into it here:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/323630-new-england-tight-end.html


This offense must get back to being more balanced.

First off, I want to say nice work on the research. A lot of people like to throw around opinions that are not based on anything besides their own illusions.

I also completely agree with you that the passing game needs to be more balanced.

With regard to your numbers, I think what you're clearly saying is that we don't THROW to our TEs enough - which is very different from saying we don't USE our TEs. In fact, we use our TEs quite a bit both as blockers and potential receivers. Why Brady chooses not to throw to them is not quite so obvious, but clearly the quality of the TEs as opposed to the quality of other receiving options has something to do with it.

I've done a little research of my own, and here's what I found. The number below represent the % of the team's total passing offense the TEs are responsible for - as Targets, Completions, and Yards:

2009: 10% of targets, 11% of completions, 12% of yards.
2008: 12, 9, and 8.
2007: 12, 12, and 10.
2006: 27, 25, and 29.

I couldn't go back to before 2006 because I couldn't find target stats prior to that (which I think is the most important stat). But obviously since 2006, we've had a very different composition of WRs, which accounts for the difference.

 

[HarkDawg]

Just wondering, when was the last time someone called him Anthony Gonzalez? I'm putting the over/under at 5th grade. I'm taking the under. Any takers?

we could get lucky and draft 1....

all i meant was Watson is replaceable

 

[captain stone]

The TE gets plenty of use, just not as a receiver. Check Mike Reiss' offensive snaps lists if you don't believe me. Watson and Baker spent much of last season keeping Brady standing.

I've said before that I wouldn't take a TE in Rounds 1/2. But I fancy picking up a blocking TE in R3/4, with Tony Moeaki as binky.

What I should've written is that the TE doesn't get much use here as a receiver, therefore I find it a poor use of draft assets to spend one in the first 2 rounds on a TE. As long as our more pressing needs are addressed - WR, Pass-Rusher, DE, another CB - then I can see a TE like Moeaki being taken in the 4th round. And there should be some others - both of the blocking & receiving type - avail. in the 6th & 7th rounds, too.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Well if our Tight Ends got open more often, I'm sure they'd have more targets and receptions. It's a function of quality as well as quantity. Watson was nothing special or the Pats would have made an effort to resign him. I'm not going to sugar coat.

There are probably better tight ends than Watson available in the draft, if you have the opportunity to take one, then you do so. Now I'd hope it wouldn't be a 1st round pick, but I wouldn't put it past BB to do so. Particularly if he is in love with Gresham, per instance.

 

[Nonentity]

What I should've written is that the TE doesn't get much use here as a receiver, therefore I find it a poor use of draft assets to spend one in the first 2 rounds on a TE. As long as our more pressing needs are addressed - WR, Pass-Rusher, DE, another CB - then I can see a TE like Moeaki being taken in the 4th round. And there should be some others - both of the blocking & receiving type - avail. in the 6th & 7th rounds, too.

I basically agree

If the best combination tight end was in the 2nd round, I would be ok with taking him there. We have a serious lack of depth at the position. But since Moeaki is a 3rd/4th rounder, let's wait until later.

 

[MaineMan]

First off, I want to say nice work on the research. A lot of people like to throw around opinions that are not based on anything besides their own illusions.

I also completely agree with you that the passing game needs to be more balanced.

With regard to your numbers, I think what you're clearly saying is that we don't THROW to our TEs enough - which is very different from saying we don't USE our TEs. In fact, we use our TEs quite a bit both as blockers and potential receivers. Why Brady chooses not to throw to them is not quite so obvious, but clearly the quality of the TEs as opposed to the quality of other receiving options has something to do with it.

I've done a little research of my own, and here's what I found. The number below represent the % of the team's total passing offense the TEs are responsible for - as Targets, Completions, and Yards:

2009: 10% of targets, 11% of completions, 12% of yards.
2008: 12, 9, and 8.
2007: 12, 12, and 10.
2006: 27, 25, and 29.

I couldn't go back to before 2006 because I couldn't find target stats prior to that (which I think is the most important stat). But obviously since 2006, we've had a very different composition of WRs, which accounts for the difference.

Your numbers perfectly illustrate the point.

For years prior to the arrival of Welker and Moss, even the #3 TE typically had more receptions for more yards than the #3WR. It's not that Watson and the other TEs suddenly got horrible (or that BB suddenly got fed up with them not being Dallas Clark). It's that the WRs suddenly got a cubic-buttload better.

But here's an extension of that scenario:

A lot of folks are looking at this being Moss' "last year" and desperately want BB to shoot the moon early for Bryant or Benn or whoever as a "potential Moss replacement." Here's the thing. The odds that one or another of the early-round WR prospects this year will become "the next Randy Moss" are very slim. Sure, we could take one of those guys and hope. But if he busts, we're kinda screwed. Might be better to spend a couple later picks on guys who will be solid, consistent #3s (of which there are many in this draft) and use the first four picks on something else (defense?).

OR - the offense could start transitioning back to the pre-Moss days by BB taking a very good receiving TE like Pitta and then having Crumpler teach him how to block.

 

[patsfan55]

we could get lucky and draft 1....

all i meant was Watson is replaceable

LOL, I was alluding to the fact that you called "Tony" Gonzalez by "Anthony"

 

[captain stone]

I don't think the system is to blame, but I agree with the rest of this. We've talked plenty about the OL being overmatched in pass protection against the blitz, which Brady faces as much as any QB in the league. I still don't believe that Belichick doesn't want an elite receiving TE, or that he won't find a way to use him if he has one.

I also believe that Bill would like to have an elite receiving TE - who wouldn't?

But unless the pass-protection from our OL improves, then those elite receiving skills would be diminished here, if not wasted.

Fortunately, a Light-Vollmer (instead of a Light-Kaczur) pairing at Tackle should allow for a TE to run routes more often, and stay home less often. I am ass-uming, naturally, that Light doesn't regress into Kaczuresque ineptitude in the course of one year. Koppen's getting there quickly, and I fear that Neal could go at any second.

I suppose I can be convinced of the value of a 2nd-round TE, just so long as Bill also drafts a WR & a Pass-Rusher by the end of the 2nd round.