Provocative article on voluntary workouts

[ivanvamp]

Perhaps, but it isn't good for the employees or for those firms. I consult to them, and the start ups that are trying to eat their lunch, as well as biotech firms in similar environments. They are overly competitive and under collaborative. And all of the legitimate research - all of it - that compares situations where people can either compete or collaborate inside organizations shows definitively that collaboration provides better ROI in the short term and long term.

Understood. But when there are 10 people collaborating in their working group, and one promotion becomes available, guess what? Suddenly those 10 people that are collaborating are now competing.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I don't know about that. In some ways it sounds reasonable, but you really think these universities are going to just give up college football without a fight? Not gonna happen.

An NFL run minor league system could pay athletes and also prepare them for the pro game far better than college football, with the best high-school talent going to the minor NFL college football would soon much of it's luster to the fanbase.

 

[ivanvamp]

An NFL run minor league system could pay athletes and also prepare them for the pro game far better than college football, with the best high-school talent going to the minor NFL college football would soon much of it's luster to the fanbase.

The problem is that the college game is a monster, and it's currently the NFL's pipeline. It would take years for the NFL to get a minor league system up and running. In the meanwhile, colleges wouldn't take this lying down. Right now the NFL needs the colleges, and if they made a move to essentially end college football, how do you think the colleges would react to that? Unless they could implement it *INSTANTLY*, there's no way they could do it without killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The problem is that the college game is a monster, and it's currently the NFL's pipeline. It would take years for the NFL to get a minor league system up and running. In the meanwhile, colleges wouldn't take this lying down. Right now the NFL needs the colleges, and if they made a move to essentially end college football, how do you think the colleges would react to that? Unless they could implement it *INSTANTLY*, there's no way they could do it without killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

What would the colleges do? The NFL can pay players and colleges can't.

 

[primetime]

Hard for me to feel much simpatico here because folks working in competitive high tech companies (Google, Apple...) and high tech startups are expected to "voluntarily" work nights and weekends ad infinitum for far less reward. And God help anyone who tries to take 2 whole weeks of vacation.

Employees at tech companies (though not necessarily startups) are paid very well and receive great perks (served breakfast, lunch, dinner; nap rooms; game rooms; no dress code; etc.) as a way to justify this but you're correct in that they're essentially just ways to obfuscate overworking employees. I will say that these workers generally have the options to basically work wherever they want, however, though that is no excuse for certain exploitative practices. For example, ee're the only developed nation that doesn't guarantee all employees paid vacation.

As for sports careers outside of playing, there are a large number of universities with sports management programs. Too many, in fact. The problem there is with labor market supply and demand. There are such a large number of people graduating from these programs who desperately want to be employed in sports that they'll work for below-market salaries to utilize their niche degree. Aside from the upper level executive and management staff, as well as agents (who are a very tiny group of lawyers) and the football personnel including coaches and players, everyone else involved in the operation gets paid peanuts. Part of this is because while coaches and players are unionized and collectively bargain, the rest of the staff members are not.

Finally, the NCAA is a toxic and terrible system that exploits young people by making money off them and telling them that they're getting an 'education' instead, even if they actually care little about an education (moreover, an education doesn't go nearly as far as it has in the past).

And the NFL is the most willing to collude with the NCAA on this. In hockey, you can play juniors or in Europe (where you are paid) or enter the NHL at 18 if you're good enough; in basketball, you could theoretically go to Europe but you can at least leave college after a single year (still a terrible rule, but better than the required 3 for football); in baseball you can enter the professional farm system at 18. There was hope when Maurice Clarett got federal courts to rule the NFL/NCAA collusion as contrary to workers' rights, but unsurprisingly the clout of capital got it overturned on appeal (and screwed over poor Mike Williams, who did nothing wrong, in the process).

 

[tombonneau]

What would the colleges do? The NFL can pay players and colleges can't.

If the NFL wanted to go this route they wouldn't need a farm league; they could just remove the current rule of a player needing to be X years removed from high school to play in the NFL.

However, they wouldn't do this. That's because the college system provides a valid sample size of player performance so that teams can best evaluate what assets they want to invest in.

If you try to replace that system, it will be decades before a farm system could replicate the type of competition required for proper player evaluation.

And you're failing to look at it from the player/student POV. What % of NCAA football players go on to paid football careers, nevermind NFL player. 5%-10%? Even that is probably high.

So you have thousands of kids every year who filling out college rosters for a free education and have no realistic shot of an NFL career. Why would those kids go to a farm system?

This is a classic case of ain't broke don't fix it. This isn't like the NBA where it's much easier for a high school player to be evaluated for pro success. The most hyped HS players I can think of from the last few years are Terrelle Pryor and Jimmy Clausen. That's why you won't have a farm system.

 

[ivanvamp]

If the NFL wanted to go this route they wouldn't need a farm league; they could just remove the current rule of a player needing to be X years removed from high school to play in the NFL.

However, they wouldn't do this. That's because the college system provides a valid sample size of player performance so that teams can best evaluate what assets they want to invest in.

If you try to replace that system, it will be decades before a farm system could replicate the type of competition required for proper player evaluation.

And you're failing to look at it from the player/student POV. What % of NCAA football players go on to paid football careers, nevermind NFL player. 5%-10%? Even that is probably high.

So you have thousands of kids every year who filling out college rosters for a free education and have no realistic shot of an NFL career. Why would those kids go to a farm system?

This is a classic case of ain't broke don't fix it. This isn't like the NBA where it's much easier for a high school player to be evaluated for pro success. The most hyped HS players I can think of from the last few years are Terrelle Pryor and Jimmy Clausen. That's why you won't have a farm system.

Oh the system is very broken. But I agree with you that a minor league football system is really not a possibility. It'll take many, many years for them to implement it, and college football has all kinds of power with television, and more. No way they just take the destruction of their game lying down.

 

[primetime]

It would be easier (and justifiable) to separate the academy from college sports as they do in Europe, where there are professional or semi-professional teams that are attached to a university but where the players do not have to be students at the university. At least give the players the option of being paid in money rather than in 'education.'

 

[Snake Eyes]

If the NFL wanted to go this route they wouldn't need a farm league; they could just remove the current rule of a player needing to be X years removed from high school to play in the NFL.

That would make no sense, right now the NFL has to project how a college player will do in the pros, your route would leave them with projecting high school players to the NFL.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The problem is that the college game is a monster, and it's currently the NFL's pipeline. It would take years for the NFL to get a minor league system up and running. In the meanwhile, colleges wouldn't take this lying down. Right now the NFL needs the colleges, and if they made a move to essentially end college football, how do you think the colleges would react to that? Unless they could implement it *INSTANTLY*, there's no way they could do it without killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

1 - The NFL can pay players, college teams can't, what are they going to do about it?

2 - Suppose it does take years, or maybe they just resurrect NFL Europe and open it to players just out of high school, if the college system endures then they havent killed anything as a talent farm. I think even with a minor league you'd still have college football but it would be drastically reduced.

 

[ivanvamp]

1 - The NFL can pay players, college teams can't, what are they going to do about it?

How much would the NFL pay? Right now there are about 625 colleges and universities that have football teams. Obviously most of them do not produce NFL caliber talent, but occasionally tiny no-name schools send a person to the NFL. So believe me, the NFL pays attention to *everything*. How many teams would the NFL have in their minor league system, do you think? The more teams, the more players, the more expensive it is for each franchise. If you're just going to have, say, two minor league teams per NFL franchise, you're still going to have college football be a *major* thing, and the problems do not go away. In order for the current, broken, system to go away, you'd need to have a TON of minor league teams. How much would each guy make? In baseball, here's the rough pay scale (per month...figure about 5 months...they don't get paid during spring training or in the off-season):

Level 1st Year 2nd Year 3rd Year
Rookie $1150 $1200 $1250
Short Season A $1150 $1200 $1250
Low A $1300 $1350 $1400
High A $1500 $1550 $1600
Double A $1700 $1800 $1900
Triple A $2150 $2400 $2700

The average out-of-state costs for Alabama is about $20,000. So if you are a star, you might move up to Triple A right away out of high school, and you could make, what, $13,000 about? You have to find and pay for your own housing and food, etc. And you have to figure out what you're gonna do to make $$ the rest of the year.

If you go to Alabama, your food, clothing, housing, tuition, gear, you name it, is covered. You stay in the nicest dorms and get state-of-the-art facilities. You are big men on campus. You are taken care of year-round and don't have to figure out what to do with yourself for the other six months of the year. You are stars at Alabama...you are not stars in the minor leagues.

Tell me why a kid would choose the minor leagues instead of Alabama, given these facts? Some might, but most won't, unless you pay them a LOT.

2 - Suppose it does take years, or maybe they just resurrect NFL Europe and open it to players just out of high school, if the college system endures then they havent killed anything as a talent farm. I think even with a minor league you'd still have college football but it would be drastically reduced.

It wouldn't work. Sorry.

 

[primetime]

That would make no sense, right now the NFL has to project how a college player will do in the pros, your route would leave them with projecting high school players to the NFL.

But your thinking about this is completely backwards. It should be about the players and not about competitiveness, which benefits owners. Currently, players have no choice but to play - or intern, essentially - for three uncompensated years in which they are employed at the will of the university and risk injury that could completely annihilate their future earning potential.

The best solution is a hybrid farm-college system where the teams retain college sponsorship (you can still have the University of Georgia Bulldogs) but the players are salaried and are not required to attend university classes, though they may choose to spend their paycheck on tuition (perhaps at a reduced rate, especially at very expensive private universities) if they so choose. You can even retain the 3 years rule for NFL teams, thus creating a pseudo-juniors system of sorts where the NFL draft age is 21 rather than 18. Then the next step would be to have a farm league for those over 21 who are not yet ready for the NFL, perhaps a 16 team league where each NFL franchise shares with another (AFC/NFC pairings, most likely) and the NFL pays operations costs and salaries.

 

[patfanken]

I've got a different attitude about this, after reading this post and the one above it. The reason for the collective bargaining is to create some breathing space for the players from this kind of hyper competition. It isn't like there is a shortage of competitive opportunity for the coaches to make their decisions. The players want a break, a small window in the year, where the competitive activity is limited to their private workouts. Make it even more Darwinian doesn't improve anything.

I've made it clear to employers (past) and clients (more recently) that family always comes first and that I block off time for that stuff. Including dance recitals. It isn't BS.

"breathing space"???? Give me a break BTTA. Have you forgotten that MOST players in the league get ALL of January and February off. In March and April they are only required to work out either by themselves or in organized team workouts about 3 hours a day 4 days a week The "voluntary" amount to about 12 days IIRC, and the Mandatory Mini Camp is 3 days

Since the 2011 CBA the opportunities for coaches to observe meaningful competition has shrunk significantly, most HS programs, and every college program will have more 2 a days than any NFL team Most HS programs and every college program will have more padded practices.

So you will have to pardon me if I don't show more sympathy for you and Cary Williams views on the "voluntary OTA's. Sounds like whining to me. Players these days have NEVER been treated better or have been more protected than they have in recent days......and NEVER more well paid.

They also have made the decision to make their living in a very very competitive field. If they choose to allow others the opportunity to show what they have to offer in their place, then they shouldn't be shocked or disappointed if they should lose their jobs to these other players.

BTW- not showing up doesn't mean a player isn't working hard. For example if Brandon Spikes shows up to camp and is faster, quicker, and in super shape and actually IS ready to compete to be a 3 down LB, then no one will give a crap about a dozen shorts and tee shirts practices he missed in May and June. If he doesn't, then that will be another story.

Cary Williams needs to get a grip on reality here. If he needs more time than 4 full months off to be a good dad, then he sucks as a dad. Almost every working stiff in the land works tons of hours each year. Many more than any football players will put in, and most won't make what an NFL player makes in a week for a full year.

 

[Snake Eyes]

How much would the NFL pay? Right now there are about 625 colleges and universities that have football teams. Obviously most of them do not produce NFL caliber talent, but occasionally tiny no-name schools send a person to the NFL. So believe me, the NFL pays attention to *everything*. How many teams would the NFL have in their minor league system, do you think? The more teams, the more players, the more expensive it is for each franchise. If you're just going to have, say, two minor league teams per NFL franchise, you're still going to have college football be a *major* thing, and the problems do not go away. In order for the current, broken, system to go away, you'd need to have a TON of minor league teams. How much would each guy make? In baseball, here's the rough pay scale (per month...figure about 5 months...they don't get paid during spring training or in the off-season):

Level 1st Year 2nd Year 3rd Year
Rookie $1150 $1200 $1250
Short Season A $1150 $1200 $1250
Low A $1300 $1350 $1400
High A $1500 $1550 $1600
Double A $1700 $1800 $1900
Triple A $2150 $2400 $2700

The average out-of-state costs for Alabama is about $20,000. So if you are a star, you might move up to Triple A right away out of high school, and you could make, what, $13,000 about? You have to find and pay for your own housing and food, etc. And you have to figure out what you're gonna do to make $$ the rest of the year.

If you go to Alabama, your food, clothing, housing, tuition, gear, you name it, is covered. You stay in the nicest dorms and get state-of-the-art facilities. You are big men on campus. You are taken care of year-round and don't have to figure out what to do with yourself for the other six months of the year. You are stars at Alabama...you are not stars in the minor leagues.

Tell me why a kid would choose the minor leagues instead of Alabama, given these facts? Some might, but most won't, unless you pay them a LOT.



It wouldn't work.

It wouldnt work? Yeah, the fact that minor leagues already DO work right now in baseball must be my imagination

You don't need a ton of teams, you only need enough to groom the better talent.

 

[Snake Eyes]

But your thinking about this is completely backwards. It should be about the players and not about competitiveness, which benefits owners. Currently, players have no choice but to play - or intern, essentially - for three uncompensated years in which they are employed at the will of the university and risk injury that could completely annihilate their future earning potential.

If it doesn't benefit owners then it won't happen, I've already said that I want to see those athletes paid, which is ABOUT THE PLAYERS. You might want to read my posts before calling my thinking backwards.

 

[primetime]

They also have made the decision to make their living in a very very competitive field. If they choose to allow others the opportunity to show what they have to offer in their place, then they shouldn't be shocked or disappointed if they should lose their jobs to these other players.

Actually, if they lost their jobs directly as a result of skipping voluntary workouts, that would be a violation of their rights as workers because they collectively bargained for explicitly voluntary workouts.

 

[primetime]

If it doesn't benefit owners then it won't happen, I've already said that I want to see those athletes paid, which is ABOUT THE PLAYERS. You might want to read my posts before calling my thinking backwards.

Fair enough. I must have misunderstood your argument.

 

[ivanvamp]

It wouldnt work? Yeah, the fact that minor leagues already DO work right now in baseball must be my imagination

I'm trying not to be snarky here, but your eye roll makes it difficult. Still, I'll bite my tongue and simply point out that it's apples to oranges in this regard: pro baseball has been around as long as (and even longer than) college baseball. As I pointed out in a previous post, college football had been around for 40+ years before the NFL started. If we were starting a new sport from scratch, yes, perhaps a minor league system is doable. But not with college football already being the behemoth that it is.

You don't need a ton of teams, you only need enough to groom the better talent.

So what problem are you actually trying to solve here? Are you just trying to improve the pro football product? Or are you trying to do something else?

 

[tombonneau]

That would make no sense, right now the NFL has to project how a college player will do in the pros, your route would leave them with projecting high school players to the NFL.

LOL you mean like I literally wrote in the next paragraph?

 

[Synovia]

Hard for me to feel much simpatico here because folks working in competitive high tech companies (Google, Apple...) and high tech startups are expected to "voluntarily" work nights and weekends ad infinitum for far less reward. And God help anyone who tries to take 2 whole weeks of vacation.

Only if you work for ****ty companies.

(Google and Apple are actually really good to their employees. And actually pay people for overtime).