Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady

[Lifer]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

Belichick can have a winning season without Brady. He can even win a playoff game. see 1994. So that can't be what is meant by Belichick can't win without Brady. What is meant is a SB.

Parcells can win a playoff game without Belichick. see 1998. So that can't be what is meant. But Parcells has never gone to the SB without Belichick.

Belichick was the Jets DC in 1998.

in fact, lets go thru any playoff winning teams Parcells has had

1984 Giants - Belichick DC won WC vs Rams
1985 Giants - Belichick DC won WC vs 49ers
1986 Giants - Belichick DC won SB
1990 Giants - Belichick DC won SB
1996 Patriots - Belichick Secondary Coach ( for all intents DC) lost in SB
1998 Jets - Belichick DC got to AFC Title game

all other playoff appearances out in first round

hence, Parcells has not even won a playoff game without BB

 

[RayClay]

What, exactly, has Parcells won this year? The point of that was that Parcells has never gone past the first round of the playoffs without Belichick, and he still hasnt.

The point of this is the argument is ridiculous and juvenile. Parcells coached the Giants to two Super Bowls.

By reverse engineering you've decided what you said is more relevant than Belichick never won a super Bowl without Weis, without Crennel, without his lucky slippers or whatever stupid irrelevant thing people want to come up with.

Study statistics. Its called small sample size, it means nothing.

Barry Switzer won a Super bowl without Belichick. And he won it with the Dallas cowboys. Plug that into your conspiracy formula and see what comes out.

 

[RayClay]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

Wrong.....

Josh McDaniels - Official New England Patriots Biography

Dean Pees - Official New England Patriots Biography

I'm sorry, what Super Bowl did we win with those two coordinators?

Super Bowl XXXIX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[spacecrime]

Has this season finally put a fork in all that?

No one has ever disputed that Parcells cannot win games without Belichick. The knock was that he never won a superbowl without BB.

First, since the Dolphins haven't even made the playoffs yet, it may be premature to assume that they will win the superbowl.

Second, even if they do, Parcells didn't coach them, so as far as I can see the chances of anything changing is pretty much zero.

The other knock on Parcells is that he can take a bad team and turn it around in one year, but cannot sustain it. To early to tell if that rep will follow him, though again, he isn't coaching.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

I'm sorry, what Super Bowl did we win with those two coordinators?

Super Bowl XXXIX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sorry, when did you start posting responses to posts you haven't bothered reading?

Belichick got back to the SB without them. Parcells never got back without Belichick.

But only with two assistants.

Both of whom were trained by Parcells!!!!!!!

 

[RayClay]

No one has ever disputed that Parcells cannot win games without Belichick. The knock was that he never won a superbowl without BB.

First, since the Dolphins haven't even made the playoffs yet, it may be premature to assume that they will win the superbowl.

Second, even if they do, Parcells didn't coach them, so as far as I can see the chances of anything changing is pretty much zero.

The other knock on Parcells is that he can take a bad team and turn it around in one year, but cannot sustain it. To early to tell if that rep will follow him, though again, he isn't coaching.

Well a lot of coaches haven't won Super Bowls without Belichick as assistant.

And Belichick hasn't won one without Charlie Weis.

He also hasn't won one without Rome Crennel.

Logically, that means he has needed twice as many top assistants to win super Bowls as Parcells has. Coincidentally, both these essential coaches were trained by Parcells!

So, logically that means Parcells won two Super Bowls with one top assistant (who wasn't mostly trained by a former super Bowl winning coach).

Belichick won 3 super Bowls, but needed two top assistants trained by a former super Bowl coach.

Let's see. 3/2 = 1.5 Super Bowls per top assistant. 2/1 = 2. Parcells wins.

 

[Lifer]

The point of this is the argument is ridiculous and juvenile. Parcells coached the Giants to two Super Bowls.

By reverse engineering you've decided what you said is more relevant than Belichick never won a super Bowl without Weis, without Crennel, without his lucky slippers or whatever stupid irrelevant thing people want to come up with.

Study statistics. Its called small sample size, it means nothing.

Barry Switzer won a Super bowl without Belichick. And he won it with the Dallas cowboys. Plug that into your conspiracy formula and see what comes out.

The point is that Belichick has won playoff games and Super Bowls without Parcells but Parcells has never even won a PLAYOFF GAME without Belichick.

What I said IS more relevant because the thread was about Parcells and Belichick not all the other combinations you are throwing out there.

btw, Belichick at least has won playoff games without Weis and Crennel and has gone to the Super Bowl. Parcells, without HIS top Coordinators, has won ZERO playoff games.

And when they did go head to head in a playoff game, in 1994, when Parcells had Weis and Crennel and Belichick didnt, who won?

 

[RayClay]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

I'm sorry, when did you start posting responses to posts you haven't bothered reading?

We're counting super bowl losses now?

So taking teams from from 1-15 to the playoffs (and similar) doesn't count but losing games does.

You'll have to inform me when we change the rules again.

 

[Lifer]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

We're counting super bowl losses now?

So taking teams from from 1-15 to the playoffs (and similar) doesn't count but losing games does.

You'll have to inform me when we change the rules again.

Super Bowl losses, you mean like when Parcells was making phone calls to the Jets from his hotel room in New Orleans while "preparing" the Patriots for Super Bowl 31?

and you are comparing being in the Front office in Miami this year ( when the playoffs havent been made yet, btw, and only because Brady was lost for the season in N.E.) to Belichick coaching an 18-1 team last year, as part of the Bill Parcells coaching resume??

 

[RayClay]

The point is that Belichick has won playoff games and Super Bowls without Parcells but Parcells has never even won a PLAYOFF GAME without Belichick.

What I said IS more relevant because the thread was about Parcells and Belichick not all the other combinations you are throwing out there.

btw, Belichick at least has won playoff games without Weis and Crennel and has gone to the Super Bowl. Parcells, without HIS top Coordinators, has won ZERO playoff games.

And when they did go head to head in a playoff game, in 1994, when Parcells had Weis and Crennel and Belichick didnt, who won?

btw, Belichick at least has won playoff games without Weis and Crennel and has gone to the Super Bowl. Parcells, without HIS top Coordinators, has won ZERO playoff games.

Will the Senate reconvene for another rule change if that happens this year?

You know, if I'm an owner, the first thing I'm lookoing for is a turnaround.

Parcells has taken a 1-15 team to the playoffs in one year. He took another one to a winning record. Has Belichick ever done anything like that?

Has any coach or GM? I think its pretty impressive

 

[RayClay]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

Super Bowl losses, you mean like when Parcells was making phone calls to the Jets from his hotel room in New Orleans while "preparing" the Patriots for Super Bowl 31?

and you are comparing being in the Front office in Miami this year ( when the playoffs havent been made yet, btw, and only because Brady was lost for the season in N.E.) to Belichick coaching an 18-1 team last year, as part of the Bill Parcells coaching resume??

1-15 to playoffs. 1-15 to winning record.

 

[Lifer]

Will the Senate reconvene for another rule change if that happens this year?

You know, if I'm an owner, the first thing I'm lookoing for is a turnaround.

Parcells has taken a 1-15 team to the playoffs in one year. He took another one to a winning record. Has Belichick ever done anything like that?

Has any coach or GM? I think its pretty impressive

Is Miami in the playoffs? really? When did that happen?

lets see has Belichick ever done anything like that.....you mean like taking a 5-11 team and winning the SUPER BOWL the next year after the starting QB got knocked out in the 2nd game with a bunch of FA castoffs on the roster?

and the 1-15 team in NY Parcells almost took to the playoffs...the DC was Bill Belichick.

 

[Lifer]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

1-15 to playoffs. 1-15 to winning record.

wrong. 1-15 to a win away from the playoffs. and hes not the coach.

and 1-15 to winning record ( with Belichick as DC)

and neither year a playoff victory.

How many Super Bowls would Parcells have won without Belichick? ZERO

How many playoff games did Parcells win with the Patriots without Belichick?
ZERO

How many would he have won with the Jets without Belichick? ZERO

How many did he win in Dallas without Belichick? ZERO

thanks for playing.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Parcells can't win without Belichick who can't win without Brady.

We're counting super bowl losses now?

So taking teams from from 1-15 to the playoffs (and similar) doesn't count but losing games does.

You'll have to inform me when we change the rules again.

I didn't change any rules. You either didn't bother reading before posting, or your reading comprehension failed miserably.

 

[RayClay]

Is Miami in the playoffs? really? When did that happen?

lets see has Belichick ever done anything like that.....you mean like taking a 5-11 team and winning the SUPER BOWL the next year after the starting QB got knocked out in the 2nd game with a bunch of FA castoffs on the roster?

and the 1-15 team in NY Parcells almost took to the playoffs...the DC was Bill Belichick.

Wait a minute. I said two 1-15 teams not 5-11 teams.

This is like its a wonderful life. Parcells would have at least been a coach and had the same players without Belichick.

If there had been no Parcells, would Belichick have even had another chance? Would he have had such a core of great veterans in his second season, when even Kraft admitted his job was shaky following 5-11 start?

Would he have even met Mr. Kraft to get a second chance after a less than ingratiating start as a head coach?

Would he have been a life long assistant?

Would he just be closing the Library?



Besides, that super Bowl winning team had a core of veterans with super Bowl experiences.

No way we get there without guys like Law, McGinest, Bruschi, Troy Brown, Adam Vinatieri. Wow. Who built that team and took it to the super Bowl in 1996-7?

Amazing, so the Coach that couldn't be done without apparently won a title with a core of veterans from the coach who didn't know anything until he came around.

What a coincidence. You certainly can't say he built that team through the draft. Good decisions in free agency, but it isn't like anyone couldn't have picked up those players.

 

[Lifer]

Wait a minute. I said two 1-15 teams not 5-11 teams.

This is like its a wonderful life. Parcells would have at least been a coach and had the same players without Belichick.

If there had been no Parcells, would Belichick have even had another chance? Would he have had such a core of great veterans in his second season, when even Kraft admitted his job was shaky following 5-11 start?

Would he have even met Mr. Kraft to get a second chance after a less than ingratiating start as a head coach?

Would he have been a life long assistant?

Would he just be closing the Library?



Besides, that super Bowl winning team had a core of veterans with super Bowl experiences.

No way we get there without guys like Law, McGinest, Bruschi, Troy Brown, Adam Vinatieri. Wow. Who built that team and took it to the super Bowl in 1996-7?

Amazing, so the Coach that couldn't be done without apparently won a title with a core of veterans from the coach who didn't know anything until he came around.

What a coincidence. You certainly can't say he built that team through the draft. Good decisions in free agency, but it isn't like anyone couldn't have picked up those players.

I never said Parcells was crap, or that his influence wasnt huge. Bill Parcells gave the New England Patriots credibility as a franchise probably for the first time. Even in the Fairbanks days, the franchise was run as a second rate operation by the Sullivans.
Bill Parcells gave them cache. Then Kraft changed everything permanently by buying the team. Kraft has proven his influence was the most lasting and important. Parcells # 2 and Bledsoe a very distant third. Bledsoe didnt keep the team here, Kraft did and Parcells was the one in 1993 who gave us all hope, but back in 1993, we would have had that hope with Rick Mirer, because we believed in Parcells. And you are right, if Parcells doesnt come here, Belichick doesnt.

But if Belichick doesnt go to the Giants ( and Belichicks career wasnt spawned by Parcells, he started long before with the likes of Ted Marchibroda and others) then Bill Parcells never wins those 2 Super Bowls and he is never hired in New England. So it goes both ways.

This is about coaching. And it is a kind of Lennon-McCartney thing. They needed each other. But its a fact that Belichick has won 15 playoff games and 3 Super Bowls without Parcells and was the DC on 2 other SB winning teams. Bill Parcells has won ZERO playoff games without Bill Belichick.

Also, about 1996. What did those players ever do before Belichick got there for that year. Parcells built that team, but they never won a playoff game until 1996.

 

[RayClay]

I never said Parcells was crap, or that his influence wasnt huge. Bill Parcells gave the New England Patriots credibility as a franchise probably for the first time. Even in the Fairbanks days, the franchise was run as a second rate operation by the Sullivans.
Bill Parcells gave them cache. Then Kraft changed everything permanently by buying the team. Kraft has proven his influence was the most lasting and important. Parcells # 2 and Bledsoe a very distant third. Bledsoe didnt keep the team here, Kraft did and Parcells was the one in 1993 who gave us all hope, but back in 1993, we would have had that hope with Rick Mirer, because we believed in Parcells. And you are right, if Parcells doesnt come here, Belichick doesnt.



This is about coaching. And it is a kind of Lennon-McCartney thing. They needed each other. But its a fact that Belichick has won 20 playoff games and 3 Super Bowls without Parcells and was the DC on 2 other SB winning teams. Bill Parcells has won ZERO playoff games without Bill Belichick.

But if Belichick doesnt go to the Giants ( and Belichicks career wasnt spawned by Parcells, he started long before with the likes of Ted Marchibroda and others) then Bill Parcells never wins those 2 Super Bowls and he is never hired in New England. So it goes both ways.

Well, Clarence the Angel, you just don't know that, nobody ever will, so why not drop it?

That's my only point. They are two of the greatest football men of our generation.

If people want to hate parcells for what he did, that's fine, but it doesn't diminish his accomplishments. Anymore than it made Chuck Fairbanks less of a football mind.

Parcells is almost done. Anyone could find that he never won on rainy Saturdays while Belichick did. It doesn't matter, its just stupid.

Cassel hasn't won anything yet either but, apparently, he's done enough to keep the Belichick without Brady people away.

Belichick is a great enough coach in his own right. he doesn't need revisionist historians diminishing the accomplishments of other talented people.

 

[RayClay]

Belichick was mostly a young assistant to the assistant before the Giants. There's no doubt his significant advancement occurred there.

1975
Baltimore
COLTS
Special Assistant to the Head Coach
(Defense and Special Teams)
1976-77
Detroit
LIONS
1976: Offensive Assistant & Tight Ends Coach
1977: Receivers Coach & Special Teams Assistant
1978
Denver
BRONCOS
Asst Special Teams Coach & Asst to the Defensive Coordinator
1979-90

New York
GIANTS

1979-1980: Special Teams Coach/Defensive Assistant
1981-1982: Special Teams/Defensive Asst/Linebackers Coach
1983-1984: Linebackers Coach/began to coordinate defense
1985-1988: Defensive Coordinator
1989-1990: Defensive Coordinator/Secondary Co

 

[Lifer]

Well, Clarence the Angel, you just don't know that, nobody ever will, so why not drop it?

That's my only point. They are two of the greatest football men of our generation.

If people want to hate parcells for what he did, that's fine, but it doesn't diminish his accomplishments. Anymore than it made Chuck Fairbanks less of a football mind.

Parcells is almost done. Anyone could find that he never won on rainy Saturdays while Belichick did. It doesn't matter, its just stupid.

Cassel hasn't won anything yet either but, apparently, he's done enough to keep the Belichick without Brady people away.

Belichick is a great enough coach in his own right. he doesn't need revisionist historians diminishing the accomplishments of other talented people.

Fine. But it was you who brought it up with this thread. I hadnt thought about this for a long time. Dont post a thread like this if you dont want to dredge up the arguement again.

Its like someone posting a thread that Drew Bledsoe got a raw deal in New England. You'll get the old Bledsoe haters pouncing.

 

[Lifer]

Belichick was mostly a young assistant to the assistant before the Giants. There's no doubt his significant advancement occurred there.

1975
Baltimore
COLTS
Special Assistant to the Head Coach
(Defense and Special Teams)
1976-77
Detroit
LIONS
1976: Offensive Assistant & Tight Ends Coach
1977: Receivers Coach & Special Teams Assistant
1978
Denver
BRONCOS
Asst Special Teams Coach & Asst to the Defensive Coordinator
1979-90

New York
GIANTS

1979-1980: Special Teams Coach/Defensive Assistant
1981-1982: Special Teams/Defensive Asst/Linebackers Coach
1983-1984: Linebackers Coach/began to coordinate defense
1985-1988: Defensive Coordinator
1989-1990: Defensive Coordinator/Secondary Co

well, DUH, that was a whole 4 years pre-New York. of course most of his advancement would be in the place he coached for 11 years. That doesnt mean he STARTED with Parcells. Belichicks father was a football coach. He was a film junkie as a kid and had many, many coaching influences before Bill Parcells.

Bill Parcells was a great coach. Im just ranking Belichick a little closer to Lombardi than Parcells.