Zach Thomas to be released [mergedx2]

[TripleOption]

Re: Zach Thomas to be Cut

Yeah, their NT tends to be a 2 gap while their ends shoot them. But since they're a blitz-happy defense, their ends are sometimes called on to have more responsibility. They don't alternate, per se, but do as need dictates.

I think that's SOP in any odd front. We run a 3-5 stack which is an 8 man front stunting/slanting 1 Gap chaos defense (reference West Virginia U). We will 2 Gap our NG sometimes to cover gaps on stunts.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

I would be very cautious about making this assumption. "Avoiding" Guards is dangerous. In the 4-3, a LB can run down ballcarriers and make plays freelancing.

In the 3-4, he run fits are precise and if the playside LB fits too wide, the RB will cut back behind him. If he doesn't fit wide enough, the Guard can cut him off. You tend to see alot of LB's using their hands and arm extension to get free of blocks.

When you see Seau making plays unblocked, like he did against San Diego, he is usually taking the "window" that opens up for the backside LB. If the OL had stepped down and cut off gaps like they are supposed to, Seau never would have made that play.

Of course it is dangerous which is why it isnt standard in 2 gap principles. However, the job of that ILB is to control both gaps. If he reads the play quickly (ultimately the most important skill of any LB at any level is reading the play) he does control both gaps by beating the block.
The standard of the 3-4 is to step up into the area, engage and shed the blocker. However if you read the play, and beat the block without engaging, you are still controlling both blocks.
Put another way, the standard role of a 3-4 ILB is to step up into the area, and control the area at the los. Another way to accomplish that is to run past the block as it is developing (especially a combo block that chips the NT, or a trap play) and defend both gaps behind the los.
You do not see if done often in a BB defense, but a guy like Seau, and to a lesser extent Bruschi will do it. It's a matter of using your best skills to get the same result. If you do not possess those skills you will not be on the field long. Monte Beisel fit that mold of playing the ILB spot that way, and did not read or react as quickly as needed and failed.
He was not brought here to play a Ted Johnson or Bryan Cox style, he was brought here to play as Seau has or Thomas would, it just turned out he wasn't very good.

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

I would advise you to go back and watch tape of the 3-4. Try to figure out of you what you think you are seeing is the LB shooting into the backfield or being sent on a stunt.

I don't see a LB charging in the backfield as "controlling both gaps". He has now given up leverage on whichever gap he did not take.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

I would advise you to go back and watch tape of the 3-4. Try to figure out of you what you think you are seeing is the LB shooting into the backfield or being sent on a stunt.

I don't see a LB charging in the backfield as "controlling both gaps". He has now given up leverage on whichever gap he did not take.

You have an awfully arrogant attitude toward your incorrect opinions.
But, I'll explain in more detail so you can follow.
If I am an ILB in a 3-4, I have KEYS. Bruschi for example, keys the FB, and Gs. He has said this numerous times.
The reason you have a key is so that you can read and assess the play. If you are simply stepping up to the line of scrimmage in the area the G is aligned, you don't need keys.
If you read the FB, and the G, and see the G blocking down on the NT, and FB leading the play toward either side of the T, you are not going to step up to the line of scrimmage, and set yourself up to be blocked by the G coming off the chip block. You are going to step up BEYOND the line of scrimmage (not run like your pants are on fire) but beat the block of the G by getting beyond where he is coming to. You are controlling both gaps by being in the same area of the field (east-west) but are controlling them behind the line, rather than at the line where you are now being blocked.
As I said, one of the principles of the 2 gap system is that every gap has TWO players with resposnibility for it. The risk of one player being taken out of the play is less in a 2gap system than a one-gap.
The point is not 'picking a side' and running with reckless abandon into the gap they are trying to block you into. The point is READING THE BLOCKING SCHEME and getting to the point of attack before the scheme develops.
Jr Seau isnt making plays in the backfield because he picks a gap and hopes. He is making plays in the backfield, because he diagnoses the play quickly, and beats the blocking scheme. If you are a LB and you read the play, you do not sit and wait for it to come to you, you go to the point of attack.
When the play is run directly at you, the blocking scheme eliminates anything but engaging and shedding the blocker. When the play starts away from you, as a 34 ILB your job is to step up into the cutback lane before pursuing. When the play is going outside of you on your side of the ball, your job is to dianose the blocking scheme, step up, and force the runner to take a wider berth of east-west and/or make the tackle in the backfield.

Playing LB effectively is not "you go to this spot and stand there, and hit anything that comes along" it is about reading plays and making plays. The responsibilities of an ILB on 10 differently designed running plays directed at different holes with different blocking schemes are 10 different sets of resposibilities.

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

You have an awfully arrogant attitude toward your incorrect opinions.
But, I'll explain in more detail so you can follow.
If I am an ILB in a 3-4, I have KEYS. Bruschi for example, keys the FB, and Gs. He has said this numerous times.
The reason you have a key is so that you can read and assess the play. If you are simply stepping up to the line of scrimmage in the area the G is aligned, you don't need keys.
If you read the FB, and the G, and see the G blocking down on the NT, and FB leading the play toward either side of the T, you are not going to step up to the line of scrimmage, and set yourself up to be blocked by the G coming off the chip block. You are going to step up BEYOND the line of scrimmage (not run like your pants are on fire) but beat the block of the G by getting beyond where he is coming to. You are controlling both gaps by being in the same area of the field (east-west) but are controlling them behind the line, rather than at the line where you are now being blocked.
As I said, one of the principles of the 2 gap system is that every gap has TWO players with resposnibility for it. The risk of one player being taken out of the play is less in a 2gap system than a one-gap.
The point is not 'picking a side' and running with reckless abandon into the gap they are trying to block you into. The point is READING THE BLOCKING SCHEME and getting to the point of attack before the scheme develops.
Jr Seau isnt making plays in the backfield because he picks a gap and hopes. He is making plays in the backfield, because he diagnoses the play quickly, and beats the blocking scheme. If you are a LB and you read the play, you do not sit and wait for it to come to you, you go to the point of attack.
When the play is run directly at you, the blocking scheme eliminates anything but engaging and shedding the blocker. When the play starts away from you, as a 34 ILB your job is to step up into the cutback lane before pursuing. When the play is going outside of you on your side of the ball, your job is to dianose the blocking scheme, step up, and force the runner to take a wider berth of east-west and/or make the tackle in the backfield.

Playing LB effectively is not "you go to this spot and stand there, and hit anything that comes along" it is about reading plays and making plays. The responsibilities of an ILB on 10 differently designed running plays directed at different holes with different blocking schemes are 10 different sets of resposibilities.

"So I can follow"? Have you ever coached in a 2 Gap scheme? I have. I never said that an LB should "just stand there". Show me where I said that.

The ILB is assigned 2 gaps, ie run TO, I have B gap squeezing A gap. So he has to play the B gap but squeeze down tight on the A gap.

You are showing an inability to distinguish between Run to, Run away and called stunts.

"The point is READING THE BLOCKING SCHEME and getting to the point of attack before the scheme develops."

No, that is a one gap concept. The 2 gapper tries to either force the back inside to his help or string him to the sideline. Think of all the times you have seen the Pats DL or Lb's riding a Guard or FB to the sideline until the back has nowhere to go.

"Jr Seau isnt making plays in the backfield because he picks a gap and hopes. He is making plays in the backfield, because he diagnoses the play quickly, and beats the blocking scheme."

I explained earlier. Seau makes many plays while being sent. He also makes plays on Flow away, taking a window.

Explain to me, 'coach'...how does a Guard block a NT and the "chip" up to the FSLB? You would have to be the worst ILB in the world to get blocked playside by a Guard coming off a double of the nose.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

"So I can follow"? Have you ever coached in a 2 Gap scheme? I have. I never said that an LB should "just stand there". Show me where I said that.

The ILB is assigned 2 gaps, ie run TO, I have B gap squeezing A gap. So he has to play the B gap but squeeze down tight on the A gap.

You are showing an inability to distinguish between Run to, Run away and called stunts.

"The point is READING THE BLOCKING SCHEME and getting to the point of attack before the scheme develops."

No, that is a one gap concept. The 2 gapper tries to either force the back inside to his help or string him to the sideline. Think of all the times you have seen the Pats DL or Lb's riding a Guard or FB to the sideline until the back has nowhere to go.

"Jr Seau isnt making plays in the backfield because he picks a gap and hopes. He is making plays in the backfield, because he diagnoses the play quickly, and beats the blocking scheme."

I explained earlier. Seau makes many plays while being sent. He also makes plays on Flow away, taking a window.

Explain to me, 'coach'...how does a Guard block a NT and the "chip" up to the FSLB? You would have to be the worst ILB in the world to get blocked playside by a Guard coming off a double of the nose.

I have both played it and coached it.
You are simply out of your mind if you think Jr Seau's job is to read a run outside of the tackle, and 'ride the G to the sideline'. Yes he will DO that WHEN HE IS BLOCKED. His job is to read that play, read the blocking scheme, and BEAT THE BLOCK. When he reads the play going beyond the T, his job is to play the outside gap of the G, get penetration, and either make the play or force the RB to run east-west. You seem to think he wants to bring the G with him.


"The point is READING THE BLOCKING SCHEME and getting to the point of attack before the scheme develops."

No, that is a one gap concept. The 2 gapper tries to either force the back inside to his help or string him to the sideline. Think of all the times you have seen the Pats DL or Lb's riding a Guard or FB to the sideline until the back has nowhere to go.

>>>You cannot tell me that you coach LBs to 'string plays out', or 'force the play to his help'. If you do, you aren't very successful.
As I said before a BLOCKED LB will ride his blocker to the sideline, but that is NOT his job. His job is to either shed the blocker, or beat the block.

Your comments almost say that the LB is supposed to see the blocking scheme, know where the play is going and wait there for someone to block him rather than make a play.
If this is true, why is Tedy Bruschi reading the G and FB? So he can figure out where to run to so he can get blocked? No, he is reading it so he diagnoses the play, and beats the blocking scheme.

As far as your last comment, the ILB who gets blocked by the G who chips off the C is the guy who does exactly what you are saying he should. When you read the G block down you STEP UP (are familiar with that LB play term, because you don't seem to be with the idea of reading a play) and beat the block. In your world it would seem you have 2 choices, move to the line of scrimmage and stand there waiting for your blocker or blitz. Stepping up and beating the block is not blitzing. You do not lose gap integrity.
You lose gap intergrity when you 'pick a side' at the point of attack to avoid the blocker, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said.

First you told me to 'go watch what I think I am seeing' now you are telling me that a LBs job is to either force the back inside to his help or string him to the sideline. Whio do you expect to make the play, if your LBs are just trying to get blocked and hope someone else comes along.
Your arrogance is being exceeded by your ignorance.

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

I have both played it and coached it.
You are simply out of your mind if you think Jr Seau's job is to read a run outside of the tackle, and 'ride the G to the sideline'. Yes he will DO that WHEN HE IS BLOCKED. His job is to read that play, read the blocking scheme, and BEAT THE BLOCK. When he reads the play going beyond the T, his job is to play the outside gap of the G, get penetration, and either make the play or force the RB to run east-west. You seem to think he wants to bring the G with him.


"The point is READING THE BLOCKING SCHEME and getting to the point of attack before the scheme develops."

No, that is a one gap concept. The 2 gapper tries to either force the back inside to his help or string him to the sideline. Think of all the times you have seen the Pats DL or Lb's riding a Guard or FB to the sideline until the back has nowhere to go.

>>>You cannot tell me that you coach LBs to 'string plays out', or 'force the play to his help'. If you do, you aren't very successful.
As I said before a BLOCKED LB will ride his blocker to the sideline, but that is NOT his job. His job is to either shed the blocker, or beat the block.

Your comments almost say that the LB is supposed to see the blocking scheme, know where the play is going and wait there for someone to block him rather than make a play.
If this is true, why is Tedy Bruschi reading the G and FB? So he can figure out where to run to so he can get blocked? No, he is reading it so he diagnoses the play, and beats the blocking scheme.

As far as your last comment, the ILB who gets blocked by the G who chips off the C is the guy who does exactly what you are saying he should. When you read the G block down you STEP UP (are familiar with that LB play term, because you don't seem to be with the idea of reading a play) and beat the block. In your world it would seem you have 2 choices, move to the line of scrimmage and stand there waiting for your blocker or blitz. Stepping up and beating the block is not blitzing. You do not lose gap integrity.
You lose gap intergrity when you 'pick a side' at the point of attack to avoid the blocker, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have said.

First you told me to 'go watch what I think I am seeing' now you are telling me that a LBs job is to either force the back inside to his help or string him to the sideline. Whio do you expect to make the play, if your LBs are just trying to get blocked and hope someone else comes along.
Your arrogance is being exceeded by your ignorance.

I NEVER said to "get blocked". But to make a point, everybody gets blocked. In your mind, apprently, LB's just run around unblocked all the time. The point is to not stay blocked.

You are simply putting words in my mouth. You don't run by Guards, you run THROUGH them. You control your gap and are able to rip across or squeeze the gap.

a "run outside of the tackle" is a fast flow outside run and is completely different from the Iso lead type play you were describing. However, Seau is still not coached to run his ass to the sideline. Inside out, sound familiar? If he's even, he's leavin'?

You keep saying I would have an LB "sit and wait"??NEVER. Your read steps are UP. But you don't play it like a youth defense and run UPFIELD LIKE AN A**HOLE so you leave massive seams in the defense.

And don't try to cover your ignorance by describing a ridiculous blocking scheme and then claiming it's a shot at me. You claimed a playside Guard could double a Nose and work his way to the FSLB.

That's just gross.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

I NEVER said to "get blocked". But to make a point, everybody gets blocked. In your mind, apprently, LB's just run around unblocked all the time. The point is to not stay blocked.

You are simply putting words in my mouth. You don't run by Guards, you run THROUGH them. You control your gap and are able to rip across or squeeze the gap.

a "run outside of the tackle" is a fast flow outside run and is completely different from the Iso lead type play you were describing. However, Seau is still not coached to run his ass to the sideline. Inside out, sound familiar? If he's even, he's leavin'?

You keep saying I would have an LB "sit and wait"??NEVER. Your read steps are UP. But you don't play it like a youth defense and run UPFIELD LIKE AN A**HOLE so you leave massive seams in the defense.

And don't try to cover your ignorance by describing a ridiculous blocking scheme and then claiming it's a shot at me. You claimed a playside Guard could double a Nose and work his way to the FSLB.

That's just gross.

No. I said IF that is the blocking scheme, and that IS A BLOCKING SCHEME, where the FB would lead into that hole, AND the LB didnt step up beyond the line of scrimmage, he will be blocked. It was a response to WHY YOU DONT SIT IN THE HOLE.

As far as everything else you are saying you aren't desribing anything that I have talked about.

Let me explain again.

An ILBs PRIMARY role (in 2gap) is taking on Gs. When they are the POINT OF ATTACK there is really no other option.
HOWEVER, a LB such as Seau, or Thomas has OTHER EXCELLENT SKILLS which include dissecting a play. WHEN NOT THE POINT OF ATTACK, that LBs job is to control his area of the field. There are more ways to do that than engaging a blocker. If the play is going outside of you, and you read that play and can beat the G to point of contact, that is what you do. BEATING the block by getting to the area of the field you read that you need to is better than running head on into the G.
Also, its ludicrous to say that our system is 100% 2 gap with all of the front 7 playing 2 gap every play. My original point, if you read it was that Thomas is not the ideal 2 gap LB, but possesses OTHER SKILLS, and BB will find a way to use them.

A LB who can read the play, again not when he is the point of attack, will overcome defiencies is shedding blockers by beating their blocks.

Some of your other comments are just bizzare.

I was the one saying I am NOT talking about an uncontrolled flying into the backfield, yet now you sum up my points by arguing that is a bad thing. Of course it is, and it has nothing ot do with what I am saying.

I exactingly described that beating the block, ie Seau, is still maintaining 2gap integrity. You refute that by saying he isn't "running his ass to the sidelines, and blitzing like an ahole:".
Duh. You are agreeing with me I suppose, because neither of those things come close to what I have said.
I will say it one more time.
WHEN NOT THE POINT OF ATTACK, if an ILB diagnoses the play, and BEATS the blocker to the spot on the field where he is taking his angle to make the block, that is better than stepping up into the blocker. That is what Seau does, and Bruschi does. They can do it because of SKILLS they possess. Yes you draw it up as 'the G comes out to block you, and you control the gap, and shed him" but you coach it as reading the play and getting to the spot on the field you need to, and ideally you will read it well, beat the blocker to the spot, and and make the play in the backfield, or at least give him a poor angle to block you.

"LBs run through Gs" is crap. What 250 LB ILB runs THROUGH a 300 lb G? When the play is run at you, you take on the G and try to shed him. When the play is not run at you, you step up into your area of responsibility, and beat the blocker to the spot if you can.
I think the part you are failing ot understand is that 2gap defense becomes one gap defense as the play develops.
Once you read the play, see where it is going, feel the blocker driving you in one direction, if you do not fight to the one gap where the ball is and you are being blocked away from, you end up on your back.
What I am talking about here is a LB reading the play and becoming a one gap player before he is engaged rather than after. Surely you aren't saying there is a neagtive in that.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

I want to expand on the last part of that.

In a 2gap defense, at some point during the play you must play one gap. For example, if I am an ILB, and the G comes out to block me, and is attempting to block me inside, while the RB crosses my face, I am now FIGHTING to that outside gap. I am not playing 2gap the inside gap is now pointless.
If my ILB is poor at diagnosing that play and step STRAIGHT UP into the blocker, he will be blocked every single time.
If my ILB is quicker reading that play and gets outside leverage, he has a better chance.
If my ILB reads the play and beat the G the G/T gap (and of course you wont be untouched, but in a position of strength) he is making the play.
If my ILB MISreads the play, does just what I described and the RB cuts to the C/G gap, unless my NT plays it well, Im in trouble.

What I am saying is that Monte Beisel in our system would be in the wrong spot way to often, because his reads are not fantastic. Jr Seau would make a lot more plays, and be out of position a lot less, because he is reading the play quickly and correctly, and Zach Thomas would do the same.

If I have Joe Schmuck ILB, he doesn't try to beat a blocker to the point of attack (I mean the block not the run here). If I have Zach Thomas, I encourage him to trust his instincts.

 

[onegr8om]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

Not trying to be an Ass or anything, but could you two argue privately? We're here for Pats talk, not to read your arguments...Thanks!

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

I can't even address all the inaccuracies in your posts. You consistently misquote and twist what I am saying.

I have never, EVER said a LB should "sit in the hole". They attack the gap, control the blocker and shed or keep gap integrity until they make the tackle, force the back to the pursuit or drive him to the sidelines.

I never said anyting about "blitzing upfield", I said running upfield. That is when you read a play and fly up only to get too far upfield and create seams.

As a LB, you read your keys. If you are reading the Guard and you get high hat, you make your drop. If he blocks down, you fit off him and look for Guard pull or FB lead. If he comes at you, you put him right the f*ck back where he came from.

250 lbs LB's taking on 300 lbs Guards? YUP. Every play. That's why Ted Johnson used to talk about "banging on Guards". It's part of the job of an ILB in the BB 3-4.

 

[TripleOption]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

Not trying to be an Ass or anything, but could you two argue privately? We're here for Pats talk, not to read your arguments...Thanks!

Sorry to interrupt the 400 pages of Spygate with some actual football talk. I'll try not to interrupt anymore.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

If there's one position for us not to buy into a concussion problem, it's ILB.

 

[onegr8om]

Re: Zach Thomas to be released [merged]

lol triple option. C'mon, i'm just trying to enjoy reading great posts from fellow Pats fans about the possiblities of Zach Thomas. The argument just takes away from that. Didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. This is that last time i will post anything about this though, as now I am taking away from the Thomas talk...

 

[patsfan-1982]

Zack Thomas?

whats do yous guys think about the pats signing zack thomas i think he would be great if they would sign him

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Re: Zack Thomas ?

I disagree. He is too old and has a history of concussions.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Re: Zack Thomas ?

Ah yes! Another old LB. It's time to build through the draft. No more old free agents. The only "old" player I would consider is Jason Taylor.

 

[maverick4]

Re: Zack Thomas ?

I am for it, he might be a perfect fit in a situational role.
Remember how old Roman Phifer was when he signed, and he was with us for a few years.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Re: Zack Thomas ?

wow, is it that time of year again? time for all the "so and so was released, should the pats sign him" threads.
zack thomas? leadership, and experience,,,maybe for the vet min. but id rather not.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Re: Zack Thomas ?

If he comes cheap, why not sign him for 1 year? We have zero depth at ILB.