27 and 0...

[emoney_33]

Both balls should have been caught by Randy Moss. Frankly, it's disappointing to me that anyone thinks otherwise. And Jammer didn't "hit the ball away" on that first pass.

Deus, yes he did, go re-watch the play, I'm not making it up. You are putting way too high of expectations on Moss, he's amazing not perfect. Jammer made 2 good plays, give the guy credit. Nothing Moss could have done on the first, and short of NOT tucking the ball to his hip, nothing he could have done on the 2nd.

 

[Pats726]

I call them as I see them...and it's pretty much manure...a ton of it...get your shovels out!!!

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus, yes he did, go re-watch the play, I'm not making it up. You are putting way too high of expectations on Moss, he's amazing not perfect. Jammer made 2 good plays, give the guy credit. Nothing Moss could have done on the first, and short of NOT tucking the ball to his hip, nothing he could have done on the 2nd.

I saw the plays and I disagree with your analysis. While you're not the only person taking your positions, I'm not the only person taking mine. There seems to be a split on the issue, which is not surprising given how the plays developed. However, I'll simply point out one thing that seems obvious to me, and leave the others for now:

On the second throw, Moss had both hands on the ball and Jammer did not have either hand on it. At that point, there's no excuse for him not making the play, and crediting Jammer is one way of making that excuse. He's Randy F'ing Moss, and Randy F'ing Moss needs to hold on to the damn ball.

 

[emoney_33]

I saw the plays and I disagree with your analysis. While you're not the only person taking your positions, I'm not the only person taking mine. There seems to be a split on the issue, which is not surprising given how the plays developed. However, I'll simply point out one thing that seems obvious to me, and leave the others for now:

On the second throw, Moss had both hands on the ball and Jammer did not have either hand on it. At that point, there's no excuse for him not making the play, and crediting Jammer is one way of making that excuse. He's Randy F'ing Moss, and Randy F'ing Moss needs to hold on to the damn ball.

That's fine but there is absolutely no difference from Moss this year to the record breaking performance of last year. He plays the exact same way, which is better than any other WR in the NFL.

The 2nd throw... He caught it, put it into his right hand, tucked it to his side to run. Jammer had turned as he was catching it and brought his hand down to the ball (as a DB is taught, the WR has to come down with the ball) and slapped it out of Moss hand. Did you expect Moss to corral it with both arms and protect it like a RB (something you just don't see receivers doing)? It could be argued it was a catch and fumble as well btw.

There is only fan and media fabricated changes in Randy Moss.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Whoa, whoa, whoa Deus where are you getting this? Looks can be deceiving, don't judge a book by its cover, etc... Moss may LOOK like he isn't putting effort in, but that's just part of his advantage against the defense. When the CB is playing him, he gives no tells as to when and where the ball is coming. This may look like lack of effort, but it really is not.

Also has anyone considered that BB usually doesn't throw out everything (adjustments, scheme, gameplan) against a team that he is very likely to see again when it counts more? He doesn't simply coach for today, he always has one eye on tomorrow. Like I've said before the gameplan, scheme, coaching advantages will be seen when it really matters, not in week 5 against a potential playoff opponent.

emoney, go back if you can and look at his play from the first 12 weeks of 2007. Then look at his play from week 13 right through when Tommy went down in week 1... And please, I know the weather changed and we faced tougher defenses but he was re-signed for 9 freakin' million to be there when he's needed most. I don't care what he says, I care what he does and he needs to do more than pay lip or pat on the ass service to this QB and sitting by his self better have been an indication of chagrin at himself rather than disappointment with his lot in life.

While I agree with you in general, there's definitely an issue above and beyond this. We're seeing some very uncharacteristic things with this team that have nothing to do with the loss of Brady or opponents' scheming, and they do need to be addressed. Moss' mediocre (to be kind) play and effort, the offensive AND defensive lines losing the physicality battle, huge gaps in the defensive zones and a lack of support on the deep balls being thrown against the team are all things that the coaching staff can, and must, deal with.

I agree but the issues above and beyond it aren't going to get settled this season. They certainly need to be dealt with this season though... Brady coming back needs to be just the first of a series of changes/additions to the 2009 NEP, but that's fodder for another day (or year actually).

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Some issues MAY get settled a bit this season. Neal and possibly Ross might shore up an underperforming OL. Maybe the rookie CBs might blossom as well. I do agree that a good deal of draft and FA work needs to be done for 2009, as the 2008 D and OL are broken.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's fine but there is absolutely no difference from Moss this year to the record breaking performance of last year. He plays the exact same way, which is better than any other WR in the NFL.

The 2nd throw... He caught it, put it into his right hand, tucked it to his side to run. Jammer had turned as he was catching it and brought his hand down to the ball (as a DB is taught, the WR has to come down with the ball) and slapped it out of Moss hand. Did you expect Moss to corral it with both arms and protect it like a RB (something you just don't see receivers doing)? It could be argued it was a catch and fumble as well btw.

There is only fan and media fabricated changes in Randy Moss.

What can I say other than I disagree with your analysis? I don't want to get into an numbers thing so I'll use just one "media" member who's not generally given to fabrication as an example, and that's Reiss, who seems to agree with me:

Ups and downs - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

I think you're wrong, and my guess is that Moss would agree with me. Again, he's Randy F'ing Moss, and he needs to make those plays.

 

[NEPatriot]

our D hasn't performed well for sure. It looks like this year is not going to be a D year.

 

[emoney_33]

What can I say other than I disagree with your analysis? I don't want to get into an numbers thing so I'll use just one "media" member who's not generally given to fabrication as an example, and that's Reiss, who seems to agree with me:

Ups and downs - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

I think you're wrong, and my guess is that Moss would agree with me. Again, he's Randy F'ing Moss, and he needs to make those plays.

I'm not saying that those plays were impossible nor that he wouldn't like to have them back. Sure maybe he can slow up a little more or earlier on the first pass and make a more fantastic one-handed grab like he did against Greer in the Bills game last year. Maybe he can play the ball differently on the 2nd one etc...

I'm only saying that this isn't a case of him not giving full effort or moping or anything like that. He has dropped easy catches every once in a while in the past too ya know, he's not perfect. I'm not saying he couldn't make those plays, but I just don't think it's a trend or lack of effort type deal.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not saying that those plays were impossible nor that he wouldn't like to have them back. Sure maybe he can slow up a little more or earlier on the first pass and make a more fantastic one-handed grab like he did against Greer in the Bills game last year. Maybe he can play the ball differently on the 2nd one etc...

I'm only saying that this isn't a case of him not giving full effort or moping or anything like that. He has dropped easy catches every once in a while in the past too ya know, he's not perfect. I'm not saying he couldn't make those plays, but I just don't think it's a trend or lack of effort type deal.

And we disagree, so there's really nothing further we can mine here. When 6'4" Moss is getting outplayed on deep balls by 6'0" Quentin Jammer, I have to look at 2 things: eroding skills and effort. You may be thinking it's eroding skills (I don't know if you are), but I don't see that. I see a wide receiver who's playing 'timid/hesitant' football, and I've seen it on multiple plays and in multiple games, this season.

 

[emoney_33]

And we disagree, so there's really nothing further we can mine here. When 6'4" Moss is getting outplayed on deep balls by 6'0" Quentin Jammer, I have to look at 2 things: eroding skills and effort. You must be thinking it's eroding skills, but I don't see that. I see a wide receiver who's playing 'timid/hesitant' football, and I've seen it on multiple plays and in multiple games, this season.

You are just making something out of nothing now. Moss is great, but he isn't perfect, and the other guy gets paid too. Tom Brady throws bad passes from time to time and makes stupid mistakes from time to time. When he does that does it mean his skills are eroding or he isn't trying?

Explain how on earth he is playing timid/hesitant? The first pass was underthrown by Moss, similar to the underthrown pass to Moss in the Bills game last year. He played the two the same, except he had a bit better screen against Greer but he had to make an amazing one handed catch. He didn't give himself as much room between the ball landing and the DB this time, which allowed Jammer to make a nice play.

How you construe that as lack of effort, or playing timid/hesitant is ridiculous. I think last year gave you some ridiculous expectations out of Moss. He is the best but again not perfect. When Welker drops an easy pass, is that a bad trend?

We can disagree on the issue all we want, but you are simply making something out of nothing. I don't know why, maybe it's because you wish he acted a different way, but Moss is Moss. Are you reading his body language or looking solely at the result of the pass to come to the conclusion you have?

 

[Deus Irae]

You are just making something out of nothing now. Moss is great, but he isn't perfect, and the other guy gets paid too. Tom Brady throws bad passes from time to time and makes stupid mistakes from time to time. When he does that does it mean his skills are eroding or he isn't trying?

Explain how on earth he is playing timid/hesitant? The first pass was underthrown by Moss, similar to the underthrown pass to Moss in the Bills game last year. He played the two the same, except he had a bit better screen against Greer but he had to make an amazing one handed catch. He didn't give himself as much room between the ball landing and the DB this time, which allowed Jammer to make a nice play.

How you construe that as lack of effort, or playing timid/hesitant is ridiculous. I think last year gave you some ridiculous expectations out of Moss. He is the best but again not perfect. When Welker drops an easy pass, is that a bad trend?

We can disagree on the issue all we want, but you are simply making something out of nothing. I don't know why, maybe it's because you wish he acted a different way, but Moss is Moss. Are you reading his body language or looking solely at the result of the pass to come to the conclusion you have?

Oh, for crying out loud... I'm obviously NOT making something out of nothing, since I'm by no means the only person who's noticed the same thing. I think that Moss should have had both catches and that his effort was part of the reason why (his body language has nothing to do with it. His obvious, to me, lack of full effort does). I was an athlete who frequently had the dreaded body language 'issues', although it was usually something people thought was negative being directed towards teammates, so I know full well that body language arguments are often wildly inaccurate. Let me repeat this in slightly different form: I don't give a rat's ass what his body language was: I care what his apparent effort was, and I found it lacking.

You disagree with me. We're not going to change one another's mind. So, really, it's basically end of story.

 

[Pats726]

Ups and downs - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

I know you have brought up Reiss to back your arguments..but where does Reiss say anything about Moss mot giving full effort or ANYTHING like that....that Moss had an off day happens. ..but you are going deeper than that..with nothing...except opinion...and making so many assumptions..that you are tripping over them...and THAT is pretty poor.

 

[emoney_33]

Oh, for crying out loud... I'm obviously NOT making something out of nothing, since I'm by no means the only person who's noticed the same thing. I think that Moss should have had both catches and that his effort was part of the reason why (his body language has nothing to do with it. His obvious, to me, lack of full effort does). I was an athlete who frequently had the dreaded body language 'issues', although it was usually something people thought was negative being directed towards teammates, so I know full well that body language arguments are often wildly inaccurate. Let me repeat this in slightly different form: I don't give a rat's ass what his body language was: I care what his apparent effort was, and I found it lacking.

You disagree with me. We're not going to change one another's mind. So, really, it's basically end of story.

2 issues...

How do you judge effort if not by body language?

You claimed that Jammer can only make a good play against Moss if Moss is either not trying (lack of effort) or has eroding skills. That is some incredibly high and unfair expectations on Moss. Yes he's Randy Moss but to say that no one should ever make a play against him? DBs have made plays against him even in his absolute prime, just not often.

You can't judge effort by results, and on TV the only apparent effort is judged from body language. Moss is very smart and intentionally looks the same no matter how fast he is going, which makes it that much tougher on DBs trying to judge Moss, his speed etc...

Anywho, I'm just really wondering where you see this obvious lack of effort, especially if not from any sort of body language.

 

[Deus Irae]

I know you have brought up Reiss to back your arguments..but where does Reiss say anything about Moss mot giving full effort or ANYTHING like that....that Moss had an off day happens. ..but you are going deeper than that..with nothing...except opinion...and making so many assumptions..that you are tripping over them...and THAT is pretty poor.

Whoa..... you're conflating two things.

1.) Should Moss have had the catches?

2.) If the answer to #1 is yes, why didn't Moss make the catch?

Reiss seems to think Moss should have had them, but doesn't specifically say why he felt he didn't get them. You are welcome to come to a reason other than effort if you can think of one that fits in Reiss' equation. Felger has some comments about them as well, and he does point to effort:

WEEI 850AM Sports Radio - Pats Flunk Out In San Diego

I didn't want to bring him up because of the reaction that so many here have towards the guy but, as I said, it's not as if I'm alone in this. However, if you you want to kill Felger, take a look at what he points out about Madden's commentary.

 

[Deus Irae]

2 issues...

How do you judge effort if not by body language?

Actual actions, or lack therof

You claimed that Jammer can only make a good play against Moss if Moss is either not trying (lack of effort) or has eroding skills. That is some incredibly high and unfair expectations on Moss. Yes he's Randy Moss but to say that no one should ever make a play against him? DBs have made plays against him even in his absolute prime, just not often.

Randy Moss has 4 inches on Jammer and is one of the game's great leapers. He didn't bother jumping for the ball. That would be either a lack of effort or piss poor judgment of his opponent's abilities. We are consistently told by BB that Moss is one of the smartest football minds he's ever seen in a player, so the judgment issue should be out the door. That leaves effort.

You can't judge effort by results, and on TV the only apparent effort is judged from body language. Moss is very smart and intentionally looks the same no matter how fast he is going, which makes it that much tougher on DBs trying to judge Moss, his speed etc...

Anywho, I'm just really wondering where you see this obvious lack of effort, especially if not from any sort of body language.

He's smart but couldn't figure out that he should jump for the first ball since he'd already slowed down and lost momentum, and jumping would have given him a huge advantage when it comes to the height achieved while trying to catch the ball? He's smart, but couldn't figure out that he needed to get that ball away from Jammer before it got knocked loose? That doesn't seem all that smart to me.

Unless, of course, it was a question of effort..... then it makes sense.

 

[emoney_33]

Whoa..... you're conflating two things.

1.) Should Moss have had the catches?

2.) If the answer to #1 is yes, why didn't Moss make the catch?

Reiss seems to think Moss should have had them, but doesn't specifically say why he felt he didn't get them. You are welcome to come to a reason other than effort if you can think of one that fits in Reiss' equation. Felger has some comments about them as well, and he does point to effort:

WEEI 850AM Sports Radio - Pats Flunk Out In San Diego

I didn't want to bring him up because of the reaction that so many here have towards the guy but, as I said, it's not as if I'm alone in this. However, if you you want to kill Felger, take a look at what he points out about Madden's commentary.

It doesn't matter how many people say it, it doesn't mean it's true.

Are you saying any and every missed opportunity has to be due to effort? And Jammer should 100% be incapable of making a good/great play against Moss?

 

[emoney_33]

Actual actions, or lack therof



Randy Moss has 4 inches on Jammer and is one of the game's great leapers. He didn't bother jumping for the ball. That would be either a lack of effort or piss poor judgment of his opponent's abilities. We are consistently told by BB that Moss is one of the smartest football minds he's ever seen in a player, so the judgment issue should be out the door. That leaves effort.



He's smart but couldn't figure out that he should jump for the first ball since he'd already slowed down and lost momentum, and jumping would have given him a huge advantage when it comes to the height achieved while trying to catch the ball? He's smart, but couldn't figure out that he needed to get that ball away from Jammer before it got knocked loose? That doesn't seem all that smart to me.

Unless, of course, it was a question of effort..... then it makes sense.

Do you understand what he did on the play? It's not as simple as "JUMP FOR IT DAMNIT!"

He slowed down, attempted to use his body to shield Jammer, and then put his hands up at the last second. Jammer made a great play and hit it as it was coming into Randy's hands.

Moss has great judgement... not perfect judgement.

 

[Deus Irae]

It doesn't matter how many people say it, it doesn't mean it's true.

Are you saying any and every missed opportunity has to be due to effort? And Jammer should 100% be incapable of making a good/great play against Moss?

You claim that we can't tell effort by body language, etc.... yet you're making the claim that it wasn't an effort issue. How is it that you feel that we who don't think he gave 'full' effort can't make that call, but you can?

As for the followup, Moss had position in both cases. He's Randy Moss. Often, one man's great play is a result of another's less than stellar play. That's what happened with those throws.

 

[Deus Irae]

Do you understand what he did on the play? It's not as simple as "JUMP FOR IT DAMNIT!"

He slowed down, attempted to use his body to shield Jammer, and then put his hands up at the last second. Jammer made a great play and hit it as it was coming into Randy's hands.

Moss has great judgement... not perfect judgement.

Your argument is now:

a.) Moss had slowed down and used his body to shield Jammer

b.) Moss, therefore, was in superior position (you don't state this, but it follows logically)

c.) Moss somehow didn't make the play despite superior position, 4 inches of height with the arm length that goes along with it, and with the easy ability to just jump for the ball.

d.) This failure to simply jump for the ball when his 'judgment' was good enough for him to adjust to the ball and shield the defender was all about judgment

So, I'm accused of using body language when I'm actually talking about specific physical actions, but you don't mind reading into Moss' mind about judgment? Interesting double standard.....