How Belichick lost his place in posterity

[Ian]

I don't believe I am. I think that what's happened is any criticism leveled at Belichick is ardently defended by his sycophants.

Nobody that's serious claims that Brady was the ONLY reason for the dynasty. It's a matter of how much each contributed. Nobody will ever agree on the percentages so they turn the discussion into ALL or NOTHING. It's dumb.

I'd agree with that. My defense is to push back on the people who feel it was minimal. And there is a lot of that, unfortunately.

I think we're going to find out moving forward what the difference was because Bill put together so many game plans defensively that stymied opponents and gave them the chance to grab a lead and/or win games some thought they couldn't. When you have a guy like Brady, who could adapt insanely well and obviously could make the plays on offense, that changes everything. We saw first-hand that when you don't even have a quality starter, those game plans mean nothing if you can't score.

My fear with Mayo is going to be seeing if he's able to do the same things against top competition, with the hope that obviously they end up in a better position offensively to at least be competitive. Although, I'm worried they won't be able to stop people at the same rate. Bill's brain is going to be hard to replace. But at the same time, if the talent level on offense increases, maybe it will be a wash...but it's obviously tough to say right now with so many unknowns.

But you can't go another 20 years not being able to draft skill players in this league, especially now. Eliot Wolf's record drafting guys is pretty impressive, so I'm curious to see if this "collaborative" effort they have with this personnel group, scouts, etc. yields better results. Can't afford another Tyquan Thornton...albeit, he's bulked up significantly (which I'm assuming was at their directive) so we'll see if that finally translates for him in year 3.

 

[venecol]

I would say Kirk Cousins-ish. That's sort of the mid benchmark to get you 10 or so wins most years, but then they'll crash in the postseason barring a defense that can hold the opponent. (Kirk through short of the sticks on 4th down last January ... just unreal). A lot of guys just don't do well in the spotlight, whether it's the coach of the QB. Feels like there are definitely very few QBs, based on what we've seen.

OK, Cousins is probably a top 10 (maybe 12) QB. So, you believe that an elite HC can only have winning seasons w/ a top 10-12 QB. I think you are wrong, but it'll take time to research this. If you are right, I'll show the research that proves your point.

I said this to someone else, but with Brady's retirement, Rivers, Brees, etc., the league is slowly regressing QB-wise. I'm not overly thrilled with most guys coming out, and feel like we're going to start seeing more and more mediocre play unless the league does more to help teams develop young QBs.

Rich Eisen talked about that last week and Bucky Brooks said something similar, and I do feel like there's something to that. They can't all be absolutely terrible...or at least you'd have to try and believe that wasn't the case.

Agree.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Those numbers are accurate.

Yes, they are.

Mahomes is playing for a guy who is among the top coaches and best offensive minds in the league, and a future Hall of Fame coach.

They are. Again, people are absolutely downplaying Belichick's effect during the Brady era, hence the entire debate to begin with.

His resume - ie: what he did as a coordinator, which landed him HOF recognition - is what got him his head coaching opportunity in Cleveland. That again, was discussed and the documentary outlined it. We all agreed ten-ish years ago that he got hosed and that it was a brutal situation. Now here we are after he parted ways with Brady, and all of a sudden he was a lousy coach in Cleveland again.

Again, any coach is a terrible coach without a good QB. Sean Payton is dealing with it now. Jimmy Johnson had the same issue without Aikman in Miami. It just is what it is. Belichick just happened to take it a step further with horrible personnel decisions, and I would argue that his handling of his own staff didn't do him any favors, especially when they all bailed with Josh and left him with nothing but the plan they put together ahead of 2022.

So I absolutely believe he was responsible for the end result. But calling him mediocre is just puzzling. We all lived the moments when he had a solid QB. But not having a good one will submarine even the best coaches. And it remains to be seen how long Payton will survive where he is if he ultimately joins Bill and strikes out next month.

You can also add that the great Don Shula who a lot of posters compare to Bill had two great QB's and won how many Super Bowls?

 

[Ian]

You can also add that the great Don Shula who a lot of posters compare to Bill had two great QB's and won how many Super Bowls?

I'll give Tomlin credit. I don't like him, but they've done a good job in Pittsburgh developing QBs. After what happened here, definitely feel like that's an underrated thing after everything we've seen.

 

[Ian]

OK, Cousins is probably a top 10 (maybe 12) QB. So, you believe that an elite HC can only have winning seasons w/ a top 10-12 QB. I think you are wrong, but it'll take time to research this. If you are right, I'll show the research that proves your point.


Agree.

If you want to slide down the chart a bit, I would put a Chad Pennington-type player in the category of a guy who might be able to get you through and surprise some people with an elite coach. He was a decent QB before he got hurt. Not the best arm, but I don't recall seeing him do a lot of dumb things. As for present-day... good question, I'd have to think about it.

You sort of also can't win without decent talent around them, ie, they really need receiver help and decent skill players. Obviously, Tua was pretty awful until he got some help. And there are others but I'm a little tired, but I think most people agree that young QBs need more support the way this game is played right now.

 

[vicspats]

I've never used the word "minimal." Not once.

I've always said it took both of them to have the success the Patriots had during those two decades. I'm a players fan. Others are fans of coaches. I believe that Brady was responsible for the majority of the success, because of his contributions both "on" and "off" the field. We can disagree on percentages, but it took both.

Honest question, to what age and level of team sports did you compete at?

 

[HSanders]

Nobody will ever agree on the percentages so they turn the discussion into ALL or NOTHING. It's dumb.

now that i agree with.

 

[Vindicate]

Honestly, I'm afraid to see how the defense might regress. I hope someone else caught up to Belichick's level of diagnosing games. That being said, Mayo was always heavily trusted by Belichick and it's easy (for me) to forget things like this:

BB explaining the decision to trade down from the #7 to the #10 pick in 2008: “He is a pretty versatile player, did a lot of things down at Tennessee. Played inside, played outside, played in sub defense, played in the kicking game. He is a smart kid, runs well, pretty physical player and I think he will be a great addition to our football team. Where that fits, we will have to wait and see and how that goes with all the other players on our team.”

BB on Mayo's retirement as a player: "I'll start out this morning, first of all, to talk about Jerod Mayo," Belichick said. "There have been very few players in my career that I've had the opportunity to coach that I'd say had more of an impact on a team than Jerod has from day one, which is unusual."

I wanted to find more, but honestly, finding quotes from Belichick on Mayo in a post-game is proving difficult as I'm only generating results from recent stories - however there was a story from Pats Pulpit back in 2012 that suggested Belichick heaped more praise than usual onto Mayo. He also had suggested to Mayo that he should become a coach for awhile.

But Belichick's game planning was otherworldly. He is effectively the House of football, for better and for worse.

 

[venecol]

The Defense and offense worked hand and hand.

01 Patriots
16-13 over Raiders offense pulls weight

24-17 over Steelers. a blocked kick returned for a td and a punt return for a td. Yeah, we needed the defense/special teams group for that one. Offense pulls weight

20-17 over Rams. A interception return for a td. Forced fumbles, Again defense is important. Offense pulls weight.

03 Patriots

17-14 over Titans. Shut down Co Mvp. Offense pulls weight

24-14 over Colts. 4 interceptions, 4 sacks and a safety by the defense. 5 fgs from AV. Offense pulls weight.

32-29 over Carolina. Barn burner. Brady arrives and puts himself in elite category.

04 Patriots

20-3 over Colts. Shuts down the 49 td thrower. Asante drops interception in end zone that lost shutout. Go figure. Offense pulled its weight.

41-27 over Steelers. Obviously offense is clicking and defense is doing what it can to avenge the Halloween loss.

24-21 over Eagles. Great game offense did what was needed, defense forced turnovers. And Andy Reid and clock management wins the day.

2001 Defense 5th in points allowed
2003 Defense 1st in points allowed
2004 Defense 3rd in point allowed

2001 Offense 5th in scoring
2003 Offense 12th in scoring
2004 Offense 4th in scoring

At the end it doesn’t matter because it was the perfect storm. I didn’t even get into the plus minus because it didn’t bode well for the rest of the league. Tbh though, I never saw the offense exceeding it’s own weight. First half was primarily defense. But it’s mute because Brady was always able to score more points than the other team when needed depending on the circumstances. That’s why it was a dynasty. A combination of players and coaches doing the job.

Here's what I meant about the O carrying its own weight, for the most part.

 

[venecol]

 

[venecol]

So you are saying that Dungy was a great coach who was a defensive genius who was run out of town by an evil owner and now the fans hate the owner? Now I get it. Very interesting, I just don't see how this is comparable to the Patriots and BB.

It's not. I'm not the one that brought Dungy up. You can thank Ian for that one. Dungy was a better coach in Tpa than Gruden, except for the SB, of course, which is all anyone looks at, for obvious reasons.

 

[Ian]

LOL, Dungy was fired after multiple years of failing to live up to expectations with a talented team. He was not the general manager and did not develop the roster. Your post would actually make sense if you stated that Bruce Allen won with Rich McKay's team. Unfortunately that doesn't work as well for your purposes.

It's not. I'm not the one that brought Dungy up. You can thank Ian for that one. Dungy was a better coach in Tpa than Gruden, except for the SB, of course, which is all anyone looks at, for obvious reasons.

Dungy is your classic “great in the regular season but can’t handle the heat in January” coach. Wasn’t until Manning fully peaked that he finally won a ring and it was only because he faced a weak Patriots team that still would have beaten him if they hadn’t all had the flu. And they faced one of the worst NFC teams to come out that I can remember that year given how not so great that Bears team was.

As I mentioned, the better coaches shine in January, and that’s why Dungy was always rarely among the last ones standing.

 

[venecol]

Honest question, to what age and level of team sports did you compete at?

Indoor broad jumping. Through college. Kept it going until I got married.

 

[ahmed]

Forced to become a Bucs fan means you probly never was a Patriots fan. Just jumped on board after a couple of Super Bowls. Plenty of kids and women in my old neighborhood jumped on board after a few years as well. I just thought it was a bad fad. I couldn’t Imagine rooting for the Yankees or the Habs. Jeezus Murphy mother and Joseph!!! Makes my blood boil to watch the Habs even today and they haven’t been relevant in 40 years. Hey but what do I know ..

So I was just pretending to be a Pats fan for a couple of decades? Such a genius; how did I not think of that?

I watched as many Bucs games so I could watch the last games of Brady. Don't care if your special concept of fandom can't handle it.

 

[venecol]

Dungy is your classic “great in the regular season but can’t handle the heat in January” coach. Wasn’t until Manning fully peaked that he finally won a ring and it was only because he faced a weak Patriots team that still would have beaten him if they hadn’t all had the flu. And they faced one of the worst NFC teams to come out that I can remember that year given how not so great that Bears team was.

As I mentioned, the better coaches shine in January, and that’s why Dungy was always rarely among the last ones standing.

Dungy had a winning record in Tampa (.563), with only 1 losing season (his 1st) in 6 years. He made the playoffs in 4 of those 6 seasons with the likes of Trent Dilfer, Shaun King and Brad Johnson (1 yr, his last), none of which were considered top QBs. Johnson was a decent QB, but not the year he played for Dungy. None of those QBs were anywhere close to Cousins level.

So that's one example of a HOF HC that had multiple winning seasons and playoff wins w/o a #10 ranked QB. Thanks for saving me the research. Lol

 

[signbabybrady]

I've never used the word "minimal." Not once.

I've always said it took both of them to have the success the Patriots had during those two decades. I'm a players fan. Others are fans of coaches. I believe that Brady was responsible for the majority of the success, because of his contributions both "on" and "off" the field. We can disagree on percentages, but it took both.

Oh please you can STFU with this crap. Your a huge fan of coaches when it serves your agenda. Example you are a huge **** Rhebein fan.

You've spewed this crap before about "always said it took both of them to have the success" just throwing out an off hand line like this doesn't make it true you rarely actually give Bill credit for anything.

It's not enough for you to divide the forum with your BB vs Brady BS now it's fans of players or fans of coaches. Most people on here are fans of good football and respect what the QB brings to the table as well as the coaches all the way down to guys like Slater and Scott O'Brien.

 

[venecol]

 

[1960Pats]

Vince Lombardi did not win a championship without Bart Starr.
Maybe it should be the Starr Trophy.

Starr had two losing seasons out of three after Lombardi was gone.

 

[1960Pats]

I agree, it was beautiful. I'd add the owner shrewd enough to trade a 1st for a coach with a losing record, and ballsy enough to support him starting a 6th round pick over his 100m QB. Perfect storm of QB, HC and owner.

I don't credit Kraft for the football decisions that were made by Bill.

My ranking of on-field importance for any team is in the order of players, GMs, coaches and owners, with owners way down the list.

 

[1960Pats]

Everyone was outraged we didn’t make the playoffs that year (literally everyone in here was mad about going 11-5 and not making it). Suddenly, we have people treating that season like it was meaningless and a terrible year. It’s bizarre.

I'm still pissed about it. And I blame the ridiculous four division set up, which actually rewards the worst division by guaranteeing them a spot no matter how poor of a record they have.