PostGame Thread 2023 Week 2: Patriots Lose to Dolphins 24-17

[PatriotReign]

It's the whole "chicken vs egg" situation. There were plenty of times where both won games because of the other. Go back and think about that playoff game against the Ravens (among a couple of others) where Brady didn't play his best, but they did enough on the other side to weather it.

It's easy to go there. But at the end of the day, they each benefited from working together and it's funny how, prior to Brady leaving, everyone looked at the Cleveland situation with context seeing how that team was 3-1 and playing well before the rug got pulled, one year from a playoff run. Now, the media pulled out those numbers and people are just parroting that nonsense.

Again, I would say thinking the same formula would work may be the one thing you can fault him for since they didn't follow the lead of what other teams in the league have done with a young QB. But as far as the Brady vs Belichick thing, it is what it is.

And as I said, be glad it happened that way for Brady's sake. Because you'd be hearing about all the guys who the talking heads would be saying are potentially better had he not pulled off that win in Tampa. You could also see - whether they got along or not - the difference that Arians made and how Brady didn't pull off another one after he stepped down.

If AB keeps his **** together until the offseason and Tristan Wirfs doesn't go down in the wildcard he probably gets that 8th ring and retires. I'm no fan of Toilet Bowles but looking at their offense now Leftwich was the problem and should have taken the Jagwads job when his name was golden.

 

[Ian]

I remembered you masking this point before i never got a chance to address it.

I had a discussion with a Bills Fan before and he brought a stat up that showed mobile QBs are not getting hurt anymore than pocket passers..

QBs are getting hurt off of just being hit, landing funny, throwing arm getting banged etc...not cause they decided to run and got crushed n hurt because they took off running, in general .

I guess, but I don't know if they're taking into account quarterbacks collectively or not with that data. I'm sure there are plenty of bad teams who lost multiple guys further down the depth chart that probably muddy that total.

All I know is last year, Allen had an elbow issue, Mahomes had an ankle injury, Tua was concussed, Lamar Jackson was hurt, and there's one or two more I can't recall that were significant late in the year. Among the meaningful names among NFL starters, they were all mobile/dual threat QBs.

You can also go back RGIII, Michael Vick, etc. ... a lot of athletic quarterbacks got hurt pretty badly. Jameis Winston is another ... Russell Wilson took some shots ... a lot of those types of players take a lot of hits. There's just so many big strong guys coming after them and the more times they put themselves out there, the more chances there are for them to get injured.

 

[Ian]

If AB keeps his **** together until the offseason and Tristan Wirfs doesn't go down in the wildcard he probably gets that 8th ring and retires. I'm no fan of Toilet Bowles but looking at their offense now Leftwich was the problem and should have taken the Jagwads job when his name was golden.

Would have been nice if he had done that in 2019. Him not working out swung the pendulum in the wrong direction because he certainly appeared to be the piece they needed the one week they had him.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I guess, but I don't know if they're taking into account quarterbacks collectively or not with that data. I'm sure there are plenty of bad teams who lost multiple guys further down the depth chart that probably muddy that total.

All I know is last year, Allen had an elbow issue, Mahomes had an ankle injury, Tua was concussed, Lamar Jackson was hurt, and there's one or two more I can't recall that were significant late in the year. Among the meaningful names among NFL starters, they were all mobile/dual threat QBs.

You can also go back RGIII, Michael Vick, etc. ... a lot of athletic quarterbacks got hurt pretty badly. Jameis Winston is another... Russell Wilson took some shots ... a lot of those types of players take a lot of hits. There's just so many big strong guys coming after them and the more times they put themselves out there, the more chances there are for them to get injured.

 

[Schmo]

They need to get the ball to Thornton in space the way Miami does with Hill. Heaving the ball downfield hasn't worked out, and he has had some success making yards after the catch in what limited opportunities he's had. He just needs to develop the Deion Branch method of self-preservation and get down before he gets hit. Branch sort of proved you can be successful doing that, so maybe that will work for him ... who knows.

Hell, Edelman and Amendola had to do the same.... probably not as much as they should have.

My favorite memories of Moss weren't his long TDs or breaking the record..... I remember him getting to a spot quicker than everyone else, grabbing the ball, and sitting the **** down. That was what cemented the longevity/big play dichotomy that WRs (or all players) face in my mind.

If you wanted a solution to the offensive problem from me, we need:

1) more time in the pocket and a solid OL unit (we have the personnel, but we have to be patient)

And

2) receivers getting open reliably (which I think we're closer to)

Mac isn't even close to one of my concerns.

 

[Ian]

With an unproven Mac its more of a gamble, with Brady back then signing a guy like Welker for 18M was not as big a gamble cause you knew what you had throwing him the ball and would get the best out of him,Mac doesn't make any receiver better at this point

He's a third-year player ... not a lot of third-year guys fall into that category. Like most young QBs, he needs guys to make him better. And that's going to be a theme unless we get lucky again.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I guess, but I don't know if they're taking into account quarterbacks collectively or not with that data. I'm sure there are plenty of bad teams who lost multiple guys further down the depth chart that probably muddy that total.

All I know is last year, Allen had an elbow issue, Mahomes had an ankle injury, Tua was concussed, Lamar Jackson was hurt, and there's one or two more I can't recall that were significant late in the year. Among the meaningful names among NFL starters, they were all mobile/dual threat QBs.

You can also go back RGIII, Michael Vick, etc. ... a lot of athletic quarterbacks got hurt pretty badly. Jameis Winston is another ... a lot of those types of players take a lot of hits. There's just so many big strong guys coming after them and the more times they put themselves out there, the more chances there are for them to get injured.

Randall Cunningham was probably the best scrambling/running QB i've seen in my lifetime and even he got sacked nearly 500 times - that can shorten a career for sure but he was tough as nails and nearly lasted as long as Tom did lol

 

[Ian]

Randall Cunningham was probably the best scrambling/running QB i've seen in my lifetime and even he got sacked nearly 500 times - that can shorten a career for sure but he was tough as nails and nearly lasted as long as Tom did lol

LOL, there are always exceptions to the rule. Although I think even Cunningham had a knee injury at one point and if I recall, he played on that God-awful turf at that stadium that was basically concrete. The fact he lasted as long as he did is nothing short of a miracle.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

He's a third-year player ... not a lot of third-year guys fall into that category. Like most young QBs, he needs guys to make him better. And that's going to be a theme unless we get lucky again.

we just need to get some veteran talent that isn't nearing 40 years old or on the tail end of his career in FA in 2024 and maybe find another young talent in the draft and then we will see if it helps Mac

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

I guess, but I don't know if they're taking into account quarterbacks collectively or not with that data. I'm sure there are plenty of bad teams who lost multiple guys further down the depth chart that probably muddy that total.

All I know is last year, Allen had an elbow issue, Mahomes had an ankle injury, Tua was concussed, Lamar Jackson was hurt, and there's one or two more I can't recall that were significant late in the year. Among the meaningful names among NFL starters, they were all mobile/dual threat QBs.

You can also go back RGIII, Michael Vick, etc. ... a lot of athletic quarterbacks got hurt pretty badly. Jameis Winston is another ... a lot of those types of players take a lot of hits. There's just so many big strong guys coming after them and the more times they put themselves out there, the more chances there are for them to get injured.

The data was pretty current when it was showed to me (i wish i had kept it) , but with all those QBs that were mobile

There was Jones w his ribs last year
Borrow
Matt Stafford
Brock Purdy

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

LOL, there are always exceptions to the rule. Although I think even Cunningham had a knee injury at one point and if I recall, he played on that God-awful turf at that stadium that was basically concrete. The fact he lasted as long as he did is nothing short of a miracle.

yeah he did get hurt badly 1 year if I recall - back then you could pummel a QB and not get a flag when football rules were less soft in the 80s ect

 

[Guts]

If AB keeps his **** together until the offseason and Tristan Wirfs doesn't go down in the wildcard he probably gets that 8th ring and retires. I'm no fan of Toilet Bowles but looking at their offense now Leftwich was the problem and should have taken the Jagwads job when his name was golden.

Godwin was gone for that year too the security blanket and Gronk was injured too lol

 

[Ian]

we just need to get some veteran talent that isn't nearing 40 years old or on the tail end of his career in FA in 2024 and maybe find another young talent in the draft and then we will see if it helps Mac

I think - unfortunately - time (at least for this season) is the other thing we need. Offensive line needs time to gel and work together in this new offense, and I think they'll get better offensively. We saw it last year, and I think under O'Brien, they'll improve much sooner and be better than we've seen these last two weeks. What their ceiling is will be the question.

And a lot can change between now and the end of the year. I mean, look at the roster every season in December vs September, there are always significant changes. For all we know, they could make a move ahead of the deadline if things aren't going well, also. It's a long season. Stinks they're 0-2, but we just have to let it play out.

 

[PatriotReign]

Would have been nice if he had done that in 2019. Him not working out swung the pendulum in the wrong direction because he certainly appeared to be the piece they needed the one week they had him.

Imo they wouldn't have gone to the SB had he kept his demons at bay anyway, Edelman and AB would have been great but the line was subpar that year, TE was a disaster, and the rest of the receiving room flamed out badly: Gordon, DT, Dorsett, ugh Sanu. Defense also got exposed halfway through the year. IT reminds me a lot of 2015 when the team started out blazing hot but over the weeks attrition ruined their chances.

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

Here's a link I found that break downs QBs that are mobile aren't getting injured at a higher rate than pocket passers..

first few paragraphs are talking about fantasy numbers blah blah but it does get into the break down

Mobile Quarterbacks and Injury Rates | Fantasy Points

Is the increased likelihood of injury to mobile QBs just as much of a myth as injury-prone? Dr. Edwin Porras examines.

fantasypts.com

Paragraph from the link....

THE MATH​

Thesis: There is no evidence that mobile quarterbacks are injured more frequently or more severely than quarterbacks who rush less often.
The quarterback position is most susceptible to shoulder injuries by a mile. Next most common sites of injury are hands and ankles. Additionally, quarterbacks are injured more often than offensive linemen, linebackers, defensive linemen, and kicker/punters on a per 100 athlete exposure basis. So, what archetype is responsible for this injury rate? Rushing quarterbacks is a reasonable place to start looking but the argument quickly falls apart.

 

[Ian]

Imo they wouldn't have gone to the SB had he kept his demons at bay anyway, Edelman and AB would have been great but the line was subpar that year, TE was a disaster, and the rest of the receiving room flamed out badly: Gordon, DT, Dorsett, ugh Sanu. Defense also got exposed halfway through the year. IT reminds me a lot of 2015 when the team started out blazing hot but over the weeks attrition ruined their chances.

Tough to say, but whenever you add a target like that, it opens up things drastically for other people. As it was, they started out tremendously well without him, and I think they would have won more games down the stretch that would have changed the seedings and given them a better shot. It's just unfortunate the way it ended, but as you said, who knows how it would have gone.

 

[PatriotReign]

As for the Patriots, Mac is an Andy Dalton level quarterback on his best day. When the situation is ideal he's a B- to B level quarterback and even I feel a little generous saying that. With lesser talent he's a C, not a bad starter but more suited to being a backup. To me he doesn't inspire confidence and doesn't have winner's intangibles at the PRO level. It's not all of his fault but this is a good draft to look at QB if he doesn't show growth despite the limited offensive personnel and they bottom out. The defense once again looks solid but not world beaters, they will be a top 10 unit pending health.

 

[Ian]

The data was pretty current when it was showed to me (i wish i had kept it) , but with all those QBs that were mobile

There was Jones w his ribs last year
Borrow
Matt Stafford
Brock Purdy

I hear you and, as I said, I'm sure the data was somewhat watered down by the Case Keenums of the world and other names, which I'm sure played a role there. I think we saw a couple of guys whose names I can't even remember go down like that last year in one game if I recall ... although which one it was escapes me.

But again, percentage-wise - at least when it comes to the elite or notable starters among the top teams - the guys I mentioned were all players who were injured down the stretch last year. With Purdy being the one exception.

I don't know any mobile/dual threat QBs I can think of who will play into their 40s. I feel pretty confident anyone who pulls that off will be the exception, not the rule. And that's even with the way the officials tend to protect those guys. It's like anything else, the more you run, the more prone you are to taking a shot that can sideline you.

Again, not saying you're wrong, especially not knowing how they broke it down. A lot of guys get hurt all season and many of them are guys we don't remember. Collectively, that study is probably pretty even. But among the starters or marquee guys, I would say it's probably a little different and those are the ones I was thinking of. And I think the career longevity thing is probably accurate. Or at least, it has been so far based on who we've seen make it into their late 30s or beyond.

 

[PATS16N0]

A lot of Pats fans have been left utterly delusional by the Brady era, so let’s just clear the air:
1. We’re not going to the playoffs.
2. September is not an ‘extended preseason’
3. Free agents are not signing here at a discount to “win a ring.”

More over, they play in the salary cap era. If we’re ever lucky enough to draft a true #1 WR, we’re only going to keep him for his first few seasons. Once you have to pay him, you lose your two best defensive players to do it.

Meaning you don’t have Jack **** in this league unless you have a true franchise quarterback that can weather no receivers, or no defense, or a **** o-line. Otherwise, these are just things that cost you games. The better the quarterback, the later into the season they cost you. The WORSE the quarterback, the earlier. In our case, they’re costing us in week 1, 2 with no end in sight.

If we lose to the Jets next week we should sell everything and get draft picks galore.

 

[Vindicate]

Defense is really really good. We've held two great offenses within a punchers chance, but our arms are too short to swing back. Gifted opportunities are just that: a surplus of scoring opportunities. Which becomes a problem for the defense, yet not controlled by the defense.