Is Patrick Chung the reason Jordan Richards is still on the team?

SammyBlueCat · Feb 22, 2018

Bill Belichick admitted 'mistake' in letting Patrick Chung go in 2013 - The Boston Globe

Bourne Again Christian · Feb 22, 2018

A dare gone horribly wrong.
Nobody thought Belichick could of been double dog dared to draft Richards and keep him on the team no matter what.
This is what led to Mike Lombardi being relieved of his duties.
Belichick never steps down from a dare and isn't starting now but he can't forgive Lombardi for what started as a harmless drinking game.

BlueThunder · Feb 22, 2018

Are Jordan and Jake best friends?

luuked · Feb 22, 2018

Wheelssps said:
It's exactly this that makes the Butler benching so confusing. I get that Butler might have been struggling with some coverage responsibilities., but I completely honestly would rather have had Butler playing the strong safety in the box role over Richards in the Super Bowl. He's much smaller, but is a better tackler, and there's absolutely no way he would have performed worse that Richards. Cover the RB's, TE's, fine, I would have trusted Butler more than Richards. If the Pats had a better option off of the bench, like a Chung lite, then fine. but Richards is like fat free Chung. Just a disgusting option. Richards just plays so slow, like Brady on a scramble slow. It's amazing seeing that speed out of a non-QB in the NFL. I just, but only slightly.

Jesus now we are moving into silly territory. Butler would not even survive half of a game as a SS. Teams would just run all over him until he is out with some kind of injury. I am not a fan of Richards in that role myself but lets not get stupid here.

Kdo5 · Feb 22, 2018

convertedpatsfan said:
First, Jordan ****ing Richards sucks. I just need to get that out of the way. What a ****ing terrible ****.

Richards is Chung's back-up. But is BB keeping Richards on the team because of how things went with Chung?

Chung was a second round pick who struggled in his first stint with the team. When he left, nobody seemed to care, and then he struggled with Philly and got cut.

Then BB brings him back and he's suddenly one of the most important players on the team. Belichick recently called him "one of the best players in the league." But Belichick also talked about how they misused Chung originally, and how that was the coach's fault. And now that Chung has emerged, I wonder if his success is influencing Bill into thinking Richards is going to emerge similarly.

For one thing, Chung was used as a free safety initially, and Belichick moved him to strong safety. Richards never projected to free safety, sucks at strong safety, and Belichick should move him off the roster.

For another, Chung can tackle. He was always a hard hitter. Richards has missed a lot of tackles. Even the forced fumble earlier in the year feels like it was more of a missed tackle that luckily hit the football than anything else.

I'm all for second and third chances. But even Chung had to get cut to get better. Teammates mentioned he's more detail-oriented and cerebral this time around. So if BB truly believes Richards can be Chung 2.0, he needs to cut him.

Oh what the hell am I talking about? Just ****ing cut the ****er already!

Chung the first time around was never as bad as Jordan Richards. The guy is a lost cause.

Wheelssps · Feb 22, 2018

luuked said:
Jesus now we are moving into silly territory. Butler would not even survive half of a game as a SS. Teams would just run all over him until he is out with some kind of injury. I am not a fan of Richards in that role myself but lets not get stupid here.

I understand your comment, but I counter that Richards could not tackle either. He wasn't performing the duties of his role, and I counter that Butler, even for half a game, could have done it better. We were about one defensive stop away from being on the other side of the final score, and I know it's hindsight, but I would have had more trust in Butler to try to make a play than Richards, even understanding Butler's size and Richards responsibilities.

Kontradiction · Feb 22, 2018

Wheelssps said:
I understand your comment, but I counter that Richards could not tackle either. He wasn't performing the duties of his role, and I counter that Butler, even for half a game, could have done it better. We were about one defensive stop away from being on the other side of the final score, and I know it's hindsight, but I would have had more trust in Butler to try to make a play than Richards, even understanding Butler's size and Richards responsibilities.

Chung was never as bad as Richards, but he was pretty bad. They misused him as a deep safety and that's just not Chung's game. He's better playing closer to the LoS and taking out the TE. The only role that Richards has on the defense is as a massive target for the opposing offense to attack time and again because the big play possibility is always there for him.

luuked · Feb 22, 2018

Wheelssps said:
I understand your comment, but I counter that Richards could not tackle either. He wasn't performing the duties of his role, and I counter that Butler, even for half a game, could have done it better. We were about one defensive stop away from being on the other side of the final score, and I know it's hindsight, but I would have had more trust in Butler to try to make a play than Richards, even understanding Butler's size and Richards responsibilities.

You are aware that the Eagles -- or any other NFL level team -- would just keep running the ball at a player like Butler in that role because it is a gigantic matchup advantage, right ? He would be plowed down more often than not giving up plays and yards in the process. This is not fantasy football or Madden where you can just plug people in based on some kind of rating.

Wheelssps · Feb 22, 2018

luuked said:
You are aware that the Eagles -- or any other NFL level team -- would just keep running the ball at a player like Butler in that role because it is a gigantic matchup advantage, right ? He would be plowed down more often than not giving up plays and yards in the process. This is not fantasy football or Madden where you can just plug people in based on some kind of rating.

I'm completely aware that it isn't Madden. I played both as a TE and as a DE four years in high school on the varsity, a far, far cry from D-1 or the NFL, but I'm aware that it isn't Madden, thanks.

I'm also aware of Richards role, and the duties he had in his role. Trying to go with a three or four safety look to try to simultaneously limit the run while also not giving up much in pass protection wasn't a bad gameplan, but Richards was a massive weak link in that gameplan. His tackling ability and his speed were the major limits to his inefficiencies. The Pats needed to either add a bigger thumper of a LB and a CB to replace two safeties, or they needed to have someone in there to better take care of the 3rd or 4th safety role, and I do believe that Butler could have done that role better.

Not an ideal by any means, I understand, and if they had a better option than Butler on the roster, it would have been much, much better, but I'm saying that Butler, COMPARED TO RICHARDS, could have done that better.

luuked · Feb 22, 2018

Wheelssps said:
I'm completely aware that it isn't Madden. I played both as a TE and as a DE four years in high school on the varsity, a far, far cry from D-1 or the NFL, but I'm aware that it isn't Madden, thanks.

I could not care less if you were a D1 player as long as it doesnt stop you from posting pretty silly matchup ideas.

Wheelssps said:
Not an ideal by any means, I understand, and if they had a better option than Butler on the roster, it would have been much, much better, but I'm saying that Butler, COMPARED TO RICHARDS, could have done that better.

You could have said M. Flowers or Bademosi and I would have not cared much about it but suggesting to put Butler there is something else.

Chris Stevenson · Feb 22, 2018

KontradictioN said:
Chung was never as bad as Richards, but he was pretty bad. They misused him as a deep safety and that's just not Chung's game. He's better playing closer to the LoS and taking out the TE. The only role that Richards has on the defense is as a massive target for the opposing offense to attack time and again because the big play possibility is always there for him.

What? Chung was taking out Ertz the entire rime before the injury. Do you watch all of these games? I mean, WTF? He's the best Rover in the league.

Only when Chung left did Ertz start to become a real problem.

He's sort of like the Kyle Arrington of Rovers. Any time a traditional quick twitch slot WR like a TY Hilton or whoever would need to be isolated out of that "Star" role, he did it.

Arington was exposed on the perimeter and with his range, like Chung, but conceptually, the quality of their play in those roles was good anyone in the league at that time and now with Chung.

Chris Stevenson · Feb 22, 2018

luuked said:
You are aware that the Eagles -- or any other NFL level team -- would just keep running the ball at a player like Butler in that role because it is a gigantic matchup advantage, right ? He would be plowed down more often than not giving up plays and yards in the process. This is not fantasy football or Madden where you can just plug people in based on some kind of rating.

That was the genuine reason of giving Bademosi more reps in practice leading up to the SB. Philly's run game is very good. Bademosi is statistically our best tackler at CB, and he is.

Who knows, but maybe if Butler wasn't crying like a 4 year old during the anthem, he would have at some point in the game as opposed to BB wondering how messed up, mentally, Butler actually was.

This is what people are missing:

1. 103 passer rating all year, our worst CB.
2. Flu
3. Late arrival, limited reps and bad reps.

4. Crying

luuked · Feb 22, 2018

Chris Stevenson said:
That was the genuine reason of giving Bademosi more reps in practice leading up to the SB. Philly's run game is very good. Bademosi is statistically our best tackler at CB, and he is.

I agree. His now most famous missed tackle nonewithstanding there is a reason why he has been a pretty well known ST player in the league. Same as M. Flowers...

Chris Stevenson · Feb 22, 2018

SammyBlueCat said:
Bill Belichick admitted 'mistake' in letting Patrick Chung go in 2013 - The Boston Globe

Well, he used him wrong, but I think it was out of necessity. This was the time when he was not only looking to deploy a Rover role, but he had to move McCourty there (Meriweather cut and other issues) and Sergio Brown was a pretty big failure.

Technically, BB has what he wants in the secondary with match ups in man, for any style player, and very cerebral guys who have high football IQ.

Chris Stevenson · Feb 22, 2018

luuked said:
I agree. His now most famous missed tackle nonewithstanding there is a reason why he has been a pretty well known ST player in the league. Same as M. Flowers...

Agree. The second he arrived, I asked my Lions colleague about him and he said "STs guy and good tacker".

It's true.

BB doesn't look at position. He looks at skill set. This why people are obsessing over Butler not playing over Bademosi.

This is why I felt Bademosi, who sort of looks like a Safety to me (High IQ, tackling, some solid size and range), SHOULD have been the choice, not Richards.

Once Chung comes back, Bademosi can on Toerry Smith, and then that would allow McCourty still being moved all around, deep, up front, blitzes, etc.

And, the missed tackle by bademosi on that 3rd down, was a tough one. I saw him racing in and I thought "stop and collect yourself, because you're going to overrun a really slippery WR"...

Agoholor is like Malcom Mitchell, but even more dangerous, IMO.

My argument has always been about which skill set where in man, not the idea Butler was never used.

mgteich · Feb 22, 2018

Ok, I'll be simplistic.

All our safeties have roles. We often use 3 safeties at the same time. Harmon can play center field, if McCourty has a different role in a particular game plan. Chung can backup Harmon, if Harmon is out.

HOWEVER, who backs up Chung?

We need a 4th safety who can play safety. We need a 4th safety to give us game plan (and during the game) options if one of the top three safeties is injured.
====
BOTTOM LINE

A) We need a safety who is able to take a major role on defense if someone is out.

B) Richards is not that player; he should be an STO player, as is Ebner. I'm fine with four safeties who can play safety, and two STO's in Ebner and Richards.

Chris Stevenson · Feb 22, 2018

mgteich said:
Ok, I'll be simplistic.

All our safeties have roles. We often use 3 safeties at the same time. Harmon can play center field, if McCourty has a different role in a particular game plan. Chung can backup Harmon, if Harmon is out.

HOWEVER, who backs up Chung?

We need a 4th safety who can play safety. We need a 4th safety to give us game plan (and during the game) options if one of the top three safeties is injured.
====
BOTTOM LINE

A) We need a safety who is able to take a major role on defense if someone is out.

B) Richards is not that player; he should be an STO player, as is Ebner. I'm fine with four safeties who can play safety, and two STO's in Ebner and Richards.

Who backs up Chung? I would like to see Bademosi. I am as flummoxed why Richards is deemed superior to Bademosi, as well.

TheFlyingWedge · Feb 22, 2018

primetime said:
First, Chung's one of the best box safeties in the league.

Second, Richards played meaningful snaps in the Super Bowl. One has to assume that the coaching staff sees something, or imagines that they see something, that we don't.

What could the coaching staff possibly see in Richards? Lord only knows

Chris Stevenson · Feb 22, 2018

TheFlyingWedge said:
What could the coaching staff possibly see in Richards? Lord only knows

When I was at the Greenbrier in 2015 to see the Saints/Pats for 2 days, I saw Richards and thought this:

1. Small/limited range.
2. Willing, good tackler.
3. Always around the ball.
4. Only can really play downhill.

Just my opinion. I don't see what Chung does with his toughness, smallish size, but "big" play, good lateral movement in the 10-15 yard box.

Richards cannot do that. I think BB saw Richards's consistent wrapping up as a tackler to defend against YAC, but if you can't get a jam at the line, the second you lose the jam, you're cooked because you lack size/speed to catch up and close.

I am not sure what Bademosi's Combine time was, but I know he's faster, has bigger size and range that Richards.

You would think Brandon King might be an option there, but since BB chose Richards to be Chung's back up, apparently not.

mgteich · Feb 22, 2018

BlueThunder said:
Are Jordan and Jake best friends?

Both are top Sters, and could/should make the team as STO players.

Is Patrick Chung the reason Jordan Richards is still on the team?

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