Peter King with a Blood Pumping, Feel Good Piece

[DaBruinz]

I'm not sure....

>>>>6. I still worry about the defense's ability to get off the field on third down. Particularly against Peyton Manning. They're not alone, of course. But it's dangerous when you know your offense is probably going to have to score in the high 30s to beat anyone, and that's how I see New England's chances against Indy right now.

Does he really think the NE defense is that bad?????????

As was pointed out, the last 3 times that the Pats have faced Manning and company, they've lost. Also, during that rime frame, the Pats defense has allowed an average of 35 points. Now, the caveat is that, during those times, we had significant injuries in our secondary and LB corps. I doubt we will see such a numerous number of injuries this year, but you never know.

 

[DaBruinz]

Compare our receiver corps from 2000-2004. It was like a swiss army knife, each receiver had a specialty and were given plays they excelled at.

This is false. Particularly since from 2000-2002, Troy Brown was the starting receiver on one side and the other side saw David Patten from 2001-2002. Patten and Brown were NOT specializers in anything except short routes.

It would be ******ed to start putting players in sub-ideal roles just to switch it up. Explain to me how putting receivers in less-ideal roles makes us better?

It would be ******ed to NOT cross train players. Cross training the receivers across the different WR positions allows them to know what the other player SHOULD be doing as well as allowing them to fill in if needed.

Also, lining Moss up in the slot can create a mis-match. Just like lining Welker up outside can create a mismatch. And that is what this game is about. Mismatches.

This sounds to me like someone who plays poker but incorrectly bluffs or mismanages their hand just to appear 'unpredictable'.

And this sounds to me like someone who has never worked in a team oriented environment or someone who hasn't worked in production. You cross-train people so that, if they are missing, you can continue on without missing a beat. In the situation with the Pats, it allows the players to understand the different roles and understand what will be expected based on the defenses out there.

For instance, by having Moss line up in the slot, it will give him insight on what Welker will see from a particular defense and how Welker will adjust his routes. Having this insight will help Moss adjust his routes properly so that he and Welker do NOT end up in the same area of the field. And this can be extrapolated to the rest of the receivers.

 

[DaBruinz]

I can understand the argument of getting players prepared IN CASE they need to due to injury of a teammate, but if everyone is healthy I think it's silly to put your guys in spots where they are not 'the best' at their job.

And you be stupid for thinking such. 1st off, how can someone get prepared for a position in case of an injury if they aren't out there to practice it? Secondly, you are making a HUGE freaking leap here and putting the cart before the horse with your assumption that everyone will be healthy.

Its is much better to cross train a person when everyone is healthy than it is to thrust someone into the fire and hope they will learn on the go. I would think that last year would be a perfect example of that. Particularly with Gaffney.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well the example of Maroney at fullback and Evans at tailback applies to this example. Welker simply isn't a good deep guy, he should almost never be on the field in that role. If we have standard set plays with Welker as the speed outside guy, then it IS the coordinator's fault.

As for coordinator vs. players fault, here is another example:
If Doc Rivers, also a coaching idiot, put 5 guys out there who didn't match up well with the other team for a quarter, and the Celtics ended up shooting a horrible 30% from the field, it would be DOC's fault, not the players' fault, especially if the Celtics were stacked with talent (like the Pats are on offense).

How do you know that Welker isn't a good "DEEP GUY"? Going deep isn't just about speed. Its about getting OPEN. If the Pats have Welker, Moss, Stallworth Watson and Maroney lining up and they send Moss, Stallworth, and Watson on short to intermediate routes and Welker on a fly or Post route, crossing either Stallworth or Moss, you don't think that Welker is likely to get open? Or maybe confuse the defense and leave Stallworth or Moss open?

Again, its a game of mismatches. Having guys cross-trained so that they know what adjustments their fellow receivers are going to be making is SMART FOOTBALL. Its not dumb or stupid.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'm reminded of a quote from Bob Gibson back in '68: "I just rear back and fire, and see who's better - them or me!" Invariably, it was Gibson. You knew what he did, you knew what was coming, and he still challenged you to beat him. He just rode the horses he had, to the best of his ability. That's the mark of greatness.

That's what this offense has to learn to do - ride the horses it has to the best of it's abilities. You do what you do best, and see just how good the other guy is. You aren't going to get that by putting Moss in the slot to run little curls, or putting Welker outside to run down Champ Bailey.

Uh-uh.

If you're looking for mismatches, then run 2- and 3- TE sets to spice things up.

Let's be real clear on this situation. This is now a team that can match up against the Colts person for person. They don't do confusion. They don't have to.

Neither do we.

Talking about the "confusion" factor in this instance impels me to comment that the only people who will be confused by something like what's being discussed here are the fans who watch the games.

Certainly, no one else will be.

Since when don't the Colts use confusion? I've seen Reggie Wayne run almost every type of route there is. Same with Marvin Harrison and Brandon Steokely. Its how the 3 of them were able to have a season where all 3 were over 1000 yards receiving.

Actually, your comments about Moss in the slot and Welker outside are EXACTLY what you'd do. Because you want to create mismatches.

 

[DaBruinz]

Of course I realize the fact that receivers run different routes, as well as realize how it's nice to have some versatility among your players. But which is more effective - Welker in the slot or outside? I am arguing that sticking Welker on the outside is as pointless as putting Maroney at fullback.

This whole thing is premature, but the way King described it makes it seem like this is going to be part of some base sets we have, which I think is making the LEAST of your talent.

Maybe that's how YOU interpretted what King said, but no one else seemed to interpret it that way. In fact, King was talking about a 4 WR set, a set that the Pats will probably run more often now that they have at least 4 quality receivers, not including Ben Watson.

As for what you are arguing, you are attempting to compare apples and oranges and its a fools comparison.

 

[Oswlek]

I just thought that I would put my thoughts out there on this one:

1) The analogy of Maroney at FB and Evans at HB is so absurd that it really doesn't have any application to the discussion at hand. We aren't talking about WRs turning into RBs, we are talking about WR's running routes that may or may not be best suited for them. A more applicable analogy would be to compare it to Kevin Faulk running nothing but power rushes.

2) While Faulk running power rushes is not a good idea full-time, he ran three straigth power rushes against the Jets in the wildcard game, for an average of 9 ypc. Just because a guy isn't *best* suited for a particular role doesn't mean he shouldn't do it at all. If you even want him to have a chance of doing it in a game, it must be practiced.

3) Reggie Wayne, one of the premier outside WRs in the league, probably lines up in the slot 5-10 times per game. What the hell!? What are those idiot coaches thinking?

Wait.... maybe they are just trying to move him around to make the defense adapt, and then attacking that adaptation. NE does this stuff all the time. Move guys around until you get a formation that you like and then exploit the mismatches that you favor. BTW, the 3rd and 10 conversion just before half-time that led to Indy scoring their second FG was a pass to Wayne out of the slot.

4) Why wouldn't you want guys to be good at multiple tasks? There is not a single defense in the league that couldn't stop just about any offense if all they do is run the same play. Sure you want your guys to be good enough to win even if the D reads it right, but why give the D the advantage from the snap. You can't win with a WR just running fly patterns every time he sets foot on the field. Sure it is what he does best and I'm sure that the one or two times he breaks off of it he get open due to surprise, but you need consistency in offense to succeed. Consistency needs great ability and multiple abilities.

5) NE always cross-trains for injury purposes. Additionally, these are mostly new receivers, so they have to see if a positioning is even feasible. Should they wait for the season to try out their contingency plans?

 

[DaBruinz]

I think there is a HUGE difference between offensive and defensive 'exotic looks'. Belichick is an expert in confusing an opposing quarterback, who is the most important guy on offense, in making him think one thing is happening, and then taking advantage of that.

On defense, fooling the defensive brain on the field won't have the same impact. Most guys on defense do what their task is regardless of who is lined up on the field.

Plus, I fail to see how we can take advantage of putting Welker on the outside, as it neither confuses nor tricks the defense into ANYTHING.

Really? How do you know that? How do you know that Welker, lined up outside, won't run a short in route that brings him across the area that Randy Moss just cleared out? Or, assuming that Moss runs the short route, How do you know that Moss won't be wide open because Welker wen't deep, taking the safety and CB with him, leaving Moss with a 4th or 5th CB attempting to cover him?

You're not looking at this as things happening in fluid motion. You're looking at them in stop time and the game just doesn't work like that.

 

[pats-blue]

No, the only high school fodder found around here are the absurd ideas being brought forth on this thread...
I might like to remind you that the defensive scheme you invoke on that play is a valid one. And an axiomatic part of football is, the offense takes what the defense gives.

Getting back to the original thrust of the post, lining the boys up like that will take exactly what from a defensive scheme that has likely already figured out what will happen?

To use a chess analogy, after White plays P-K4, if you play P-KR4, you'd better be damn sure you can play the game of chess. Just because the move can be made doesn't justify it.

Silly Robert Kraft...obviously he could have you coach the Pats and do better instead of BB where we have him wasting time in practice. What was BB thinking running "absurd" plays in practice with receivers out of postition, It is obvious he doesn't know what he is doing right?

Boy I am glad we have such experts on this board that know what will work on an NFL field better than BB. Jeese

 

[A.C Vegas]

reading this thread makes me wonder how many of the people saying its wrong have accually played the game at any level. I played in HS i was a lineman a LT and NT. but guess what I still learned every line postions and who they were supposed to block because if they missed there assignment we had to be ready to cover it the same on defense we had to learn the line and lineback postions so we'd know what to do if somethign went awry. So you think that the Coaches are wrong for teaching something that is FUNDAMENTAL. I'd rather have all my players know all the postions so that way they can adjust on the fly.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I'm reminded of a quote from Bob Gibson back in '68: "I just rear back and fire, and see who's better - them or me!" Invariably, it was Gibson. You knew what he did, you knew what was coming, and he still challenged you to beat him. He just rode the horses he had, to the best of his ability. That's the mark of greatness.

That's what this offense has to learn to do - ride the horses it has to the best of it's abilities. You do what you do best, and see just how good the other guy is. You aren't going to get that by putting Moss in the slot to run little curls, or putting Welker outside to run down Champ Bailey.

Uh-uh.

If you're looking for mismatches, then run 2- and 3- TE sets to spice things up.

Let's be real clear on this situation. This is now a team that can match up against the Colts person for person. They don't do confusion. They don't have to.

Neither do we.

Talking about the "confusion" factor in this instance impels me to comment that the only people who will be confused by something like what's being discussed here are the fans who watch the games.

Certainly, no one else will be.

Oh great, a baseball analogy from the 60's...

This is the Vince Lombardi school of thought on offense from the 60's - I can tell 'em what play we're running and it won't matter they can't stop us if we execute. Vince had half a dozen rigidly scripted plays in his playbook, and the best players in the league on his team, but he hasn't coached a game in the league in 4 decades. Old school approach doesn't work in today's NFL. Just ask the 2006 Raiders.

Moreso than in any other sport, the NFL is a coaches league rife with scheme and and deception. That's how you trump FA and parity, something Vince never had to deal with. A split second of indecision on the part of an opponent is all the edge these offensive coordinators are looking for these days. That and the necessary personnel to create mismatches. Welcome to the modern era NFL where it's all about exploiting the oppositions weakness whilst they are determined to take away your strength.

(Or as BB terms it taking what a defense will give you...)

When the Greatest Show on Turf lined up against us in XXXVI their plan was to do what they did best. And mano a mano we had no shot. Only our plan was to shut that down not by rushing the passer but by smacking their WR's in the mouth and hitting Marshall Faulk every time he moved. Their genius OC HC and his team were unable to adapt to that strategy, because it threw their vaunted timing off, and they only climbed back in it at the last second when our exhausted defense was too tired to hit them all.

We also played conservative on offense, eschewing the temptation to try to outscore them into submission while they were otherwise occupied and instead be carefully and conservative lest we make a costly mistake and hand them the points our defense was denying their offense. I'm sure NEM was screaming for Charlie's head and Bledsoe's arm at that juncture. Until the last minute of the half when BB adjusted one of Charlie's calls to take advantage of the coverage he was seeing, and at the end of regulation when we bucked form and went for it through the air with a minute twenty left and no time outs pinned at our own end. Who'd a thunk, not the great John Madden or Mike Martz, who were apparently expecting something more conservative like a knee or utterly foolish like a bomb.

It's all about adaptability and executing game plans and deceptive strategy these days - just ask the Colts. Who along the way to an AFCC comeback took a page out of BB's book with a 3rd quarter TD pass to a seldom used LB playing TE uncovered. And he walked in.

 

[patpatriot]

A great part of the fun of this article is that it has the fans on the Jets and Dolphins boards going *insane*.

 

[g-fresh]

I was going to refute the arguments being made about how terribly foolish McDaniels and BB are for *gasp* putting Welker on the outside in mini camp (the horror!), but DaBruinz did a great job summing up my thoughts. You don't have to be an expert to know that you need to cross train your players and that practicing nothing but the expected is straight stupid.

 

[maverick4]

I was going to refute the arguments being made about how terribly foolish McDaniels and BB are for *gasp* putting Welker on the outside in mini camp (the horror!), but DaBruinz did a great job summing up my thoughts. You don't have to be an expert to know that you need to cross train your players and that practicing nothing but the expected is straight stupid.

Look, it's training camp, I understand the cross-training aspect, it is completely understandable and important.

What I am afraid of is King makes it sound like our OC is trying something way over his head, with some new formations we will see this year in real games that don't make any sense. Please, I don't want to see any more double reverses for 8 yard losses at inopportune times, or a complete inability to recognize and adapt to a defense.

As long as it is for cross-training, I have absolutely no problems with it. But IF it is in preparation for some actual plays this year, then I will be pissed. Welker should never be outside more than 1 play a game.

 

[Krazy Koz]

My favorite part of the story was when King said Harrison looked free and easy working out and didn't look 34 last week. This is great news for our secondary.

 

[Frezo]

Moss in the slot, Welker a widout,
It's classic Belichick. King sees it, writes about it and everybody goes nuts INCLUDING Mangini. He's sitting in NY thinking, "Alright, now what? Is he really going to do this? Guess I'd better at least prepare a little for it."

 

[BelichickFan]

My favorite part of the story was when King said Harrison looked free and easy working out and didn't look 34 last week. This is great news for our secondary.

It's easy to forget that on opening day Harrison will be 12 months more removed from a very serious knee injury. Last year he was still wearing a brace and, on opening day, was less than a year removed from the surgery. It sucked losing him last year but there's a good chance that he'll be even better this year than last.

 

[zippo59]

And there we have it! June 11, and Josh McDaniels has already been called an idiot! Why? Because one journalist described one formation run at some point during minicamp that moves certain receivers out of their natural roles.

Now why did they run that formation? Who knows? Maybe it was instructional, designed to help a spanking-new group of receivers understand one another's roles. Maybe it's a wrinkle they'd throw in for a play or two against particular defensive alignments to take advantage of mismatches. Maybe they just wanted to see how Moss looked in that role. Maybe it will become a valuable weapon that we see in multiple games; maybe it will become a fiasco; or maybe we'll never see it at all.

Seems to me it's a pretty huge leap from King's throwaway bit to: Josh McDaniels is an idiot who "needs to stop being cute" and "can screw up this juggernaut offense."

Amen to this.

It is really silly to get all bent out of shape over a certain formation a team is running in mini camp. Really silly.

And do people really expect wide receivers to run the exact same routes the entire season? That kind of locked on tendency makes it much easier for defenses. If Welker is always running short routes, then they will catch on and adjust accordingly. What if Welker ran two deep routes a game just to kepp the defense honest? This league is about changing things up so your opponent never knows what's coming. It's not as if this is somehow proof that Moss is always going to be running underneath routes and Welker is always going to be running deep routes. It is probably just another page in the complex offensive arsenal the team now has. Some people need to relax.

 

[zippo59]

Look, it's training camp, I understand the cross-training aspect, it is completely understandable and important.

What I am afraid of is King makes it sound like our OC is trying something way over his head, with some new formations we will see this year in real games that don't make any sense. Please, I don't want to see any more double reverses for 8 yard losses at inopportune times, or a complete inability to recognize and adapt to a defense.

As long as it is for cross-training, I have absolutely no problems with it. But IF it is in preparation for some actual plays this year, then I will be pissed. Welker should never be outside more than 1 play a game.

What? where are you getting this? I see nothing in the article that says that. All I see is a description of a play in mini camp. You projecting your own meaning on to and it and are trying to use a small sample to cast blanket judgements. The Patriots did some unexpected things with their wide recievers that went against people's assumptions. That does not mean they are going to do it all the time. Sure, Moss ran a short route in this description, but I also heard other accounts from mini camp of Moss running deep routes. They are using him to do both, and it will only make them better. The reason King chose to describe this particular play is that it illustrates the team's desire for versatility and their propensity to do the unexpected. I don't know why you sound so suprised, this is what the Patriots always do.

 

[Real World]

One part of that article bothered me, the part where it said on some plays the Pats receivers are being put in non-ideal places (Welker sprinting on the outside, Moss in the slot running an in-route, etc).

McDaniels needs to stop being cute and just put players in the best position where they will excel. Only McDaniels can screw up this juggernaut offense this year.

McDaniels is TERRIBLE!

The guy couldn't call a play if it had a telephone number. He is GROSS!