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Draft Strategy - Why It Doesn't Matter If Your Pick Is Considered 'A Reach'


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I certainly agree with the OP, as I've made similar points in other threads. There's such total agreement on this, though, that I'd like to take the other side briefly. Saying "it doesn't matter" if a pick is a reach is a bit overstated. If a team REALLY reaches and takes a player they could pick a round or two later, that's not smart, because they could trade the pick, get their guy and more picks. So that has to be noted.

But yes, in general, saying "that guy would have dropped 10 spots" is absurd, because if team doesn't pick before then, who cares?
 
I don't even think people should be allowed to use the word "reach" when attempting to analyze a team's draft.

All of these morons who are saying the Pats reached, or certain other teams reached do not have a damn clue as to what they are talking about.

The only people IMO who can say the Pats reached is BB, Pioli, or Mike Mayock... the only draft analyst who has proven that he knows what he is talking about (and he's going to be wrong from time to time, obviously)

Anyone else who says they "reached", is like me saying they reached.

I don't have any credibility and i'm not qualified to properly assess the draft.
And the same goes for the other "analyst" morons.
 
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I certainly agree with the OP, as I've made similar points in other threads. There's such total agreement on this, though, that I'd like to take the other side briefly. Saying "it doesn't matter" if a pick is a reach is a bit overstated. If a team REALLY reaches and takes a player they could pick a round or two later, that's not smart, because they could trade the pick, get their guy and more picks. So that has to be noted.

But yes, in general, saying "that guy would have dropped 10 spots" is absurd, because if team doesn't pick before then, who cares?

Because the Pats need to target picks due to the fact they are set at most positions, they offset the reach factor (though I don't like the term) by moving around the board with extra picks.

Look at their third round. Say Wheatley might have been available at 78. They obviously wanted him so they took him at 62 knowing they still had the 69th and 78th and 94th.

Draftnicks have to face the fact there were some highly touted players they simply didn't want or that didn't fit.

They got the guy they wanted, traded up for next year and still got Crable.

If you target someone in a range of thirty or so picks that is the perfect fit (I've got to assume they think Wheatley is) getting a higher regarded player doesn't cut it if he isn't the best fit for your style.

Top teams get "their" players. Simple as that.
 
I agree with the OP, but who is going to watch the shows or read the draft grades if the analysts gave them all "A" grades because each team got the player they felt was the best for their system? Have to give people something to talk about, like these five pages have shown.
 
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Gosselin amazed by Pats and Colts

Patriots, Colts differ from rest at draft time

02:07 AM CDT on Sunday, May 4, 2008



• E-mail

Two teams befuddle me each year in the NFL draft – Indianapolis and New England.

I spend the better part of two months researching players for the draft based on conversations with talent evaluators for all 32 teams. I build a draft board on the best-available-athlete theory. I stack all the players based on ability.

LSU defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey was the most talented player on my board in 2008, and fullback Chris Alexander of Texas A&M was my lowest draftable player at No. 302.

Most teams identify ability on the draft board and select it when they go on the clock. But not the Colts and Patriots. They don't covet the best available player with their picks. They covet the best available fit.

So both teams generally score low on my draft grades. I gave both AFC powers a C again this year. But when they make their selections, the picks look better on their rosters than they do on the overall draft board.

Take San Diego State quarterback Kevin O'Connell, for instance. I rated him as a fourth-round value on my board heading into this draft. The Patriots took him in the third round. Technically, that was a reach.

But when you analyze the player and the team, he wasn't. O'Connell had the size (6-5, 225) and mobility (1,330 career rushing yards with 19 touchdowns) the NFL likes. But his 12-21 career record as a starting quarterback deflated his value. The guy doesn't win.

None of that mattered to the Patriots. They saw a guy who was a rare four-year captain. He has rare leadership skills. They drafted him on intangibles. Intangibles were the reason the Patriots drafted Tom Brady in 2000.

New England has a specific profile for players that fit who the Patriots are and what they want to do. Coach Bill Belichick, whose roots are on special teams, drafted UCLA safety Matt Slater in the fifth round. That was a reach on my board. I had him in the sixth.

But Slater was the best special-teams player on the board. He returns, blocks and covers kicks. The Patriots ranked in the top 12 last season in kick and punt returns and kick and punt coverage. Slater can make them better across the board on special teams.

Linebackers Jerod Mayo and Shawn Crable were two other reaches who look better on the Patriots than they did on the draft board. Mayo brings versatility to the position and Crable a pass rush.

Mike Pollak, Steve Justice and Jamey Richard all look better on the Colts than they did on the 2008 draft board. All were undersized, athletic centers in college. The Colts prefer their blockers to be tacticians, not maulers. Indy wants linemen who play the game with their minds as much as their bodies.

The Colts will convert two of those centers into guards, and all three of them will be starting two years from now on a division championship team.

Marcus Howard is woefully undersized for defensive end at 6-0, 237. But he has 4.46 speed in the 40-yard dash. Indianapolis bases its pass rush on speed, and previous undersized draft-day reaches Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis became double-digit sackers for the Colts.

I had Howard rated as a seventh-round value on my draft board. The Colts took him in the fifth. It would have been a reach for any team but the Colts. He's Mathis all over again.

Like I said, I scratch my head when the Colts and Patriots make their picks in April. But those teams will love the players on the field even more in the fall.
 
Re: Gosselin amazed by Pats and Colts

This should be saved for next year. This is an excellent analysis.

Patriots, Colts differ from rest at draft time

02:07 AM CDT on Sunday, May 4, 2008



• E-mail

Two teams befuddle me each year in the NFL draft – Indianapolis and New England.

I spend the better part of two months researching players for the draft based on conversations with talent evaluators for all 32 teams. I build a draft board on the best-available-athlete theory. I stack all the players based on ability.

LSU defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey was the most talented player on my board in 2008, and fullback Chris Alexander of Texas A&M was my lowest draftable player at No. 302.

Most teams identify ability on the draft board and select it when they go on the clock. But not the Colts and Patriots. They don't covet the best available player with their picks. They covet the best available fit.

So both teams generally score low on my draft grades. I gave both AFC powers a C again this year. But when they make their selections, the picks look better on their rosters than they do on the overall draft board.

Take San Diego State quarterback Kevin O'Connell, for instance. I rated him as a fourth-round value on my board heading into this draft. The Patriots took him in the third round. Technically, that was a reach.

But when you analyze the player and the team, he wasn't. O'Connell had the size (6-5, 225) and mobility (1,330 career rushing yards with 19 touchdowns) the NFL likes. But his 12-21 career record as a starting quarterback deflated his value. The guy doesn't win.

None of that mattered to the Patriots. They saw a guy who was a rare four-year captain. He has rare leadership skills. They drafted him on intangibles. Intangibles were the reason the Patriots drafted Tom Brady in 2000.

New England has a specific profile for players that fit who the Patriots are and what they want to do. Coach Bill Belichick, whose roots are on special teams, drafted UCLA safety Matt Slater in the fifth round. That was a reach on my board. I had him in the sixth.

But Slater was the best special-teams player on the board. He returns, blocks and covers kicks. The Patriots ranked in the top 12 last season in kick and punt returns and kick and punt coverage. Slater can make them better across the board on special teams.

Linebackers Jerod Mayo and Shawn Crable were two other reaches who look better on the Patriots than they did on the draft board. Mayo brings versatility to the position and Crable a pass rush.

Mike Pollak, Steve Justice and Jamey Richard all look better on the Colts than they did on the 2008 draft board. All were undersized, athletic centers in college. The Colts prefer their blockers to be tacticians, not maulers. Indy wants linemen who play the game with their minds as much as their bodies.

The Colts will convert two of those centers into guards, and all three of them will be starting two years from now on a division championship team.

Marcus Howard is woefully undersized for defensive end at 6-0, 237. But he has 4.46 speed in the 40-yard dash. Indianapolis bases its pass rush on speed, and previous undersized draft-day reaches Dwight Freeney and Robert Mathis became double-digit sackers for the Colts.

I had Howard rated as a seventh-round value on my draft board. The Colts took him in the fifth. It would have been a reach for any team but the Colts. He's Mathis all over again.

Like I said, I scratch my head when the Colts and Patriots make their picks in April. But those teams will love the players on the field even more in the fall.
 
Re: Talking heads just talk

But Logan Mankins, considered a reach for the first round, has done all right, don't you think?

Though, interestingly enough, didn't someone from the 49ers say that if the Patriots hadn't picked him at 32, they would have taken him at 33?
 
Let's say that a team does an accurate job of assessing the top 200 players in a draft, and that out of those top 200, through extensive analysis finds that only 25 are actually strong possible fits for your scheme or your selection criteria. The other 175 on the board, if on your team, wouldn't be good fits or would be sub-optimal, so you basically ignore or de-value them.

If you are sitting at #10 and you estimate that your next highest-ranked 'fit' player will be picked within the next 5, 10, or even 25 picks, it doesn't matter if other people think you are reaching. You are picking the best player on your board, for your team. What good does it do to pick the best talent regardless of fit, when you are trying to build a team that excels in your specific scheme or organizational mission/philosophy?

A team that truly believes in its own values, system, and organization will not hesitate to pass over who 3rd party observers consider to be superior talent. The entire debate of who was a reach, does not matter. It does not matter if people think picking Seymour, Warren, Watson, Mankins, Mayo came out of nowhere, if the Pats thought those highest ranked fit players would not last to the next round.

The only analogy I can give as additional explanation is think of a fantasy baseball draft. If pre-draft I know that I want to build a team with excellent pitching, on base percentage, and steals, I will value those players higher than other teams do. If I highly value Chone Figgins for his potential contributions under my team strategy, and I know he won't last through the next round, it doesn't matter if I pick him much higher than is expected. Even if people think I am 'reaching' on picks, I am building my team under my vision, and picking players I know will not last if I do not pick them in those specific rounds.

If the NEP truly believe - and I really, really hope they don't - that out of the top 200, only 25 - or even 50 - are worthy of selection, then they are needlessly narrowing their available talent pool, much as the European royalty did in the 19th century, whereby their offspring - because of inter-marriage & inbreeding - became ******ed & crippled. Whatever happened to: "Give me a kid with talent and the willingness to succeed, and I can develop him into a player I can use"? And what if those 25 - or 50 - are gone by the end of the 3rd round? What do they do then, throw darts at names? That would help explain the Slater & Ruud picks. Perhaps the FO & coaches need to widen their scope and consider other sources.

There is a big difference btwn. estimating that your next target will be selected within the next 5-10 picks, and within the next 25 picks, which is almost a full round away. In the case of Mayo, it was almost certain that he would be gone by #15. At #10, the only 2 guys I wanted were McKelvin or Mayo. The FO had already traded down once; there was no reason to trade down again. In the case of Wheatley, however, there was no reason to think that he wouldn't be available at #78: he just wasn't that well-regarded, esp. because of his wrist. The better move would have been to trade down from #62, or draft someome previously unconsidered, but with considerable talent, e.g. RB Jamaal Charles, the Lightning to LaMa's Thunder. At #78, Wheatley would've represented better value; and either Shawn Crable would have still been available at #94, or Detroit, instead of drafting OLB Cliff Avril at #92, would have taken local kid Crable, leaving Avril - who was better-regarded by many of us over Crable, anyway - for the NEP. Either way, our need at pass-rushing OLB is filled, and we gain a home-run threat at RB/Returner, at the cost of just a 2nd-string - or 3rd- or even 4th-string - QB. And besides, sometimes you just gotta call the other team's bluff.

In the cases of the rest of the picks, the FO needs to do a better job of recognizing those 4 guy's places in the draft universe relative to the other 31 teams. The FO cannot just have their list and not deviate from it, as if it were in a vacuum, and not take note of how the rest of the draft is unfolding. There were several quality talents who could've been very good fits for the Pats' scheme/system on both offense & defense, and who were bypassed in favor of (much) lesser talents who were also (apparently) good fits, but were taken just too damn early. There's little doubt in my mind that Jon Wilhite, for instance, would've been available at the end of the 5th round. OG Roy Schuening, as Steven Neal's replacement, would've been a better choice, as would've been CB Orlando Scandrick.

As for the out-of-nowhere selections of $eymour, Warren, Watson, Mankins and Mayo, they may have been somewhat earlier than expected, but they were hardly unknown, and none would've been available when the Pats selected next, due mostly to those next selections having been traded, either already or shortly thereafter. However, in the case of Bennie Watson: I would have taken LB Karlos Dansby then, and I would take Dansby now.
 
Either way, our need at pass-rushing OLB is filled, and we gain a home-run threat at RB/Returner, at the cost of just a 2nd-string - or 3rd- or even 4th-string - QB.

So much of the logic in this post can be summed up in one word: FAIL.

I'll return to it more later, but clearly the Patriots thought differently. [And, BTW, when exactly did Maroney become the power back in the Maroney-Morris duo?]
 
So what you are saying, captain stone, is that the Patriots (who know exactly what type of player they want for their team right now and what type they want for the future) should disregard their list of players that fit their prototypes because you and some other message board posters feel that those players would have been gone 25 picks later? The people that organize their careers around this activity should abandon their own board because you like Cliff Avril more than Crable and think Wheatley wouldn't have been picked within the next selections (which is more likely to have happened considering there was a run on CBs that saw five selected in nine picks and began just two selections ahead of the Patriots in round 2).

In the later rounds (five and beyond) you think that Slater or Ruud, players they absolutely felt have a chance of earning a spot on the roster and meet certain qualifications they expect from their positions, should not have been drafted because, again, other players who you, the amateur, feel would have been flashier were available and you're working under the dubious idea that your assumptions of where a player was going to be drafted are better than the assumptions of people who follow not only their own team's draft board, but work extremely hard to prognosticate what others will also do.

Instead of drafting those two what should they have done? Keep the seventh rounder and risked someone picking Slater between where he was taken and where the Pats would have picked? Traded back and hoped Slater doesn't get scooped up and receive an extra seventh round pick and use it on a player that doesn't project well to their system? Either way you have two players who don't fit your scheme and will be of no use instead of someone that the makers of the system feel will actually have a shot of making the team. Sounds way better to me. :rolleyes:

Jamaal Charles is absolutely not a compliment to Maroney and has no place on this team. I would have been pissed with any Patriots draft that had a third round pick of a speed back who struggles to move the pile and is limited in pass protection. They already have that player except he's been in the league for two years and had more potential from the outset.
 
I'm not sure why this baffles so many people. The Pats go into every draft with the intention of absolutely getting certain players. This could be for a variety of reasons...short-term need, untapped potential, long-term star projection.

Branch, Bethel, Mankins, Hobbs, Cassel, Gostkowski, O'Connell, Slater. All of these guys went "much earlier than projected". The Pats know the projections so it is reasonable to assume that they wanted to make sure they left the respective drafts with these guys on the roster.

Branch - Ideal for what a developing Brady needed at the time
Bethel - Drafted to boost return game (check) with potential to become a deep threat in the passing game (whammy)
Mankins - Not that big a reach since the real scouts had him pegged as a beast
Hobbs - Transitioning DB's to adjust to changing rules on pass defense (transition ongoing)
Cassel - Hard to call a 7th rounder a reach but dude didn't play in college. Reached backup status but not good enough to recycle for a draft pick
Gostkowski - Obvious need and Gost was the specific target to fill it
O'Connell - Unique and raw talent. Fits the mold (6'5", 235). When the "life after Brady" questions begin, should have a good read on his ceiling
Slater - Hobbs, Maroney and Welker are now too valuable to expose in return game. Bethel II without the expectations beyond ST.

Pretty solid record on "reaches". From stud production (Branch, Mankins) to solid contributions (Hobbs, Gostkowski) to "did the job but not much more" (Bethel, Cassel). So when Belichick, Pioli and the Pats' scouts get their focus on someone, it generally turns out OK.

While I didn't include Wheatley on the list (I had the Giants taking him with their 2nd round pick), if you want you can just cut-n-paste the Hobbs description. I'll leave the shorter/quicker CB discussion for another thread.
 
I'm not sure why this baffles so many people. The Pats go into every draft with the intention of absolutely getting certain players. This could be for a variety of reasons...short-term need, untapped potential, long-term star projection.

While a lot of what you wrote is correct, I think your point needs to be clarified a bit: the Patriots have a list of players that they covet, and will try to collect as many of them as possible, provided they can do so while getting "good value."

So, for example, taking need into account, it seems fairly obvious that the Patriots felt that it was more important to take Wheatley at 62 than Crable or O'Connell, and the same for Crable at both 69 and 78.

Interestingly enough, though, it appears that the Patriots had another DB on their list higher than Matthew Slater: Zackary Bowman. They had planned to trade up to the Jaguars pick at 143 to take Bowman, but the Bears grabbed him at 142, so the Pats had to "settle" for trading up to get Slater. [Of course, it's worth noting that they felt Wilhite had more to offer than Bowman, because they had just drafted Wilhite at 129. . . .]
 
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While a lot of what you wrote is correct, I think your point needs to be clarified a bit: the Patriots have a list of players that they covet, and will try to collect as many of them as possible, provided they can do so while getting "good value."

I was actually trying to make a stronger point than that. In addition to the "covet" list that you mention, I really believe that there are certain players (only a handful in Belichick's time as HC of the NEP) that they specifically intended to get in the draft. To ensure that, those players were drafted early (2+ rounds) based on projections.

This is the part that seems to baffle people. Why wouldn't they wait one more round since the players would certainly still be available? Why not at least trade down? Because these specific players were important enough to the Pats plans to not risk losing them.

For example, I firmly believe the Pats had every intention of getting O'Connell this year...not just getting a good value for a developmental QB. Projected as a 5th round guy, the Pats would need to take him in the 3rd to ensure they got him. People see that as a "reach" and in a sense it is. The Pats must see a unique skill set in a prototype frame and an abnormally high ceiling. In 4 years (when they need to make an investment decision on O'Connell), Brady will be 35 and may start to be looking to life after football.

Need + Timing + Skills + Ceiling = Must Have = Drafted Ahead of Projections
 
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Excellent post fella.
 
I was actually trying to make a stronger point than that. In addition to the "covet" list that you mention, I really believe that there are certain players (only a handful in Belichick's time as HC of the NEP) that they specifically intended to get in the draft. To ensure that, those players were drafted early (2+ rounds) based on projections.

This is the part that seems to baffle people. Why wouldn't they wait one more round since the players would certainly still be available? Why not at least trade down? Because these specific players were important enough to the Pats plans to not risk losing them.

For example, I firmly believe the Pats had every intention of getting O'Connell this year...not just getting a good value for a developmental QB. Projected as a 5th round guy, the Pats would need to take him in the 3rd to ensure they got him. People see that as a "reach" and in a sense it is. The Pats must see a unique skill set in a prototype frame and an abnormally high ceiling. In 4 years (when they need to make an investment decision on O'Connell), Brady will be 35 and may start to be looking to life after football.

Need + Timing + Skills + Ceiling = Must Have = Drafted Ahead of Projections

The problem with this analysis is that there was a relatively wide gap in opinions on O'Connell--some scouts projected him going in the fifth, if not later, while some coaches felt he had first-round talent, according to one of the talking heads on draft day.

Similarly, it seems that while the Pats did "covet" O'Connell, they saw Wheatley and Crable as more important still; I'm not quite sure what to make of that.
 
The problem with this analysis is that there was a relatively wide gap in opinions on O'Connell--some scouts projected him going in the fifth, if not later, while some coaches felt he had first-round talent, according to one of the talking heads on draft day.

Similarly, it seems that while the Pats did "covet" O'Connell, they saw Wheatley and Crable as more important still; I'm not quite sure what to make of that.

Don't follow your logic. If the Pats really wanted to get Slater (which is probably true) and didn't have a specific LB or CB they just had to have, should they take Slater in the first round? Obviously not. They took Slater with the latest pick that was sure to get him.

My point is that it looks like the Pats sometimes target specific players (not just positions or skills) that they want to get in a draft. They use a draft pick that is almost guaranteed to get them because it is so far ahead of where they are ranked and projected to go. People call it a "reach" but the Pats likely view it as the cost of doing business.

To a lesser degree, the Pats generally "reach" on most of their picks. That is why the draft grades are always in the C to C+ range (they get B grades from folks that grade on a curve given their past success).

CJack, Wilfork, Cedric Cobbs, PK Sam, TBC, Hakim Akbar...those are the picks under Belichick that have gathered the most praise from the mediots. Outside of Wilfork (criminal that he was available at #20), hardly a star-studded cast with the Pats or elsewhere.

Branch, Bethel, Mankins, Hobbs, Cassel, Gostkowski, O'Connell, Slater...all declared questionable reaches by the same folks. I like the overall production of the "reaches" much more than the A-grade crew mentioned above.

As for O'Connell having 1st round talent, I believe he could get that evaluation. Actually ranking him in the top 100 or with the top-tier QBs (Ryan, Flacco, Brohm, Henne) in this draft...not so much.
 
Don't follow your logic. If the Pats really wanted to get Slater (which is probably true) and didn't have a specific LB or CB they just had to have, should they take Slater in the first round? Obviously not. They took Slater with the latest pick that was sure to get him.

That's a bit of a straw man. My question was simply how high the Pats were willing to go on O'Connell--if, for the sake of argument, San Diego hadn't come calling at 69, would the Pats have taken O'Connell at 78? As for Slater, remember that they moved up to get him, but only after Zackary Bowman was off the board, so I have trouble seeing how Slater was a "must-have guy."

I agree with you on pretty much everything else you wrote, though.

As for O'Connell having 1st round talent, I believe he could get that evaluation. Actually ranking him in the top 100 or with the top-tier QBs (Ryan, Flacco, Brohm, Henne) in this draft...not so much.

I guess it's more of a question of viewpoint. I think one could make the argument that the Pats aren't seeing O'Connell at 94 as only "paying a premium", so much as paying a premium and nevertheless getting a steal.
 
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The Patriots do a fine job under Belichick in building their team. It like night and day versus Bobby Grier.

I believe that the Pats would liked to have a legitimate reserve NT. Red Bryant from A&M was the best pure NT, in the draft, and was projected to third and or early fourth round. Many liked Avril, a possible late second, or third round pick, but the Pats prefered the bigger Crable.

If the Pats used #69 for Crable, as they told him on the phone they were preparing to do, would they then have used the #78 for either player before taking O'Connel later?

If the Chargers had not called for #69 might the Pats have used a pick for Bryant? Or Avril? I suggest they would might well done so.

Crable is more like a Vrabel or McGinnest, a strongside OLB, whereas Avril more resembles a Phifer, or Colvin LB, weakside cover and pass rush OLB.

Who do you think they would have drafted if they had not moved #69 for a SD second round pick next draft?

It is a might have been situation, but who do you think they might have taken?
 
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