Man in Motion Plays

[Jim Beankie]

As a track nut, one thing I feel that offenses aren't taking full advantage of is the man in motion, since acceleration takes a ton of time. The fastest sprinters in the world would probably take (not including reaction time) 1.9s in full pads/cleats to go straight line from 0-10yds but only take 1.1s from 10-20yds. That doesn't include extra time needed to fight through press man coverage if needed.

What if receivers were all loaded on one side (like Trips) and an off the line receiver (TE/WR/RB) starts moving in a fast sprint parallel to the line of scrimmage (like a jet/fly sweep) but will start the turn downfield past the OL/TE immediately after the snap (in basically a wheel route)? It can be predetermined as part of the play to turn at the hash, in between, or at the numbers. The receiver would make this turn "blind/deaf," so the timing by the QB would have to be great so as not to get an illegal motion penalty. The goal would be to get to a predetermined spot via an arc (to keep speed as high as possible) and because going at high speed would avoid any press.

My thinking is that really tall guys (6'2" and taller especially) have a tendency to have a much slower acceleration (except for the greatest freak in history Usain at 6'4" - although he's had his fair share of not so great acceleration). A head start would help these guys (like Jonnu/Hunter/N'Keal/Jakobi - although I have no idea how Jakobi is 3rd in speed at 1sec post snap - I wonder if it includes motion plays since Bourne, who's 1st, does a lot of them). Receivers tend to be at ~10mph at best 1sec post snap, but with a head start, can get to ~17mph. That means they'd be able to get to the 10yd mark at the sidelines if they turn at 10' past the hash in ~2.75s (70'), and since a throw from shotgun would take a pinch over 1.5s to get to that spot (90' throw), that's barely a second in the QB's hands. Heck, since acceleration to max really takes 50-60yds, someone like Jonnu who can get up to close to 21mph, may take less time to get there.

For defensive looks, can't imagine Jonnu (*if he can catch it) with his speed getting beat to the spot. If 2 safeties, I'd think they'd both be favoring where the 3 receivers are lined up.

Don't want to get into all the scenarios (chess match) in the opening post, but what do y'all think? Am I missing something glaring?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Interesting question. I think arena football and the XFL had plays like this.

1. Is something like this better than a future slot option-route WR like we had in Welker or Edelman?
2. If this becomes really successful could it be defended by having a defender placed on that side and just laterally move to where the WR starts running upfield in order to bump them ?

 

[Jim Beankie]

Interesting question. I think arena football and the XFL had plays like this.

1. Is something like this better than a future slot option-route WR like we had in Welker or Edelman?
2. If this becomes really successful could it be defended by having a defender placed on that side and just laterally move to where the WR starts running upfield in order to bump them ?

1. I mean ideally it'd be good to have something like this sporadically and that. The goal is to get a potential receiver further downfield in less time - conservative estimate would be at least 5yds further. Someone with incredible top end speed (like a Mostert when healthy) would benefit greatly. Also, the QB could potentially quickly move to the next read if it doesn't look like it'll work because it should be obvious a second after the snap.

2. Good question - after seeing it once, I fully expect that to happen. The DB would have to run behind the LBs most of the time, so he may be over 5yds past LoS already. If the defender runs in front of the LBs, then I can see the potential for chucking the receiver - the question is what's the difference in top end speed and exploit the matchup. If the DB/LB is going at full speed, then it's a question of leverage.

This is what I imagine without a WR on the left side:



What your 2) would look like (note that the thing I don't like about the jet sweep is the runner usually ends up at least 4yds behind LoS before making forward progress ):

 

[Jim Beankie]

Probably won't happen due to the timing of the snap, but if a defender tries to go between the line and the LBs, then something like this might happen:

 

[PP2]

As a track nut, one thing I feel that offenses aren't taking full advantage of is the man in motion, since acceleration takes a ton of time. The fastest sprinters in the world would probably take (not including reaction time) 1.9s in full pads/cleats to go straight line from 0-10yds but only take 1.1s from 10-20yds. That doesn't include extra time needed to fight through press man coverage if needed.

What if receivers were all loaded on one side (like Trips) and an off the line receiver (TE/WR/RB) starts moving in a fast sprint parallel to the line of scrimmage (like a jet/fly sweep) but will start the turn downfield past the OL/TE immediately after the snap (in basically a wheel route)? It can be predetermined as part of the play to turn at the hash, in between, or at the numbers. The receiver would make this turn "blind/deaf," so the timing by the QB would have to be great so as not to get an illegal motion penalty. The goal would be to get to a predetermined spot via an arc (to keep speed as high as possible) and because going at high speed would avoid any press.

My thinking is that really tall guys (6'2" and taller especially) have a tendency to have a much slower acceleration (except for the greatest freak in history Usain at 6'4" - although he's had his fair share of not so great acceleration). A head start would help these guys (like Jonnu/Hunter/N'Keal/Jakobi - although I have no idea how Jakobi is 3rd in speed at 1sec post snap - I wonder if it includes motion plays since Bourne, who's 1st, does a lot of them). Receivers tend to be at ~10mph at best 1sec post snap, but with a head start, can get to ~17mph. That means they'd be able to get to the 10yd mark at the sidelines if they turn at 10' past the hash in ~2.75s (70'), and since a throw from shotgun would take a pinch over 1.5s to get to that spot (90' throw), that's barely a second in the QB's hands. Heck, since acceleration to max really takes 50-60yds, someone like Jonnu who can get up to close to 21mph, may take less time to get there.

For defensive looks, can't imagine Jonnu (*if he can catch it) with his speed getting beat to the spot. If 2 safeties, I'd think they'd both be favoring where the 3 receivers are lined up.

Don't want to get into all the scenarios (chess match) in the opening post, but what do y'all think? Am I missing something glaring?

View attachment 39325

Are you talking about a jet sweep towards the trips side?

 

[SlowGettingUp]

I think arena football and the XFL had plays like this.

Don't CFL/AFL allow motion towards the line of scrimmage? That's a whole different ball game.

The guys that are slow to accelerate are likely also slow to change direction, so maybe this doesn't buy you much at all. Going to stress the knee a lot too if they try to change direction too quickly.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Are you talking about a jet sweep towards the trips side?

Away from the trips side. It just looks like it, but the snap would come after the receiver passes the QB - probably as late as close to the numbers, but that'd be a hard turn at full speed.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Don't CFL/AFL allow motion towards the line of scrimmage? That's a whole different ball game.

The guys that are slow to accelerate are likely also slow to change direction, so maybe this doesn't buy you much at all. Going to stress the knee a lot too if they try to change direction too quickly.

Yes - good point - I'd thought about the knees with this one (as someone with a bad knee), so I mentioned a run on a long arc. The reason why I've been posting jet sweep videos is because it'd be similar to what a route may look like, except the turn to move forward would be 1.5-2yds behind the LoS instead of 4yds back (which seems to be consistent with all the jet sweep videos I've watched).

 

[PP2]

Away from the trips side. It just looks like it, but the snap would come after the receiver passes the QB - probably as late as close to the numbers, but that'd be a hard turn at full speed.

Then that's simply a jet motion carrying over to a wheel route.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Then that's simply a jet motion carrying over to a wheel route.

Just curious what's the latest you've seen the ball snapped for this? I could've sworn I remember one in the last few years but that was immediately after the receiver passed the QB. I wonder how far the receiver is allowed to run before turning presnap.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Only (far from ideal) examples I can find. Probably not popular for a reason. Oh well. Thanks for humoring me everyone.

 

[PP2]

Just curious what's the latest you've seen the ball snapped for this? I could've sworn I remember one in the last few years but that was immediately after the receiver passed the QB. I wonder how far the receiver is allowed to run before turning presnap.

Per the rule of illegal motion, he can pretty much run anywhere as long as he is running parallel to the line of scrimmage. At no point must he be advancing towards it pre-snap.

That rule was designed to prevent an offensive player from getting a running start on the defense.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

I think the bottom line here is that any advantage you get from a running start parallel to the line of scrimmage is offset by having to start some yards further back.

 

[Jim Beankie]

I think the bottom line here is that any advantage you get from a running start parallel to the line of scrimmage is offset by having to start some yards further back.

True compared to the receivers who are on the line. For those who have to be off the line, anyway, I can see this as being advantageous.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Sigh... 1st time I've noticed this being done in the NFL according to how I'd want to it to be run and it's against the Pats with Tua to Waddle.

 

[Jim Beankie]

This article popped up in my inbox. Took them long enough. If a numbnut like me who's never played real football in his life (but was seemingly impossible to catch in flag if I could actually catch the ball) can think of this crap, then it was just a matter of time. Just the concept of getting a player head start in acceleration, which I alluded to, is the key. It's crazy how somewhat close my calcs were when I said, "Receivers tend to be at ~10mph at best 1sec post snap, but with a head start, can get to ~17mph." The note about having Puka utilize this is perfect, since he's got really good top end speed but can take some time to get there (1.62 10yd / 4.56 40yd). That being said, how is this new stuff?

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The combination of the rub and Hill’s running start makes it almost impossible for a defender to regain proper leverage or make meaningful contact. According to Amazon/Next Gen Stats, which analyzed this clip using its in-game player tracking technology, Hill reached 7.71 miles per hour as the ball was snapped and 16.04 mph as he crossed the line of scrimmage. Hill’s maximum speed on the play was 18.98 mph — so he reached near top speed right off of the line.

“If we’re able to use our speed vertically without allowing the (defensive back) to get hands on us, that helps us a lot,” Hill said in December. “Remember, offense is about timing and placement of the ball. If a (defensive back) is allowed to get his hand on us, dictate us or push us off our landmark … the play is dead at that point.”

It is difficult for defenders to pass off help to one another pre-snap against “cheat” like they sometimes can with a longer motion. Help has to happen post-snap and at speed, and there are other eligible receivers to defend, making it more disruptive to an NFL defense than typical motion plays.
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Over seemingly endless reps last summer, Tagovailoa and the offense timed the concept so that the motion player could legally cut upfield right at the snap. As a shorter motion, “cheat” requires a different pre-snap sequence and post-snap dropback, both of which can change further depending on the route pairing. Eventually, the Dolphins ran the concept in a joint practice with the Falcons in mid-August, the closest they could get to running it in a game-like scenario while still keeping the motion a relative secret. And secrecy was important.
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“You’ve got to get hands on them as quick as you can,” McManus said. “Whether someone, now, starts running with that guy as he’s in motion, doing that exit motion, and just buries him into the sideline. … You’ve got to try to blow it up some way. I can see them start getting more physical with it, but you are (still) taking the chance that somebody will go right past you.”
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The Rams utilize motion in their pass and run game with a variety of receivers and tight ends (so do the 49ers, Packers and others). These motions do everything from switching the front and back sides of formations, creating space and leverage for speed players, disguising run concepts and possibly even disguising a quarterback’s “can” — an alert to audible to the second or third of multiple plays sent through the headset pre-snap.
And sometimes these motions do all this at once.
In the Rams’ passing game, motion can help disguise roles on a given play. Receivers can run motions that make defenders believe they will behave like a fullback or tight end based on alignment, then run a typical receiver’s route after the snap.
“What Mike McDaniel has been doing in Miami, everybody is copying it,” LaFleur said in early November. “What the Rams are doing with guys like Puka (Nacua), they’re essentially getting him in a position and then he becomes a fullback, yet he might run a deep over on you …
“It definitely has changed the game quite substantially, in my opinion.”

How one motion play swept through the NFL in 2023: 'Everybody is copying it'

With the help of technology and a generation of coaches and players driven toward innovation, new ideas spread faster than ever.

theathletic.com

 

[Pape]

As a track nut, one thing I feel that offenses aren't taking full advantage of is the man in motion, since acceleration takes a ton of time. The fastest sprinters in the world would probably take (not including reaction time) 1.9s in full pads/cleats to go straight line from 0-10yds but only take 1.1s from 10-20yds. That doesn't include extra time needed to fight through press man coverage if needed.

What if receivers were all loaded on one side (like Trips) and an off the line receiver (TE/WR/RB) starts moving in a fast sprint parallel to the line of scrimmage (like a jet/fly sweep) but will start the turn downfield past the OL/TE immediately after the snap (in basically a wheel route)? It can be predetermined as part of the play to turn at the hash, in between, or at the numbers. The receiver would make this turn "blind/deaf," so the timing by the QB would have to be great so as not to get an illegal motion penalty. The goal would be to get to a predetermined spot via an arc (to keep speed as high as possible) and because going at high speed would avoid any press.

My thinking is that really tall guys (6'2" and taller especially) have a tendency to have a much slower acceleration (except for the greatest freak in history Usain at 6'4" - although he's had his fair share of not so great acceleration). A head start would help these guys (like Jonnu/Hunter/N'Keal/Jakobi - although I have no idea how Jakobi is 3rd in speed at 1sec post snap - I wonder if it includes motion plays since Bourne, who's 1st, does a lot of them). Receivers tend to be at ~10mph at best 1sec post snap, but with a head start, can get to ~17mph. That means they'd be able to get to the 10yd mark at the sidelines if they turn at 10' past the hash in ~2.75s (70'), and since a throw from shotgun would take a pinch over 1.5s to get to that spot (90' throw), that's barely a second in the QB's hands. Heck, since acceleration to max really takes 50-60yds, someone like Jonnu who can get up to close to 21mph, may take less time to get there.

For defensive looks, can't imagine Jonnu (*if he can catch it) with his speed getting beat to the spot. If 2 safeties, I'd think they'd both be favoring where the 3 receivers are lined up.

Don't want to get into all the scenarios (chess match) in the opening post, but what do y'all think? Am I missing something glaring?

View attachment 39325

prescient

 

[Hyped]

Holy old thread, Batman!

Yup, Tyreek Hill man....