Sean Payton says Saints won't sign Malcolm Butler to an offer sheet

[RayClay]

If I had a house that no one said could be sold, and my neighbor (a newly minted real estate agent) sold it for a couple million dollars, then yeah I might trust him with my next house, even if it was worth considerably more.

I might have my experienced real estate agent from the area give yours some tips after i had all the showings and got a top price, because that's just the kind of guy I am.

 

[Ring 6]

Except, if he brings a deal, he's assuming that team will trade for him. We know this can't happen because teams never discuss trades with unsigned players.

That's because his agent would have spoken to both sides and negotiated the deal because, you know, that's how it works when you aren't under contract.

 

[RayClay]

In my book, Payton saying something about potential Butler trade equals news. People have been speculating that they would give us their 11 pick. We knew it was unlikely, now we know it won't happen. Most likely, Butler will sign the tender or hold out.

It could be *wink wink* a signal that *wink wink* Butler will sign his tender *wink wink* because no one could have *wink wink* discussed a trade *wink* before that announcement.

 

[RayClay]

That's bevausevhis agent would have spoken to both sides and negotiated the deal because, you know, that's how it works when you aren't under contract.

His agent is allowed to do trades? I thought he was only authorized to negotiate contracts.

 

[Ring 6]

His agent is allowed to do trades? I thought he was only authorized to negotiate contracts.

Nope. Agents often negotiate trades for players who are under contract but want to hold out when the team gives permission. That's how branch was traded for example.
With a RFA, like welker, the agent finds out what the team willing to sign the player would give up, the saints in this case, while negotiating a deal, and then goes back to the patriots and informs them that his player, who they could not work a deal out with, will sign the tender in exchange for the agreement he will be traded to the saints for the comp the saints have said they will give.
This is legal, above board and does not infringe on the players rights.

Otherwise the patriots would be out now shopping butler to 31 teams and he would have no say in where he goes because the patriots would hold all the cards. That is why there is a FA period for RFAs. So they can actually be the F part of RFA.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

In my book, Payton saying something about potential Butler trade equals news. People have been speculating that they would give us their 11 pick. We knew it was unlikely, now we know it won't happen. Most likely, Butler will sign the tender or hold out.

That only reinforces my point about the silliness of these threads.

What you write boils down to saying that there was some idle speculation that has now proven to be just that and that Butler's options remain what they have been from the beginning.

Seriously, it was never more than a figment of people's imaginations and many useless threads that the Saints would give up their 11th pick for Butler. But the discussions and the threads proliferated until people convinced themselves that what from the beginning was never going to happen had morphed into a "real possibility" in their minds.

I think we just have different definition of what "equals news."

 

[Ring 6]

It could be *wink wink* a signal that *wink wink* Butler will sign his tender *wink wink* because no one could have *wink wink* discussed a trade *wink* before that announcement.

Yes someone could have. Butler and his agent are free to discuss what the saints would give up and threaten to hold out if the patriots don't agree to that trade if he signs the tender.
Happens all the time.
It's the legal way to handle this.

 

[RayClay]

Nope. Agents often negotiate trades for players who are under contract but want to hold out when the team gives permission. That's how branch was traded for example.
With a RFA, like welker, the agent finds out what the team willing to sign the player would give up, the saints in this case, while negotiating a deal, and then goes back to the patriots and informs them that his player, who they could not work a deal out with, will sign the tender in exchange for the agreement he will be traded to the saints for the comp the saints have said they will give.
This is legal, above board and does not infringe on the players rights.

Otherwise the patriots would be out now shopping butler to 31 teams and he would have no say in where he goes because the patriots would hold all the cards. That is why there is a FA period for RFAs. So they can actually be the F part of RFA.

You're sure about that? Belichick is known to add a pic, then throw in two to compensate, like the 32nd pick and a fourth for our 6th and seventh and a conditional 5th in 2018.

You think this agent is up to that, when he doesn't even seem to know what a RFA is?

Maybe they could sit at a picnic table where Payton and BB negotiate with agent guy sitting in the middle and occasionally *overhear* what's going on.

 

[Ring 6]

You're sure about that? Belichick is known to add a pic, then throw in two to compensate, like the 32nd pick and a fourth for our 6th and seventh and a conditional 5th in 2018.

You think this agent is up to that, when he doesn't even seem to know what a RFA is?

Maybe they could sit at a picnic table where Payton and BB negotiate with agent guy sitting in the middle and occasionally *overhear* what's going on.

Since belichick is barred from discussing a trade of Malcolm butler until he signs his tender I would think that belichick will follow the rules. Like he has always done.
It's not that complicated.
Butlers agent had had talks with the patriots. He can easily inform belichick that he feels he can do better elsewhere and if no one signs an offer sheet but will take him for less how much is enough?
Then he goes and gets the deal he wants with the team he wants knowing what BB will accept. He goes back and says my client wants to be traded to _______. They will give you the 42nd pick. If you do not take it you will see my client week 11 and don't expect him to be in shape.

Why must you insist that belichick is boldly circumventing rules that he has clearly stated he understands when there is absolutely no need?

The fact that it would be easier for the team to negotiate trading an RFA is not a valid argument that they do, since it is against the rules and detrimental to the player who I am sure cares about his rights.

 

[Ring 6]

You're sure about that? Belichick is known to add a pic, then throw in two to compensate, like the 32nd pick and a fourth for our 6th and seventh and a conditional 5th in 2018.

You think this agent is up to that, when he doesn't even seem to know what a RFA is?

Maybe they could sit at a picnic table where Payton and BB negotiate with agent guy sitting in the middle and occasionally *overhear* what's going on.

I have no clue what the agent is up to, only what he is allowed and what a team is allowed to do with a player not under contract.

At this point there is no credible evidence that the patriots are even interested in trading butler, much less interested in unnecessarily violating the rules to do so.

 

[ausbacker]

I agree, Aus, although we have a difference of opinions in regard to how much you think Revis will bring in.

I'd actually be okay with Revis too, though, as I think Belichick and company can mask his weaknesses if that's what it comes to. In a perfect world, Butler stays and ends up signing a longer term deal.

TBH, I don't expect much other than the potential idea that Belichick may be able to coax whatever he has left out of him in another great FU to the Jets and for the embarrassment of secondary riches which would almost certainly piss off the Broncos and Seahawks.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

They can trade a player who isn't under contract?

SP and BB can't say they are negotiating a trade, but SP can say to the media he is interested in butler, can't he? That's not tampering as far as I know.

 

[Ring 6]

SP and BB can't say they are negotiating a trade, but SP can say to the media he is interested in butler, can't he? That's not tampering as far as I know.

Butler is not under contract so there is no tampering issue.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Butler is not under contract so there is no tampering issue.

That's what I figured.

 

[moosekill]

Butler can negotiate with anyone he wants, he is a free agent, although restricted. He can sign a tender with that club that the patriots can choose to match or not. If they match, he plays for them. If he doesn't match he plays for the other team and the Patriots get that teams 1st round pick.

After that it gets a bit fuzzy and has been the source of endless pages of worthless arguing and moronic rantings.

My take is if he doesn't sign with another team he then has little choice but to eventually sign with the Patriots. Once he has done that, he is the patriots property and they can trade him to the highest bidder or keep him. The general thought being if the Saints have worked out the structure of a long term deal with him, they will approach the Patriots with a trade offer, and the Patriots will either accept or deny the trade.

100 pages in 3 paragraphs.

As far as value goes, no team in recent times has agreed to sign a RFA and give up their first round pick. I assume because the combination of a first round draft pick as well as the new contract is assumed to be more valuable than the player in question. The odd thing about this setup is it actually favors the better teams in regards to acquiring the player. If it was Atlanta instead of the Saints we would be talking about pick 31 not 11. That is why it seems odd to me that people have become fixated on the 11th pick.

 

[Spiral]

I think it'd be the other way around. We would trade him to the Saints, then the Saints would sign him to a contract.

Any signing bonus associated with the contract would accelerate onto our salary cap if we did it the way you proposed. So let's say he gets a 4-year, $50M deal with $20M signing bonus. That $20M hits our cap right away if we sign him to the deal, then trade. Obviously not a good idea.

The other way, he signs the tender, we trade him, then the Saints sign him to the deal and can smooth it out however they want.

You could work around this by not having a signing bonus--you'd instead have a roster bonus that could become payable shortly after the trade, say, April 15. That puts it on the Saints' cap, not the Patriots.

 

[Ross12]

TBH - if Cyrus can just make a decent improvement and keep his confidence up, I would feel fine with Gilmore-Rowe-Jones at corner, with Coleman and Jon Jones as the reserves. Maybe draft one more later or as a UDFA for competition.

If Revis comes cheap then I'm fine with bringing him on as the third corner to compete with Cyrus, or also maybe spell Gilmore or Rowe at times.

 

[Ring 6]

You could work around this by not having a signing bonus--you'd instead have a roster bonus that could become payable shortly after the trade, say, April 15. That puts it on the Saints' cap, not the Patriots.

There is no need though. Since he had to sign his tender to be traded that puts him on a 1 year 3.9 mill deal that the saints would then tear up and replace with the terms they have agreed to.

 

[Galeb]

If this thread gets closed, the nickname "Thread Killer" will have been earned.

 

[patriot1136]

Lets say its true with Payton saying that they aren't going to sign Butler. Who else is interested? I'd rather just keep him.