First 4-years of earnings for Butler

[XLIX]

He was being offered $28 million dollars, with a bunch of it GUARANTEED. He had ZERO guarantees without accepting the offer.

I don't think you're following very well.

There were NO guarantees. The Patriots were offering SOME guarantees when they didn't need to offer him ANYTHING. And they were offering a hell of a lot of money. $28 million isn't chump change, especially for a guy who entered the league as an UDFA.

What he entered the league as is completely irrelevant. Why do so many people in here think he should act like he owes the Patriots some sort of favor based on past events??? The Patriots don't act that way in negotiations, so why should a player?

Ignoring the fact that you have no idea what, specifically, he was being offered, and you have no idea what GUARANTEED money he was offered, fact is he faced a decision which countless athletes in all sports have faced at one time or another: Take some guaranteed up front money or take a chance on his own skills and hit a far, far larger payday later on.

There is no single right or wrong answer. Each athlete is an individual with individual priorities. For Butler, I don't blame him one bit for turning down $28 million (assuming that is what he was offered). His next deal will be twice that (if not more).

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

One played over 96% of snaps. And the other 21.9%. That's how the business works

 

[ivanvamp]

What he entered the league as is completely irrelevant. Why do so many people in here think he should act like he owes the Patriots some sort of favor based on past events??? The Patriots don't act that way in negotiations, so why should a player?

Ignoring the fact that you have no idea what, specifically, he was being offered, and you have no idea what GUARANTEED money he was offered, fact is he faced a decision which countless athletes in all sports have faced at one time or another: Take some guaranteed up front money or take a chance on his own skills and hit a far, far larger payday later on.

There is no single right or wrong answer. Each athlete is an individual with individual priorities. For Butler, I don't blame him one bit for turning down $28 million (assuming that is what he was offered). His next deal will be twice that (if not more).

When he entered the league has EVERYTHING to do with it. It's why great rookie players make peanuts while mediocre veterans make a lot more.

The Pats didn't have to offer him 4/28 because they could have kept him for three years for a lot less money. They offered him security and a hell of a lot of money long before they needed to.

He took a chance that his body would hold up and that he'd play at a high level so that he could cash in more down the road.

So far, he's held up and played well. But he still has another two years to go before becoming a UFA so he's not out of the woods yet.

The notion that what the Patriots offered him was "screwing" him is totally laughable.

 

[RIpats88]

If butler wants top 10 cb money he just has to play out the tag and hit Free agency next year. Its that simple.

And he agrees to something around 9-10million a year this year im sure the pats would match it because he will likely get 13-15 next year.

But no team is going to pay him top cb $ with the collateral they will have to give up

 

[mihap]

A word?????

Is that like a voice in your head?

Why don't you not act silly and deal with FACTS?

.

?
Facts. Do you know facts? You mean sources? You take sources as facts?

 

[XLIX]

When he entered the league has EVERYTHING to do with it. It's why great rookie players make peanuts while mediocre veterans make a lot more.

You clearly didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say WHEN he entered the league is irrelevant. Obviously that matters a great deal because, with only 3 years accrued, he is a RFA instead of a UFA.

What I am saying is the fact that he was undrafted but the Patriots gave him a chance and gave him a lot of money for an undrafted guy is completely irrelevant.

The Pats didn't have to offer him 4/28 because they could have kept him for three years for a lot less money. They offered him security and a hell of a lot of money long before they needed to.

And he declined it because he knew there was far, far more money waiting for him down the road.

So far, he's held up and played well. But he still has another two years to go before becoming a UFA so he's not out of the woods yet.

He has, at most, 1 year left before becoming a UFA. The Patriots are not franchising him.

Please do keep up, k?

The notion that what the Patriots offered him was "screwing" him is totally laughable.

No more laughable than the notion that taking 4/$28 would have been a smart move.

 

[shmessy]

?
Facts. Do you know facts? You mean sources? You take sources as facts?

Is this a joke?

This is your previous joke of a post:

"Actually it was a word that he will hold out in preseason last year. The word was that he wanted contract but got nothing from Pats IIRC. Couple days ago the word is that he got silly offer like 6-7mil last year. Something isnt right here. Question is, does Butler knows what his agent is doing?"

You are posting pure unadulterated BULLLSHIT.

Hear are some FACTS for you. He never held out in the preseason last year (Do you need a "source" for that? It's called WHAT HAPPENED). He never complained in public (Do you need a "source" for that? It's called WHAT HAPPENED) . He came in did his job (in an outstanding manner, btw) and never moped (Do you need a "source" for that? It's called WHAT HAPPENED) .

Those are FACTS.

You can make up whatever "words" you want to mudsling him - - although I'm sure 99% of the fans of New England can't understand why anyone would want to make things up out of mid air to throw mud at Malcolm Butler. Perhaps life has given you reasons to make up things about someone and post them on message boards..

I have no opinion one way or the other how the Patriots are treating Butler in this negotiation - - but I sure as hell am not going make up garbage like you are doing.

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[mihap]

Is this a joke?

This is your previous joke of a post:

"Actually it was a word that he will hold out in preseason last year. The word was that he wanted contract but got nothing from Pats IIRC. Couple days ago the word is that he got silly offer like 6-7mil last year. Something isnt right here. Question is, does Butler knows what his agent is doing?"

You are posting pure unadulterated BULLLSHIT.

Hear are some FACTS for you. He never held out in the preseason last year (Do you need a "source" for that? It's called WHAT HAPPENED). He never complained in public (Do you need a "source" for that? It's called WHAT HAPPENED) . He came in did his job (in an outstanding manner, btw) and never moped (Do you need a "source" for that? It's called WHAT HAPPENED) .

Those are FACTS.

You can make up whatever "words" you want to mudsling him - - although I'm sure 99% of the fans of New England can't understand why anyone would want to make things up out of mid air to throw mud at Malcolm Butler. Perhaps life has given you reasons to make up things about someone and post them on message boards..

I have no opinion one way or the other how the Patriots are treating Butler in this negotiation - - but I sure as hell am not going make up garbage like you are doing.

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I dont feel like searching for tweets about word. First i am not native english speaker, so i use word as something ppl were talking about. The last word came from Butler camp, probably from his agent and some reporters wrote about his unhappines. I use word for this because this comes from other people not exactly from Butler. I dont want to argue with you if you dont understand what am i saying click dislike or disagree button. All i know is that last year it was like Butler holdout then no contract from pats to him and now all of sudden there was contract offer last year. His got rookie agent who f... him and me as a pats fan wanting Butler here.

 

[shmessy]

I dont feel like searching for tweets about word. First i am not native english speaker, so i use word as something ppl were talking about. The last word came from Butler camp, probably from his agent and some reporters wrote about his unhappines. I use word for this because this comes from other people not exactly from Butler. I dont want to argue with you if you dont understand what am i saying click dislike or disagree button. All i know is that last year it was like Butler holdout then no contract from pats to him and now all of sudden there was contract offer last year. His got rookie agent who f... him and me as a pats fan wanting Butler here.

As a former professional linguist for the US Government, I applaud your attempt to communicate in a language different than what you use every day.

That being said, what you wrote before and in the above post clearly blames Butler for things he never did - - no matter the language barrier. I have worked with many people for whom English is not their native language. Your words such as "All i know is that last year it was like Butler holdout" are not misunderstood at all.

No. It was not "like Butler holdout". There was NO holdout. He never said ANYTHING about a holdout.

Butler is blameless to this point in time. Perhaps he will misbehave in the future. But to blame him for ANYTHING to this point is simply untruthful. You can write it in any language you wish. I believe you clearly understand that.

And don't rely on "tweets" for your information. "I dont feel like searching for tweets about word." Just because English is not your first language doesn't give you license to mudsling a player like that. That's universally understood.

We all get it - - you want to malign Butler without any evidence of the things you are claiming.

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[mihap]

As a former professional linguist for the US Government, I applaud your attempt to communicate in a language different than what you use every day.

That being said, what you wrote before and in the above post clearly blames Butler for things he never did - - no matter the language barrier. I have worked with many people for whom English is not their native language. Your words such as "All i know is that last year it was like Butler holdout" are not misunderstood at all.

No. It was not "like Butler holdout". There was NO holdout. He never said ANYTHING about a holdout.

Butler is blameless to this point in time. Perhaps he will misbehave in the future. But to blame him for ANYTHING to this point is simply untruthful. You can write it in any language you wish. I believe you clearly understand that.

And don't rely on "tweets" for your information. "I dont feel like searching for tweets about word." Just because English is not your first language doesn't give you license to mudsling a player like that. That's universally understood.

We all get it - - you want to malign Butler without any evidence of the things you are claiming.

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Ok i usually stop at this point when i have disagrements with people on forum but where , and i really mean where i was blaming Butler for anything. Please read again and check others post where i blame his agent about everything, and that i dont trust his agent. Wtf man.

 

[ivanvamp]

You clearly didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say WHEN he entered the league yis irrelevant. Obviously that matters a great deal because, with only 3 years accrued, he is a RFA instead of a UFA.

What I am saying is the fact that he was undrafted but the Patriots gave him a chance and gave him a lot of money for an undrafted guy is completely irrelevant.
And he declined it because he knew there was far, far more money waiting for him down the road.
He has, at most, 1 year left before becoming a UFA. The Patriots are not franchising him.

Please do keep up, k?
No more laughable than the notion that taking 4/$28 would have been a smart move.

Butler had no idea before the 2016 season that he would make it to unrestricted free agency. In fact, he still doesn't.

The Pats offered him a ton of money - not UFA level money, but still a ton of money - to stay for four more years. Butler turned it down and is taking a gamble that it will work out, instead of taking the guaranteed money.

It's not necessarily wiser to decline the Pats' offer. It's a gamble that might just pay off. But it might not.

But one thing you can't say is that the Pats' offer screwed Butler. That's just plain stupid. In absolutely no way was the offer in any sense a "screw job". Unless by "screw job" you mean "wasn't required to, but still offered him a contract that was worth $28 million dollars which is way more than a player with his service time normally gets".

EDIT: Yes, I misread your post when I talked about "when" instead of "what". My apologies. But even that does matter as well. If you enter, for example, as a first round pick, you will get more money up front, but you will likely be on a 5-year contract. If you are second round pick, you will get less money up front, but you'll only be on a four year contract. As an undrafted free agent, Butler's first contract was a 3-year deal for the rookie minimum. So less money up front than a draft pick, but he also hits free agency earlier. So yes, HOW you entered the NFL, or what status you entered the league as, absolutely matters.

 

[XLIX]

Butler had no idea before the 2016 season that he would make it to unrestricted free agency. In fact, he still doesn't.

He is a hell of a lot closer to UFA right now (or, at worst, a payday of over twice what you think he should have taken) than he would be if he took the laughable 4 years, $28M people in here seem to think he was offered.

The Pats offered him a ton of money - not UFA level money, but still a ton of money - to stay for four more years. Butler turned it down and is taking a gamble that it will work out, instead of taking the guaranteed money.

Yes he took a gamble. And that gamble is on the precipice of paying off. Big time.

 

[ivanvamp]

He is a hell of a lot closer to UFA right now (or, at worst, a payday of over twice what you think he should have taken) than he would be if he took the laughable 4 years, $28M people in here seem to think he was offered.

4/28 for a guy coming off his second year in the NFL is NOT remotely laughable. It's ludicrous for you to keep suggesting that it is.

Yes he took a gamble. And that gamble is on the precipice of paying off. Big time.

XLIX... In order for him to get UFA money, he needs to make it through 2017 unscathed and playing great. And then, because the Pats can franchise him instead of letting him hit the open market as a UFA, he would need to make it through 2018 unscathed and playing great. That's two more seasons, playing at a high level, with no physical problems at all.

Can he do it? Sure, it's possible. Is it likely? Statistically, it's a bad bet. That would mean he'd have survived 5 years in the NFL in good shape physically, especially tough given he entered the league older than most players. So yeah it's possible, but he's not remotely close to being "on the precipice".

 

[XLIX]

XLIX... In order for him to get UFA money, he needs to make it through 2017 unscathed and playing great.

And yet you think the smart thing for him to do was push it back to 2020 in order to take pennies on the dollar.

And then, because the Pats can franchise him instead of letting him hit the open market as a UFA, he would need to make it through 2018 unscathed and playing great. That's two more seasons, playing at a high level, with no physical problems at all.

They can't franchise everyone. But yes you've made it clear that you think they should franchise Butler for $15M and let Garoppolo go for nothing.

And to think people in here call Butler's agent foolhardy....

Can he do it? Sure, it's possible. Is it likely? Statistically, it's a bad bet.

Uh, no it isn't. This is not a guy with a history of injuries. You buy yourself an insurance policy against a catastrophe and then give all the effort you can. Right now that's his worst case scenario, although there is certainly the chance he does a helluva lot better here in the immediate future.

That would mean he'd have survived 5 years in the NFL in good shape physically, especially tough given he entered the league older than most players. So yeah it's possible, but he's not remotely close to being "on the precipice".

And yet you think he should have pushed it all back 4 years.

 

[ivanvamp]

And yet you think the smart thing for him to do was push it back to 2020 in order to take pennies on the dollar.

I didn't say that. I said it all depends on what Butler wants. If he wants to gamble on his health and production, decline the extension offer. If he wants the security at a time when the Patriots were not remotely required to offer it to him, then he could have accepted the offer. He chose to gamble. So far, so good, but there's a long way to go before it can be rightly considered a successful gamble.

They can't franchise everyone.

Of course. But they sure could choose to franchise Butler if they wanted to (should it come to that).

But yes you've made it clear that you think they should franchise Butler for $15M and let Garoppolo go for nothing.

I have no idea why you're making this claim about JG, since I'm on record saying that I think they should trade JG this offseason if they can get a 1st round pick for him.

And to think people in here call Butler's agent foolhardy....

I'm not one of them, XLIX. I'm just telling you that your claim that the Patriots were "screwing" Butler with the 4/28 offer is stupid. And it is. You're trying to make it seem like I'm arguing a bunch of other things that I'm not actually arguing.

Uh, no it isn't. This is not a guy with a history of injuries.

Agreed. He's a tough customer. But in a sport as violent as this, all it takes is one bad hit and you're done.

You buy yourself an insurance policy against a catastrophe and then give all the effort you can. Right now that's his worst case scenario, although there is certainly the chance he does a helluva lot better here in the immediate future.

Sure. There's a chance. It's a gamble.

And yet you think he should have pushed it all back 4 years.

I never, ever, not once, said what he should or should not do. I've said multiple times now that it all depends on what he wants. It's not my life. If he thinks the gamble is a good one (and obviously he did), then he's making his play accordingly. If he felt like security was more important, then he could have taken the Pats' offer.

I'm simply arguing (quite successfully, of course) that the Patriots' offer of 4/28 was not remotely "screwing" Butler. You've offered literally nothing to suggest otherwise.

And moreover, it wouldn't have been pushing UFA "four years". Follow me....

Offer of 4/28 came after the 2015 season. At that point, Butler still was under contract at a rookie pay scale for 2016.

Scenario 1: Accept the Pats' offer
2016: $7m
2017: $7m
2018: $7m
2019: $7m
2020: UFA

Scenario 2: Decline the Pats' offer
2016: rookie contract
2017: $3.9m (as a RFA that the Pats sign to a first round tender)
2018: $14m (under the franchise tag)
2019: UFA

So it pushes back his time as an UFA by ONE year. Not FOUR. Assuming the Pats would use the franchise tag on him, which of course, they might not. But that possibility has to factor in Butler's equation, or else he's being foolish. The risk Butler would take in order to get to unrestricted free agency one year earlier is: (1) maintaining excellent play, even as he ages, (2) stay healthy, even as he ages, and (3) losing actual $$ in the process, since he'd have $28 million offered by the Pats if he accepted it, but if not, he'd make a little over $18 million before hitting UFA. That's $10 million he'd leave on the table as a risk. That's not chump change.

 

[XLIX]

I didn't say that. I said it all depends on what Butler wants. If he wants to gamble on his health and production, decline the extension offer. If he wants the security at a time when the Patriots were not remotely required to offer it to him, then he could have accepted the offer. He chose to gamble. So far, so good, but there's a long way to go before it can be rightly considered a successful gamble.



Of course. But they sure could choose to franchise Butler if they wanted to (should it come to that).



I have no idea why you're making this claim about JG, since I'm on record saying that I think they should trade JG this offseason if they can get a 1st round pick for him.



I'm not one of them, XLIX. I'm just telling you that your claim that the Patriots were "screwing" Butler with the 4/28 offer is stupid. And it is. You're trying to make it seem like I'm arguing a bunch of other things that I'm not actually arguing.



Agreed. He's a tough customer. But in a sport as violent as this, all it takes is one bad hit and you're done.



Sure. There's a chance. It's a gamble.



I never, ever, not once, said what he should or should not do. I've said multiple times now that it all depends on what he wants. It's not my life. If he thinks the gamble is a good one (and obviously he did), then he's making his play accordingly. If he felt like security was more important, then he could have taken the Pats' offer.

I'm simply arguing (quite successfully, of course) that the Patriots' offer of 4/28 was not remotely "screwing" Butler. You've offered literally nothing to suggest otherwise.

All you're doing is arguing (quite unsuccessfully, of course) the semantics of the word "screwing". Butler waited, took a gamble, and will get twice that amount.

You may have told your agent to bend over and take pennies on the dollar, but I can't blame an athlete that doesn't.

 

[ivanvamp]

All you're doing is arguing (quite unsuccessfully, of course) the semantics of the word "screwing". Butler waited, took a gamble, and will get twice that amount.

You may have told your agent to bend over and take pennies on the dollar, but I can't blame an athlete that doesn't.

The phrase "pennies on the dollar" is utterly stupid here. Let me lay it out for you again:

Scenario 1: Accept the Pats' offer
2016: $7m
2017: $7m
2018: $7m
2019: $7m
2020: UFA

Scenario 2: Decline the Pats' offer
2016: rookie contract
2017: $3.9m (as a RFA that the Pats sign to a first round tender)
2018: $14m (under the franchise tag)
2019: UFA

Let's say in Scenario 1 he gets a 4 year, $68 million deal as an unrestricted free agent. And in Scenario 2, because he is a year younger (but for less money, because FA money always goes up every year), he gets a 5 year, $80 million deal.

It then looks like this:

Scenario 1: Accept the Pats' offer
2016: $7m
2017: $7m
2018: $7m
2019: $7m
2020: UFA - $17m
2021: $17m
2022: $17m
2023: $17m
TOTAL: $96 million

Scenario 2: Decline the Pats' offer
2016: rookie contract
2017: $3.9m (as a RFA that the Pats sign to a first round tender)
2018: $14m (under the franchise tag)
2019: UFA - $16m
2020: $16m
2021: $16m
2022: $16m
2023: $16m
TOTAL: $98.3 million

So assuming everything worked out well for him, in scenario 2, he'd make a whopping $2.3 million more. Scenario 1 is slightly less, but hardly "pennies on the dollar". Stop being ridiculous.

 

[RIpats88]

I still havent seen anyone give a good reason why the pats should pay butler UFA $$ up to 14million a year when they have him under contract for 4million$ just out of the goodness of their hearts?

Not sure what is hard to get. Butler needs to give the pats an incentive to increase his pay.

If not he needs to play on the tender take a gamble on himself and hit ufa next year.

If the 7million was before 2016 its not really too bad of an offer as he only played one season in the nfl as a starter. Now the price goes up after 2 solid years but NOT ufa prices. Im sure the pats would be happy to pay butler ryan money.

And thats all he will get offered from a team like the saints who will have to give up multiple picks to get him

 

[XLIX]

The phrase "pennies on the dollar" is utterly stupid here. Let me lay it out for you again:

Scenario 1: Accept the Pats' offer
2016: $7m
2017: $7m
2018: $7m
2019: $7m
2020: UFA

Scenario 2: Decline the Pats' offer
2016: rookie contract
2017: $3.9m (as a RFA that the Pats sign to a first round tender)
2018: $14m (under the franchise tag)
2019: UFA

Let's say in Scenario 1 he gets a 4 year, $68 million deal as an unrestricted free agent. And in Scenario 2, because he is a year younger (but for less money, because FA money always goes up every year), he gets a 5 year, $80 million deal.

It then looks like this:

Scenario 1: Accept the Pats' offer
2016: $7m
2017: $7m
2018: $7m
2019: $7m
2020: UFA - $17m
2021: $17m
2022: $17m
2023: $17m
TOTAL: $96 million

Scenario 2: Decline the Pats' offer
2016: rookie contract
2017: $3.9m (as a RFA that the Pats sign to a first round tender)
2018: $14m (under the franchise tag)
2019: UFA - $16m
2020: $16m
2021: $16m
2022: $16m
2023: $16m
TOTAL: $98.3 million

So assuming everything worked out well for him, in scenario 2, he'd make a whopping $2.3 million more. Scenario 1 is slightly less, but hardly "pennies on the dollar". Stop being ridiculous.

You don't even realize how contradictory you are. In one post you talk about how he's one hit away from retirement and taking a huge chance by not signing a deal in 2016, then in the very next post you've given him a 4 year, $68 million deal in the year 2020 in order to prove your lame point.

It's also silly how you assume the Patriots franchise him in the scenario where it suits your purpose, but assume they won't franchise him in the scenario where it doesn't.

None of your ridiculously silly scenarios above are going to come to pass. But once I am proven right, you'll slither off into some other thread. You've conveniently left out the scenario which right now looks more likely:

2016: Rookie contract
2017: Brand new contract.

Why didn't you run the math for that, smart guy?

 

[ivanvamp]

You don't even realize how contradictory you are. In one post you talk about how he's one hit away from retirement and taking a huge chance by not signing a deal in 2016, then in the very next post you've given him a 4 year, $68 million deal in the year 2020 in order to prove your lame point.

It's also silly how you assume the Patriots franchise him in the scenario where it suits your purpose, but assume they won't franchise him in the scenario where it doesn't.

None of your ridiculously silly scenarios above are going to come to pass. But once I am proven right, you'll slither off into some other thread. You've conveniently left out the scenario which right now looks more likely:

2016: Rookie contract
2017: Brand new contract.

Why didn't you run the math for that, smart guy?

I think I'm done here, thanks. Think what you want to think. Clearly there's nothing to be done about it.

Have a great night, XLIX!