Do we have depth at the D-Line?

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

There is a summary of the D-Line in PFW. One of the things I was thinking as I read the review was: what would we do if Seymour missed a few games AND Wilfork or Warren also had to miss a few games? Our starting three looks good, and with Jarvis Green, we can field a good 4-3, but we really don't seem to have any name quality depth.

We saw last year that it was hard to cover for Seymour (for a lot of reasons), but what kind of depth do we really have? I believe that it may be a reason for concern, because last year we only lost one guy for a few games. We can't expect any better than that, and maybe much worse.....

What could be expected if we had two of our starters go down for a while? Would we realistically be able to stay competitive?

 

[pats1]

We haven't had too much of a chance to see Hill, as he needs to rely on Seymour/Warren going down to even get his chance.

Sullivan and/or Wright and/or Smith would be the backup NT.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

We all know the names on paper, but which of those guys currently inspires confidence that we would be okay for half a season if we needed two of them to step up? That's where I am not very certain.

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

Sullivan and/or Wright and/or Smith would be the backup NT.

and/or Klecko
:scared:

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Hill was benched in favor of undrafted rookie Wright last year. Did Wright seem to be good enough to play a whole season?

Smith was on a good Cornhusker's Defense, but I know nothing about him.

Sullivan is fat and had two braced knees, according to PFW. Maybe he can man one spot if he can make it thru camp, but my worst case 'likely to happen' is that we need two guys to step up for a while.

Can it happen?

 

[pats1]

Hill was benched in favor of undrafted rookie Wright last year. Did Wright seem to be good enough to play a whole season?

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Wright is a NT. Hill is a DE. Big difference.

The Pats inactivated Hill on some gamedays because they needed a backup NT, and Green was obviously ahead of Hill at DE. Green is needed as a pass rusher, while Hill is a bigger run-stopper. He was used on the goal-line, but that's about it because of the guys in front of him. The Pats want a Pro-Bowler like Seymour on the field as much as they can.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Belichick likes positional flexiblity. Seymour would have played NT or DE if he were called off the bench in that situation, and so would Warren. Neither Wright nor Hill seems to have a NT body. If Hill isn't flexible enough to play some NT and can't beat out Jarvis at DE, I don't have a lot of confidence in him. Jarvis is not much of a run-stuffer himself.

Would you feel okay with a line-up of Hill, Wilfork and Green? How about Warren, Wright and Green? This is what I am thinking about as far as depth.

 

[JR4]

What is "name quality depth". If you mean PATs don't have someone like
Ted Washington or Casey Hampton or some other known DL guys on the
second string ... you are right .... but what team does have a second string of "name quality depth"?

If Seymour, Wilfork and Warren all go down at same time ... Pats are in
trouble. But how often does a team lose 3 DLine starters in a season at the
same time?

PATs surely can cover 1 loss and by end or TC they may even be able to
handle two losses without severe difficulty considering they have Green and
Hill who know the system and have some experience in BB's system.
Then there is the potential of Sullivan. But three losses?

Seriously I'm more concerned about the LB core for depth than the DLine.
One LB starter going down could hurt a lot.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Actually, I said two losses, not three. Two guys going down for a few games seems entirely possible.

Just wondering what fellow fans think of our depth, beyond that we have names on the roster. Has anybody seen Hill do anything worth noting? Is Smith more than just a project? How good did Wright look last year? I don't have those games on tape.

 

[Ring 6]

We all know the names on paper, but which of those guys currently inspires confidence that we would be okay for half a season if we needed two of them to step up? That's where I am not very certain.

What team out there has what you are expecting the Pats to have?
Certainly no one has a better starting DL.
Very few have a backup as good as Green.
When you get to the 2nd and 3rd backup, I dont think you are going to find any teams out there that have players who would 'inspire confidence'.

 

[mgteich]

We've had that confidence in the past. We had it in Traylor. We had it when it when we grizzled vets four and five years ago when we carried eight DL's.

What team out there has what you are expecting the Pats to have?
Certainly no one has a better starting DL.
Very few have a backup as good as Green.
When you get to the 2nd and 3rd backup, I dont think you are going to find any teams out there that have players who would 'inspire confidence'.

 

[PatsWorldChamps]

There is a summary of the D-Line in PFW. One of the things I was thinking as I read the review was: what would we do if Seymour missed a few games AND Wilfork or Warren also had to miss a few games? Our starting three looks good, and with Jarvis Green, we can field a good 4-3, but we really don't seem to have any name quality depth.

We saw last year that it was hard to cover for Seymour (for a lot of reasons), but what kind of depth do we really have? I believe that it may be a reason for concern, because last year we only lost one guy for a few games. We can't expect any better than that, and maybe much worse.....

What could be expected if we had two of our starters go down for a while? Would we realistically be able to stay competitive?

we'd be better off than any nfl team which lost their best DL AND another DL starter... kind of a dumb question.

 

[RayClay]

I agree we haven't developed reliable backups other than Green. We're rolling the dice on non-performers like Hill, Klecko and Sullivan while an undrafted player like Wright seems to be a potentially reliable backup.

It would be nice if physical specimens like Hill and Sullivan gave us superior talent on the bench, but a couple more lunch bucket types like Wright might be more realistic.

We've got a hell of a lot invested in our first four. A couple lower paid, dedicated players might pay dividends in the future.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

5-R, seems like a case of High Anxiety.

Okay, the question is can we replace two DL starters for 3-4 games? Yes. That includes Seymour.

Will we replace them with players of similar talent and experience? Unlikely.

Seymour's replacement is Green, then Wright/Thomas. That actually isn't too bad a progression in depth.

Vince's replacement is Wright, then Sullivan/Smith. Wright did okay and should be better, Sullivan has the talent, we'll see if he is around to develop it. Smith would be a big drop off, I'm betting his only hope is Practice Squad - or Sullivan's fat cells (those above the neck) remaining enlarged.

Warren's replacement is Hill, then Wright/Thomas. Hill was used as a replacement for Seymour last year when he played, it was my impression that he was slower off the snap, similar to Warren's reaction time, so when they reported him taking his reps behind Warren in mini-camp it made more sense to me that he would work better against the less athletic RT. I think Wright could crowd Hill for playing time again, but this move may also be what Hill needs to make the next step forward and find a productive niche on the team.

Thomas was doing an apprenticeship on the Practice Squad last year. Looking back at Klecko being inactive to end the season - I suspect BB was satisfied with Thomas' development, Wright's performance, and Klecko's recovery from his knee injury, so I think he had Klecko start the transition to LB before the season ended.

We played several downs last year with Klecko at NT and Hill or Green at LT. Klecko would likely have worn down faster then Vince, but we didn't lose anything by having him in there at the time as Vince still didn't have his two-gap mind right. Wright played okay, well enough to be active most games. The thing to remember about Wright, Hill, Thomas, whomever, they are still developing in a two-gap system. Both Warren and Wilfork split reps their rookie seasons and came on strong near the end of their sophomore seasons after several games as starters. Green started coming on stronger as he got more playing time, all the practice in the world isn't going to get the muscle responses locked in at game speed/strength, you've got to have the full speed repetitions before the reactions happen without conscious thought.

We're Ring, start your countdown for number 4.

 

[spacecrime]

We've had that confidence in the past. We had it in Traylor.

Traylor? Not Keith Traylor? I know we tend to idolize players when they are gone, but Traylor was horrible. Did you mean Ted Washington? Him I missed after he left. But that was because we had Traylor after he left.

 

[patman52]

What team out there has what you are expecting the Pats to have?
Certainly no one has a better starting DL.
Very few have a backup as good as Green.
When you get to the 2nd and 3rd backup, I dont think you are going to find any teams out there that have players who would 'inspire confidence'.

What team in the nfl would not have a signifigant down grade if they went to thier 2nd reserve player. I dont hink there is another team that has a quality guy like green on the bench. We have to see how Sullivan/smith takes to the nose as a b/u to wilfork.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Box of Rocks: Maybe I should have just addressed the question to you in the first place! I was hoping somebody would answer the question in a thoughtful manner.

I don't know what the point is that others are trying to make about the depth that other teams have, it is irrelevant. The question is about the Pats, not the Cardinals, or whatever other team happens to be out there. When I mention 'name quality' depth, it can mean somebody that we are familiar with on the Pats, it doesn't mean some pro-bowler. Since Seymour misses time EVERY SEASON, it seems like a reasonable thing to ponder.

I see that you also felt that Wright was potentially 'crowding' Hill for playing time, and that Wright is a back-up at all three positions, while Hill is still 'developing' in a two gap system (with an extra year or more on the team over Wright) and backing up one position.

I know you really like Thomas, is there any thing in particular you know about him?

I don't trust Sullivan to help the team, it seems like a real wild card for a few reasons. Even if he is on the roster, he supposedly doesn't play hard in games.

I also have not considered Green to be all that impressive as a run stopper, and my personal feeling is that he is a third down player and not a full time plugger.

 

[Ring 6]

Box of Rocks: Maybe I should have just addressed the question to you in the first place! I was hoping somebody would answer the question in a thoughtful manner.

I don't know what the point is that others are trying to make about the depth that other teams have, it is irrelevant. The question is about the Pats, not the Cardinals, or whatever other team happens to be out there. When I mention 'name quality' depth, it can mean somebody that we are familiar with on the Pats, it doesn't mean some pro-bowler. Since Seymour misses time EVERY SEASON, it seems like a reasonable thing to ponder.

I see that you also felt that Wright was potentially 'crowding' Hill for playing time, and that Wright is a back-up at all three positions, while Hill is still 'developing' in a two gap system (with an extra year or more on the team over Wright) and backing up one position.

I know you really like Thomas, is there any thing in particular you know about him?

I don't trust Sullivan to help the team, it seems like a real wild card for a few reasons. Even if he is on the roster, he supposedly doesn't play hard in games.

I also have not considered Green to be all that impressive as a run stopper, and my personal feeling is that he is a third down player and not a full time plugger.

What other teams have is relevant, because we play against other teams.
If you ask what happens if Tom Brady gets hurt because we dont have a second Brady, doesnt that apply to every team in the league?
In other words, you are asking for something that simply doesnt exist, backups of equal talent to the best DL in the NFL.

We could also have thought the same things about up to 15 other players who have had to step in and start, without being a 'name player' before hand in 3 seasons that we won the SB.

If you have injuries you have dropoff.

Perhaps your question should have been directed at how the backups rate AS BACKUPS, because you will never find a team with backups that rate well as starters. Welocme to a salary capped league.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Like I said, Box, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I'm glad that you brought something to this discussion. And Ray Clay and MgTeich.

If we ran a 4-3 like most teams in the league, Green would be a starter, not a back-up, and he is not a back-up when we utilize the 4-3 from time to time. Therefore, we would need more depth than just him to continue business as usual if two guys were down for a few weeks. Or else the 4-3 wouldn't be a viable option anymore.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I see that you also felt that Wright was potentially 'crowding' Hill for playing time, and that Wright is a back-up at all three positions, while Hill is still 'developing' in a two gap system (with an extra year or more on the team over Wright) and backing up one position.

Repetitions (or plays) not years, that is what I'm looking at with Hill. Seymour played pretty well from the get go, Wright may also be a quick learner, Warren and Wilfork both came on about the same time after splitting time the first year and starting the second, Green wasn't a household (in NE) name until he'd been here a couple seasons. Hill probably had fewer plays (minus his STs snaps) then Flutie. Giving him the benefit of the doubt (because I don't know) I am assuming he is progressing about the same rate Green did given limited game opportunities.

I know you really like Thomas, is there any thing in particular you know about him?

Whoops, came across too strong - I'm guessing when it comes to Thomas, but hopeful given the roster manuevers last year and this off-season. With Klecko going to LB, Thomas has only Smith to compete with for that 7th DL slot. There seems to be an 'intent' there.

I don't trust Sullivan to help the team, it seems like a real wild card for a few reasons. Even if he is on the roster, he supposedly doesn't play hard in games.

I saw how tough he was for Mankins to control last year, ask God to open his eyes to his potential when you say your prayers tonight.

I also have not considered Green to be all that impressive as a run stopper, and my personal feeling is that he is a third down player and not a full time plugger.

Green does just fine as a run stopper and I have no problems with him playing full time if needed. Bear in mind he played most of the season with a bum shoulder, Hill, Wright, and Klecko took a number of reps behind him and Seymour when both were out.

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