Thoughts on safeties Chung, Moore and Delmas

[TriplecHamp]

Anybody got anything on Hamlin from clemson?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Anybody got anything on Hamlin from clemson?

He ran slow at the Combine then injured a hammy at his Pro Day so he was unable to improve on his times. He was playing SS for Clemson, but seamlessly slid over to FS when Clemons was injured against Virginia. I thought he played well in the two games I saw and I don't believe his stock was hurt at the Senior Bowl, so the biggest things dragging him down is Clemson's shaky season and his Combine.

 

[captain stone]

All valid points, Mayo, as usual. I admit that I'm an old fart, in that I like my SSs to put the fear of god into the souls of any who dare roam the middle of my secondary. I just don't see that being provided by someone < 6' and barely > 200 lbs. As for the Ken Phillips & Michael Griffin comparisons, Phillips is bigger & stronger, and Griffin is faster.

Unless someone unexpectedly drops to them, e.g. Vince Wilfork in '04, I feel that the FO's best course of maximizing value at #s 23 & 34 would be a comb. of OL & OLB.

 

[mgteich]

FROM ONE OLD FART TO ANOTHER

I expect that you might like Chung, Moore or Vaughn in a SS role. I also would not recommend using our 23 or 34 on a safety. I expect 47 (or even 58) is plenty. If not, we can use our 89 to move up.

Do you agree that we should be drafting a strong safety?

All valid points, Mayo, as usual. I admit that I'm an old fart, in that I like my SSs to put the fear of god into the souls of any who dare roam the middle of my secondary. I just don't see that being provided by someone < 6' and barely > 200 lbs. As for the Ken Phillips & Michael Griffin comparisons, Phillips is bigger & stronger, and Griffin is faster.

Unless someone unexpectedly drops to them, e.g. Vince Wilfork in '04, I feel that the FO's best course of maximizing value at #s 23 & 34 would be a comb. of OL & OLB.

 

[dryheat44]

What is your opinion on Sean Smith as a safety you do you see him more as a corner. I think BB might give old Weis a call about Bruton and he was the only player on defence who stood out all last season. Rashad Johnson would be a nice pickup if he slips down to the third and I like the other Safety or SS at Clemson Chris Clemons who has a great blend of size and speed.

I'll consider him a corner until he proves to me he can't hack it. His agility is really astounding for a taller guy. I think if he played at Florida or USC he'd go in the middle of the first round, and I was a Smith doubter for most of the last two months.

I don't want to get too wrapped up in FS/SS, but guys like Smith, Johnson, and Clemons would be redundant for as long as Meriweather is on the team. I would rather take those types late in the draft, unless they can excel in the kicking game (Jairus Byrd).

Some later-round FS types: CJ Spillman out of Marshall, Morgan Trent from Michigan (really like him, as he has some CB talent also and is long on leadership skills), Brandon Underwood from Cincinnati, and UNC's Tremaine Goddard.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Please put things in perspective. These are not Great players. There is not an Ed Reed nor Laron Landry here. The only one in this draft class, Mays?, chose not to come out. These guys are all flawed red chippers at best.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Please put things in perspective. These are not Great players. There is not an Ed Reed nor Laron Landry here. The only one in this draft class, Mays?, chose not to come out. These guys are all flawed red chippers at best.

Mays and Berry will go gone quickly next year I would guess

 

[bakes781]

Please put things in perspective. These are not Great players. There is not an Ed Reed nor Laron Landry here. The only one in this draft class, Mays?, chose not to come out. These guys are all flawed red chippers at best.

True so I wouldn't feel comfortable with trading up for any of them. Instead like with the OLBs, let one of them fall to us. If we miss out on one in the 2nd then like mayoclinic suggested I'd trade up for Chip Vaughn in the 3rd.

 

[captain stone]

FROM ONE OLD FART TO ANOTHER

I expect that you might like Chung, Moore or Vaughn in a SS role.
You expect correctly.

I also would not recommend using our 23 or 34 on a safety.
Neither would I.

I expect 47 (or even 58) is plenty. If not, we can use our 89 to move up.
There should still be a good SS available at 47.

Do you agree that we should be drafting a strong safety?

I do. It seems that great minds - or just old farts - do think alike.

 

[rookBoston]

I finally spent the time video scouting the SSs, these three in particular.

My observations:
I looked at Delmas first, because he's so highly rated on most boards.

On film, Delmas was physical and fast to the ball. But he wasn't so much wrapping people up and taking them down as he was throwing his body into them at high velocity. He seemed to be moving so much faster than the RBs he was covering. For that fact alone, I understand why he's being scouted so highly. But, all that video is against MAC competition.

I would not spend a 1st on him, or an early second. If he's there at #57 and no one wanted to give up their 2010 pick for it... maybe I'd take him as a consolation.

Further, Delmas may be one of the most inarticulate people in the English speaking world. I watched an interview where he was answering questions from a scout and in three minutes of film he didn't communicate a single meaningful thought. Football is not a big media sport, and Troy Brown is not the most clear-spoken individual of all time, but I couldn't help but think that the guy didn't have an entirely functioning brain. I immediately pulled up his Wonderlic (he got a 12) and decided that whatever physical talent he has, he's way down on my board for the Pats.

After watching Delmas interview, I watched Chung. That guy is entirely the opposite. Articulate, grounded, gracious. Not only is he physical, he's a thinker. 30 on the Wonderlic.

His game film was pretty respectable. His play reminds me of Meriweather. He's around the ball, willing tackler. I was satisfied that he's a legitimate 2nd rounder. But, I would not consider him with 34.

Finally, Moore. I've seen the reports that he's slow and stiff, and because he's 20# heavier than Delmas and Chung, I was expecting something clunky. I was very pleasantly surprised. His highlight reel is a legitimate pro highlight reel. He's making plays on the edges, in the backfield, shedding blockers, diving to pull down passes. THIS GUY IS FOR REAL!!! He was doing things that I've seen Rodney do, and doing them faster. Even with the extra 20#, his timed 40 speed is the same as Chung and Delmas.

I haven't seen any video interviews with Moore. A couple of interview transcripts were entirely unrevealing. I couldn't find his Wonderlic anywhere.


Unambiguously, my draft order is:
1) Moore, as an impact player
2) Chung, as a legit starter in the late 2nd
3) Delmas... well, maybe not so much

So my new binkeys:
24 - LB James Laurinaitis
34 - SS William Moore
47 - OC Max Unger
57 - TE Chase Coffman

 

[mayoclinic]

Please put things in perspective. These are not Great players. There is not an Ed Reed nor Laron Landry here. The only one in this draft class, Mays?, chose not to come out. These guys are all flawed red chippers at best.

Ed Reed was not a consensus blue chipper in 2002, as his timed speed wasn't that great and he was on the slight size - hence he lasted till #24. Fooled a lot of people, just like he's fooled a lot of QBs since then.

I'm not convinced Mays is a great player. Great physical specimen, yes. These guys may not be true "blue chippers", but I think they compare quite decently with Merriweather/Nelson/Griffin in 2007 - perhaps a tad behind, but not too much.

 

[mayoclinic]

All valid points, Mayo, as usual. I admit that I'm an old fart, in that I like my SSs to put the fear of god into the souls of any who dare roam the middle of my secondary. I just don't see that being provided by someone < 6' and barely > 200 lbs. As for the Ken Phillips & Michael Griffin comparisons, Phillips is bigger & stronger, and Griffin is faster.

Unless someone unexpectedly drops to them, e.g. Vince Wilfork in '04, I feel that the FO's best course of maximizing value at #s 23 & 34 would be a comb. of OL & OLB.

For me, "old fart" is a complement.

Again, I totally agree that Delmas is not as pure an in-the-box big physical SS as Moore, Chung or Vaughn. But arguably the 2 best SS's in the NFL are Troy Polamalu at 5'10" 207# and Bob Sanders at 5'8" 207#, so I don't think you need to be 6'2" 220# to play SS effectively. And when you consider converage ability and versatility Delmas has a clear edge. I'm partly basing my preference for Delmas on BB's comments at the combine regarding valuing versatility and coverage ability in safeties, thinking that he may prefer a hybrid SS/FS to a bigger in the box guy. But it's just a guess. I do like Moore/Chung/Vaughn, I just prefer Delmas' versatility over their size.

I actually think Delmas is quite reminiscent of Michael Griffin. There's not that much of a speed difference - Griffin ran 4.45 at the combine in 2007, Delmas 4.49-4.52. Griffin had a blazingly fast 3-cone at 6.60, Delmas quite similar at 6.67 (compared to Brandon Meriweather at 7.08). Griffin put up a somewhat disappointing 16 reps on the bench press, Delmas 12. And Griffin weighed in at 5'11" 202#, compared to 6' 203# for Delmas. Like Delmas, Griffin had enough speed and ball skills to play FS as well as SS, and even prompt Tennessee to consider using him at CB.

2007 NFL Combine Results - Defense

There was some disagreement about Griffin in the 2007 draft, with many considering him a top 20 pick and some thinking he was a 3rd-4th round value. He's done quite nicely in his first 2 years, including making the pro bowl as an alternate this year, so I would be quite happy if Delmas turns ot to be similar.

 

[mgteich]

I liked Griffin then and now. We did fine with Meriweather. We have our FS. Delmas in not Ed Reed or Tony Polamalu. We could use a player who develops into a top strong safety. Some of us just don't see that in Delmas. And while Wonderlic's aren't everything, it is important on the patriots for our strong safety to call the plays, or at least be able to do so.

In the end, I hope someone picks Delmas early, so that one more player is available for us to choose from.


My choice for that role has always been special team star Rashad Johnson.

For me, "old fart" is a complement.

Again, I totally agree that Delmas is not as pure an in-the-box big physical SS as Moore, Chung or Vaughn. But arguably the 2 best SS's in the NFL are Troy Polamalu at 5'10" 207# and Bob Sanders at 5'8" 207#, so I don't think you need to be 6'2" 220# to play SS effectively. And when you consider converage ability and versatility Delmas has a clear edge. I'm partly basing my preference for Delmas on BB's comments at the combine regarding valuing versatility and coverage ability in safeties, thinking that he may prefer a hybrid SS/FS to a bigger in the box guy. But it's just a guess. I do like Moore/Chung/Vaughn, I just prefer Delmas' versatility over their size.

I actually think Delmas is quite reminiscent of Michael Griffin. There's not that much of a speed difference - Griffin ran 4.45 at the combine in 2007, Delmas 4.49-4.52. Griffin had a blazingly fast 3-cone at 6.60, Delmas quite similar at 6.67 (compared to Brandon Meriweather at 7.08). Griffin put up a somewhat disappointing 16 reps on the bench press, Delmas 12. And Griffin weighed in at 5'11" 202#, compared to 6' 203# for Delmas. Like Delmas, Griffin had enough speed and ball skills to play FS as well as SS, and even prompt Tennessee to consider using him at CB.

2007 NFL Combine Results - Defense

There was some disagreement about Griffin in the 2007 draft, with many considering him a top 20 pick and some thinking he was a 3rd-4th round value. He's done quite nicely in his first 2 years, including making the pro bowl as an alternate this year, so I would be quite happy if Delmas turns ot to be similar.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

For me, "old fart" is a complement.

Again, I totally agree that Delmas is not as pure an in-the-box big physical SS as Moore, Chung or Vaughn. But arguably the 2 best SS's in the NFL are Troy Polamalu at 5'10" 207# and Bob Sanders at 5'8" 207#, so I don't think you need to be 6'2" 220# to play SS effectively. And when you consider converage ability and versatility Delmas has a clear edge. I'm partly basing my preference for Delmas on BB's comments at the combine regarding valuing versatility and coverage ability in safeties, thinking that he may prefer a hybrid SS/FS to a bigger in the box guy. But it's just a guess. I do like Moore/Chung/Vaughn, I just prefer Delmas' versatility over their size.

I actually think Delmas is quite reminiscent of Michael Griffin. There's not that much of a speed difference - Griffin ran 4.45 at the combine in 2007, Delmas 4.49-4.52. Griffin had a blazingly fast 3-cone at 6.60, Delmas quite similar at 6.67 (compared to Brandon Meriweather at 7.08). Griffin put up a somewhat disappointing 16 reps on the bench press, Delmas 12. And Griffin weighed in at 5'11" 202#, compared to 6' 203# for Delmas. Like Delmas, Griffin had enough speed and ball skills to play FS as well as SS, and even prompt Tennessee to consider using him at CB.

2007 NFL Combine Results - Defense

There was some disagreement about Griffin in the 2007 draft, with many considering him a top 20 pick and some thinking he was a 3rd-4th round value. He's done quite nicely in his first 2 years, including making the pro bowl as an alternate this year, so I would be quite happy if Delmas turns ot to be similar.

Good points Mayo as usual.

What are your thoughts on Emanuel Cook, SS/FS, South Carolina ?? He attended Prime U and had drawn comparisons to Bob Sanders due to his size and his great play vs the run. This kid is a playmaker which could be had on day two.

The safety which really does not get a lot of talk who I noticed in all the games I watch of ND was David Bruton and he was a "work out warrior" at the combine. He has good size at 6' 2" and 220 lbs and BB should get a good report on this guy from Weis. 91 tackles, four interceptions, two forced fumbles is good enough production for a pick in the fourth or fifth and I think he could lead the special teams at the very least. I think BB will grab a couple of young safety's just like he did with corners last year. I really hopes he goes for Sean Smith at #34 as I think Dalmus will be gone between #24 and #33 and then fallows that up with Bruton in the fourth or fifth as we are so thin at safety. Springs is not the answer as safety for us and Sanders is just doing the job....which is not bad but we are heading for the Super Bowl

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Good points Mayo as usual.

What are your thoughts on Emanuel Cook, SS/FS, South Carolina ?? He attended Prime U and had drawn comparisons to Bob Sanders due to his size and his great play vs the run. This kid is a playmaker which could be had on day two.

The safety which really does not get a lot of talk who I noticed in all the games I watch of ND was David Bruton and he was a "work out warrior" at the combine. He has good size at 6' 2" and 220 lbs and BB should get a good report on this guy from Weis. 91 tackles, four interceptions, two forced fumbles is good enough production for a pick in the fourth or fifth and I think he could lead the special teams at the very least. I think BB will grab a couple of young safety's just like he did with corners last year. I really hopes he goes for Sean Smith at #34 as I think Dalmus will be gone between #24 and #33 and then fallows that up with Bruton in the fourth or fifth as we are so thin at safety. Springs is not the answer as safety for us and Sanders is just doing the job....which is not bad but we are heading for the Super Bowl

Cook apparently just stopped attending class at the end of the season, which led to his being academically ineligable for South Carolina's bowl game. A buddy at another board who follows SC said Cook had made up his mind he was declaring and just left the rest of the team to go it alone. As a Pats and Gamekocks fan, he'd just as soon not see the Pats dealing with a "team player" of this magnitude.

 

[mayoclinic]

I liked Griffin then and now. We did fine with Meriweather. We have our FS. Delmas in not Ed Reed or Tony Polamalu. We could use a player who develops into a top strong safety. Some of us just don't see that in Delmas. And while Wonderlic's aren't everything, it is important on the patriots for our strong safety to call the plays, or at least be able to do so.

In the end, I hope someone picks Delmas early, so that one more player is available for us to choose from.


My choice for that role has always been special team star Rashad Johnson.

I can understand preferring someone else to Delmas - people have different favorites. What I don't understand is Rashad Johnson as a SS. He's a nice centerfielder type FS, but I don't see him being remotely close to a SS. And, as you say, we have our FS.

 

[BritPat]

Please put things in perspective. These are not Great players. There is not an Ed Reed nor Laron Landry here. The only one in this draft class, Mays?, chose not to come out. These guys are all flawed red chippers at best.

All I'd say about that is, check out who was picked 14th (#145 overall) in the 5th round of the 1994 Draft.

Everybody has a flaw coming out of college, what separates the good players from the great ones is the work ethic and determination to work on those weaknesses and improve them.

 

[mayoclinic]

All I'd say about that is, check out who was picked 14th (#145 overall) in the 5th round of the 1994 Draft.

Everybody has a flaw coming out of college, what separates the good players from the great ones is the work ethic and determination to work on those weaknesses and improve them.

And Adrian Wilson was a third round pick. Chip Vaughn could be another Wilson, or an NFL journeyman. Louis Delmas could be another Troy Polamalu, or a mediocre player. Landry for that matter has been solid but nothing all-world so far - Michael Griffin has been better. There are no sure things.

 

[captain stone]

So my new binkeys:
24 - LB James Laurinaitis
34 - SS William Moore
47 - OC Max Unger
57 - TE Chase Coffman

Why no OLBs, Rook?

 

[captain stone]

But arguably the 2 best SS's in the NFL are Troy Polamalu at 5'10" 207# and Bob Sanders at 5'8" 207#, so I don't think you need to be 6'2" 220# to play SS effectively.
Polamalu is indeed one of a kind; that's why he was taken 16th overall in '03. As for Sanders, he is injury-prone & a dirty player, both due to his leading-with-helmet style. I don't like anything about him. I hope that he injures himself before he has the chance to injure another, like he tried to do to Moss in '07.

And when you consider converage ability and versatility Delmas has a clear edge. I'm partly basing my preference for Delmas on BB's comments at the combine regarding valuing versatility and coverage ability in safeties, thinking that he may prefer a hybrid SS/FS to a bigger in the box guy. But it's just a guess. I do like Moore/Chung/Vaughn, I just prefer Delmas' versatility over their size.
If Meriweather were a bigger FS (6'1" - 210), then I would object less to Delmas, because I do like his coverage ability over the other SSs, and that's def. important when defending 3/4 WR sets. But a tandem of Meriweather & Delmas is just too small for my taste.

I actually think Delmas is quite reminiscent of Michael Griffin. There's not that much of a speed difference - Griffin ran 4.45 at the combine in 2007, Delmas 4.49-4.52. Griffin had a blazingly fast 3-cone at 6.60, Delmas quite similar at 6.67 (compared to Brandon Meriweather at 7.08). Griffin put up a somewhat disappointing 16 reps on the bench press, Delmas 12. And Griffin weighed in at 5'11" 202#, compared to 6' 203# for Delmas. Like Delmas, Griffin had enough speed and ball skills to play FS as well as SS, and even prompt Tennessee to consider using him at CB.

2007 NFL Combine Results - Defense

There was some disagreement about Griffin in the 2007 draft, with many considering him a top 20 pick and some thinking he was a 3rd-4th round value. He's done quite nicely in his first 2 years, including making the pro bowl as an alternate this year, so I would be quite happy if Delmas turns ot to be similar.

Doesn't Griffin play FS, not SS, for the Titans?