OT: Bills new stadium public funding

[XLIX]

I wasn't assuming it.

Actually, yeah you were when you made your "$310 million" calculation. That number is ridiculous.

 

[Ring 6]

I am referring to the payback in the form of taxes.

So? What does an annuity and future value of money have to do with whether a revenue stream covers the expense.
The government issues bonds to cover the cost. The payments to service those bonds are set in stone. The revenue steam required to pay then is not subject to inflation, that is the payment remains the same. Inflation actually makes the opposite argument of what you are implying.

 

[Ring 6]

You didnt put up lmao... you kept moving the goal posts so you wouldnt have to ... we can ask him... or anyone can read the posts, they are still there...

Why doesn't everyone do it? lmao, The smart ones do do it...

I did not move the goal posts at all. I required verification. At the point we agreed on verification, he changed the terms. Please read the posts if you are unclear, I bet that the loser never posts again, but I required verification. He wouldn’t agree to verification, then finally did, and when he did, he changed the terms of the bet to cash, and I do not bet cash under any circumstances.

The smart ones do WHAT? You have failed to give a single example other than pointing out that mortgage interest is deductible which is irrelevant.
Give a specific example.
I can help you. Here are some of the ideas people like you come up with. You could open a business and lose money so your taxable income goes down. Problem is you still pay the same rates on your taxable income. So you throw away $100,000 to save $40,000 in taxes. Nope.
You can give money to charity and deduct it. Again you give away $100,000 to save $40,000. No better.
I’m really just looking for a few specific examples to back up your argument. So far we have “write offs” and “accountants exist so it must happen”

It’s really not your fault, you walked into a trap, because you like many people believe the sensationalism you hear without actually applying any critical thought to it. So when you say “the state won’t collect the taxes based upon brackets because rich people don’t pay taxes” I know you are a tool of the hype. How do I prove that? I simply ask you to give examples and you have none.

 

[mgteich]

So? What does an annuity and future value of money have to do with whether a revenue stream covers the expense.
The government issues bonds to cover the cost. The payments to service those bonds are set in stone. The revenue steam required to pay then is not subject to inflation, that is the payment remains the same. Inflation actually makes the opposite argument of what you are implying.

So, bonds might have a cost of $50M a year for 30 years.

The question is whether the benefits to the people of NY State (including taxes and the effect of visitors on the economy) is more than that over the next 30 years. Also, folks who only consider the direct taxes on the team for 10 games a year have little understand on the effect of having a team in a city.
==========
Let's start with the direct tax benefits (compared with not having a team)
1) income tax on players and staff (the NY state income tax rate is almost 9%)
2) income tax on workers at the stadium, surrounding area, and on suppliers.
3) state and local sales taxes on ticket sales and on concession sales.
4) state and local taxes on sales at restaurants and hotel around the stadium area for those going to games.
5) income taxes on the team and owners.
6) property taxes
7) taxes on those associated with other uses of the stadium throughout the year.
8) We do to net out additional costs to the area, for example for crowd control and traffic. However, these costs are offset by property taxes, local restaurant taxes, and local jobs.

Then, we must consider what the effect is on the economy of Orchard Park and the surrounding region compared to not having a stadium.
========
If this issue comes up in your town, by all means vote your views. The people of New York, through their government, has made a decision. Maybe they would be better off with the team moving to San Antonio. I rather doubt it.

 

[Ring 6]

So, bonds might have a cost of $50M a year for 30 years.

The question is whether the benefits to the people of NY State (including taxes and the effect of visitors on the economy) is more than that over the next 30 years. Also, folks who only consider the direct taxes on the team for 10 games a year have little understand on the effect of having a team in a city.

Probably less than 40 mill.
There is no doubt that the revenue to the state alone will exceed that when a nominal projection of how the cap will increase would mean tax on players income alone will cover it easily.

 

[Pape]

I did not move the goal posts at all.

 

[Ring 6]

I listed the facts accurately. You know that.

 

[Pape]

I listed the facts accurately. You know that.

I know you are lying. I remember the incident. I remember offering third party verification. I remember you backing out at every opportunity.

 

[Ring 6]

I know you are lying. I remember the incident. I remember offering third party verification. I remember you backing out at every opportunity.

You are 100% wrong. I never backed out at all. I required verification. I did not accept bs verification. I accepted the bet once an acceptable verification was agreed upon. The other person changed the stakes I did not accept that change, and thoroughly explained why.

Interesting though that you are deflecting from YOUR claim about what you think my income is, refusing to compare it yours, and reverting to a previous conversation with a different person, all to deflect from the fact that you have so clearly communicated you have no clue at all about the topic at hand, which you jumped into in order to try to dispute something that was correct and you aren’t smart enough to understand.
Good work by you. You must be tired.

 

[Pape]

You are 100% wrong. I never backed out at all. I required verification. I did not accept bs verification. I accepted the bet once an acceptable verification was agreed upon. The other person changed the stakes I did not accept that change, and thoroughly explained why.

Interesting though that you are deflecting from YOUR claim about what you think my income is, refusing to compare it yours, and reverting to a previous conversation with a different person, all to deflect from the fact that you have so clearly communicated you have no clue at all about the topic at hand, which you jumped into in order to try to dispute something that was correct and you aren’t smart enough to understand.
Good work by you. You must be tired.

you have an honesty problem.

 

[Ring 6]

you have an honesty problem.

Haha everything I said is 100% accurate. 100%. I know you don’t like that and wish it we’re not true so you have to recreate history and twist truths, but that’s on you.

I suppose you have finished trying to come up with specific examples to support your belief that the Bills players won’t pay their tax rates because “rich people manipulate their taxes”?

 

[Pape]

Haha everything I said is 100% accurate. 100%. I know you don’t like that and wish it we’re not true so you have to recreate history and twist truths, but that’s on you.

I suppose you have finished trying to come up with specific examples to support your belief that the Bills players won’t pay their tax rates because “rich people manipulate their taxes”?

Hey Pinocchio, hire a CPA. Put him to work. Get your answers.

If you have the means, it's not that difficult to offset gains. But why should I have to tell you this, you bury everyone's salaries, right?

Tax strategies are used to lessen the tax hit. If a signing bonus is paid to a player who lives in Florida, are they subject to ny taxes? I dunno. But it's a strategy. A player putting money 8nto a charitable foundation? Write off. Player investments into tangible holdings? Write off... Incorporation of self, paying hanger ones as employees .. strategy

I've already mentioned these. There are other things that can be done... It's a multi billion dollar business... It wouldn't be if it didn't bear fruit...

Same thing goes for corporations who have far more loopholes to work with...

 

[Ring 6]

Hey Pinocchio, hire a CPA. Put him to work. Get your answers.

If you have the means, it's not that difficult to offset gains. But why should I have to tell you this, you bury everyone's salaries, right?

Tax strategies are used to lessen the tax hit. If a signing bonus is paid to a player who lives in Florida, are they subject to ny taxes? I dunno. But it's a strategy. A player putting money 8nto a charitable foundation? Write off. Player investments into tangible holdings? Write off... Incorporation of self, paying hanger ones as employees .. strategy

I've already mentioned these. There are other things that can be done... It's a multi billion dollar business... It wouldn't be if it didn't bear fruit...

Same thing goes for corporations who have far more loopholes to work with...

I will answer each poor argument you make.

Offset gains? Huh? We are talking about the taxes paid on employment income. That’s not a “gain” to offset.

Players pay tax based upon where their games are, so NY collects tax on all of the income for games in Buffalo, for both teams. Now you know.
Contributing to a charity. So you are arguing that if a player donates $100,000 to a charity to save $40,000 in taxes that’s a great tax dodge? He has $60,000 less. Awesome plan.
What “tangible holding” reduces tax liability? Do you even know what you are trying to say?
How do you propose a player incorporates himself? How do you propose that avoids tax on their EMPLOYMENT INCOME? Again you come up with the genius idea of giving money away to save about 40% of it in taxes.
So that’s your great financial plan? Spend your money on tax deducticibke handouts so it costs you 2 1/2 times more? You do realize that if you put people on payroll you have to pay half of their ss tax, and you have to hire a payroll company. These could be the dumbest ideas ever.
Your argument adds up to this:
If I am self employed and earn 200,000 of profit, and must now pay $80,000 in taxes, you suggest that instead of netting $120,000 I should spend $100,000 on a tax deductible expense (give to charity, hire a “hanger on”) so I only have to pay $40,000 in tax. Thereby I now net $60,000. It only cost me 100k to save 40k, what a great idea, that will show the government. Jesus.

So you have nothing other than “there must be other ways”.

I hope you are realizing that your belief has been proven wrong by the fact that you cannot give a single viable way to “manipulate taxes” so you don’t pay the same tax structure as everyone else.
What’s your next plan? Suicide the day before taxes are due?

 

[Ring 6]

To add some context to this.
In fiscal 19-20 the State of NY collected 80.7 billion dollars in taxes.
The entire cost of this stadium is 0.7% of the revenue NY collects in a year. If the stadium has a life of 30 years, then it is 0.02% of the revenue collected in those years.
Per capita New Yorkers pay $4000 per year in taxes. This project would cost $2.97 per capita, or with a lifespan of 30 years, 10 cents per year per New Yorker.

 

[upstater]

Those are baseball stadiums used more than 100 times a year, how do you compare that to a team that plays 10 games a year. The ancillary tax earnings from neighborhood bars and restaurants, and not ten tailgate parties. The NY taxpayers have already financed 200 mill of repairs and upgrades for the bills over the last 25 years.

Those were Erie Co taxpayers not state taxpayers. The state has been earning many millions annually from the Bills without ever paying a dollar for it. I posted the independent analysis a while ago that shows what the state makes from taxes. Regardless the NFL is a lot more profitable than baseball. 100 times a year? Where did you come up with that? 80 times maybe considering double headers. But how many fans? It’s 20k versus 75k. Anyway no football stadium is worth it, but neither are the baseball stadiums. Downstate has not argument here

 

[upstater]

To add some context to this.
In fiscal 19-20 the State of NY collected 80.7 billion dollars in taxes.
The entire cost of this stadium is 0.7% of the revenue NY collects in a year. If the stadium has a life of 30 years, then it is 0.02% of the revenue collected in those years.
Per capita New Yorkers pay $4000 per year in taxes. This project would cost $2.97 per capita, or with a lifespan of 30 years, 10 cents per year per New Yorker.

You have to add to that the Seneca casino money which is not a part of the annual budget. There was a $600 m kitty that they dumped into the stadium. I know it could be used to offset taxes but I’m saying that the money was over and above the annual budget. One could argue that the Gov could have given every taxpayer a $3 cut instead.

 

[Ring 6]

You have to add to that the Seneca casino money which is not a part of the annual budget. There was a $600 m kitty that they dumped into the stadium. I know it could be used to offset taxes but I’m saying that the money was over and above the annual budget. One could argue that the Gov could have given every taxpayer a $3 cut instead.

But not really because they will get every penny and more back because the difference in tax revenue with the Bills in NY vs somewhere else is more than the cost of the stadium.

 

[Pape]

I will answer each poor argument you make.

Offset gains? Huh? We are talking about the taxes paid on employment income. That’s not a “gain” to offset.

Players pay tax based upon where their games are, so NY collects tax on all of the income for games in Buffalo, for both teams. Now you know.
Contributing to a charity. So you are arguing that if a player donates $100,000 to a charity to save $40,000 in taxes that’s a great tax dodge? He has $60,000 less. Awesome plan.
What “tangible holding” reduces tax liability? Do you even know what you are trying to say?
How do you propose a player incorporates himself? How do you propose that avoids tax on their EMPLOYMENT INCOME? Again you come up with the genius idea of giving money away to save about 40% of it in taxes.
So that’s your great financial plan? Spend your money on tax deducticibke handouts so it costs you 2 1/2 times more? You do realize that if you put people on payroll you have to pay half of their ss tax, and you have to hire a payroll company. These could be the dumbest ideas ever.
Your argument adds up to this:
If I am self employed and earn 200,000 of profit, and must now pay $80,000 in taxes, you suggest that instead of netting $120,000 I should spend $100,000 on a tax deductible expense (give to charity, hire a “hanger on”) so I only have to pay $40,000 in tax. Thereby I now net $60,000. It only cost me 100k to save 40k, what a great idea, that will show the government. Jesus.

So you have nothing other than “there must be other ways”.

I hope you are realizing that your belief has been proven wrong by the fact that you cannot give a single viable way to “manipulate taxes” so you don’t pay the same tax structure as everyone else.
What’s your next plan? Suicide the day before taxes are due?

wow...

so you get your paycheck, with your w2 withholding box checked, file your taxes with no thought to write offs or anything. and what, wait on a refund?

I mean, really? you don't have any type of investments set up to offset your "salary", if 7.50 an hour + a paid lunch break can be called a salary? for a guy who claims to make more money than anyone here, you have a stunning lack of financial literacy and a complete lack of understanding of what i'm talking about...

H&R block and / or turbo tax are not your friend... you need to talk to real honest to god tax attorneys, cpas, investment advisors etc... There are a slew of professionals who do this stuff for a living... or not... you want to pay more than you have to? bully for you, i guess...

If you are a professional athlete there are plenty of methods to offset income... legit deductions & expenses, investment vehicles to shield your income... think Brady wasn't able to write off a significant chunk of his income with the start up costs of TB12?

Its shocking how stupid you are (edit - no, its not, in retrospect)... This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to estate planning and asset management... google wont give you the answers you are looking for... every single one of your responses is a reiteration of canned crap you find on the first page of a google search...

 

[Ring 6]

wow...

so you get your paycheck, with your w2 withholding box checked, file your taxes with no thought to write offs or anything. and what, wait on a refund?

I mean, really? you don't have any type of investments set up to offset your "salary", if 7.50 an hour + a paid lunch break can be called a salary? for a guy who claims to make more money than anyone here, you have a stunning lack of financial literacy and a complete lack of understanding of what i'm talking about...

H&R block and / or turbo tax are not your friend... you need to talk to real honest to god tax attorneys, cpas, investment advisors etc... There are a slew of professionals who do this stuff for a living... or not... you want to pay more than you have to? bully for you, i guess...

If you are a professional athlete there are plenty of methods to offset income... legit deductions & expenses, investment vehicles to shield your income... think Brady wasn't able to write off a significant chunk of his income with the start up costs of TB12?

Its shocking how stupid you are (edit - no, its not, in retrospect)... This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to estate planning and asset management... google wont give you the answers you are looking for... every single one of your responses is a reiteration of canned crap you find on the first page of a google search...

Your lack of understanding of this is shocking.
You keep acting like there are these magical ways that you can’t seem to name.

Investments do not “offset” your income. My maxed out 401k contribution reduces my taxable income. My ira contribution is not tax deductible because I make too much. Investment losses can offset investment gains, but that does not “offset” my salary.

Now you just again tried to imply my income is feeble, but I GUARANTEE it is more than yours, so you are insulting yourself. Same as the other guy compare W2, lower guy stops posting here. If you are scared of that bet you look like a clown pretending you think my income sucks. I didn’t claim to make more money than anyone here, I challenged you that I make more than you. Do you accept?

Tax attorneys, CPA’s, investment advisors cannot reduce your tax on your earnings. They can help you plan to MITIGATE the tax you pay on investments, estates and the sale of assets.
Please give me one example of how any of them can reduce the tax you pay in your employment income, that isn’t done by giving away more than you save or creating a loss of more than you save.

You keep saying “plenty” and you cannot name one.
You can’t say athletes have plenty of ways when you cannot name any.
But let’s look at what you said.
Legit deductions and expenses. What are they? Employees cannot deduct expenses incurred at work. What exact expense do you think an athlete can deduct that you can’t? Name one. And if your answer is they can give money away so they lose 100% of the money to save 40% of if you are truly an idiot.
What investment vehicles “shield your income”? Please explain how you can use an investment to not count your employment income as taxable, other than a 401k. Tax advantaged investments can DEFER the tax ability of the income and some (such as municipal bonds) are not taxable. That has nothing to do with reducing the tax you Kay on your employment income.

Brady. Here you go again. You are implying that Brady put money into a company to have a loss to reduce his overall income. Think this through. If he spent $4,000,000 in expenses to start a company and showed a $4,000,000 loss at a 50% tax bracket he threw away 4 mill ti save 2. Do you think he is stupid? Do you think you are cheating the tax man by pissing away money so you save paying taxes on it? You piss away double what you save.


You keep throwing out estate planning. Do you know what estate planning is? If you do please explain what method of estate planning would reduce your current reportable employment income.
Asset management by definition manages your ASSETS it does not reduce your taxable income.

Let’s try one more time.
Josh Allen is paid $15,000,000
He must pay tax on that after taking all of the same deductions everyone in America can.
Please tell me the deductions from income SPECIFICALLY that he can take that everyone else cannot.
He filed a 1040. You can look up 1040 and all the applicable schedules and see everything that applies. You so far have name a grand total of ZERO.

 

[Ring 6]

wow...

so you get your paycheck, with your w2 withholding box checked, file your taxes with no thought to write offs or anything. and what, wait on a refund?

I mean, really? you don't have any type of investments set up to offset your "salary", if 7.50 an hour + a paid lunch break can be called a salary? for a guy who claims to make more money than anyone here, you have a stunning lack of financial literacy and a complete lack of understanding of what i'm talking about...

H&R block and / or turbo tax are not your friend... you need to talk to real honest to god tax attorneys, cpas, investment advisors etc... There are a slew of professionals who do this stuff for a living... or not... you want to pay more than you have to? bully for you, i guess...

If you are a professional athlete there are plenty of methods to offset income... legit deductions & expenses, investment vehicles to shield your income... think Brady wasn't able to write off a significant chunk of his income with the start up costs of TB12?

Its shocking how stupid you are (edit - no, its not, in retrospect)... This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to estate planning and asset management... google wont give you the answers you are looking for... every single one of your responses is a reiteration of canned crap you find on the first page of a google search...

Let’s try this a different way. What do YOU write off. Specifically.
And what do you think you could write off if you were an athlete that you can’t now?