Would you take Hutchinson instead of Neal?

[patsox23]

Agree with most here - money being no object (and, unfortunately, it is) you take Hutchinson over Neal 11 times out of 10.

 

[patpatriot]

OK let's see...

Jan 5 2006 - C LeCharles Bentley responded Tuesday to comments from Saints receiver Joe Horn that suggested that the offensive line may have been the source of the team's troubles this season.

Bentley defended former coach Jim Haslett and quarterback Aaron Brooks, who was benched for the final three games of the season after making 82 consecutive starts for the franchise, and took a shot of his own.

"I believe it's the people that everyone thinks are the team leaders that are the true cancers of this organization," Bentley said. "Some of these people, who are always running their mouths in front of the cameras and have some asinine quote, really need to shut up and play football and do their jobs so everybody else can do their jobs effectively."

What if the Pats went through some troubles (for example, how Brady came out and shut up Schottenheimer after the Chargers game nightmare), and Bentley said that?

And Bentley is only marginally better than Koppen. You're really undervaluing the Kop-master. He's brought nothing but solid play since filling in after Compton went down in 2003. The injury was in the grand scheme of things minor and shouldn't at all affect him next season.

Not to mention Koppen is at least $4 mil. cheaper, at least for this year.

OK a wussy WR called out his OL who actually get their uni's dirty. This OL defended his fired coach and embattled QB from criticism by said wussy WR. I think that shows *character* BTW

He makes a comment that sounds like a prescription worthy of the Patriots! Shut your pie-hole and do your job. And the problem with this is?

What if the Pats didn't go thru said trouble? Anyway, this sentence doesn't make sense either grammatically or logically. What is your point actually? No one is supposed to say anything to the press? Is that it?

LCB is marginally better? I think not my friend. Miles better would be more accurate. LCB is pro bowl level. Koppen is solid? Fair enough...but what we are talking here is going beyond avaerage to a truly good-great OL.

And when all is said and done. LCB will be a 4mill player and Koppen will be a 2.5 player. I believe that LCB is 1.5 mill better. You have to pay for quality. Mediocre comes cheap.

 

[patpatriot]

That's what I' saying!

and he's going to be cheaper too. Plus he comes from a truly crap team so the Pats could get a significant discount due to LCB's fire and detrmination to win. Think Brian Cox as an OL.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9219698/2
...

Wild card: None
Offensive line

The importance of a solid offensive line was underscored by Super Bowl XL. The Steelers' offensive line was exceeded only by Seattle's. Now you might have a crack at Seahawks left guard Steve Hutchinson, a two-time All-Pro choice and three-year Pro Bowl selection. I don't see how the Seahawks make him available, either, but it's at least possible.

The more intriguing guy is Saints center LeCharles Bentley. He's young. He's versatile. And he's outstanding. "Given the choice of the two," said an AFC general manager, "I'd take Bentley." He might have that chance.

 

[nickw308810]

Rather than Hutchinson, how about LeCharles Bently? He is every bit as good as a Guard as Hutch and is a crackerjack center too! He would be an upgrade over Koppen and Neal and that is what this line needs..an UPGRADE. I know having Light at LT and moving the rook to RT is an upgrade but let's finish the job! Remember that Koppen is a FA next year and has made noises about getting back to his hometown (Philly). I want to see an OL that can PUSH!

I don't think Bentley will be willing to move to OG. I saw something on ESPN not too long ago about how he is the only black C enter left in the NFL and he was pretty proud of that.

 

[pats1]

OK let's see...

OK a wussy WR called out his OL who actually get their uni's dirty. This OL defended his fired coach and embattled QB from criticism by said wussy WR. I think that shows *character* BTW

He makes a comment that sounds like a prescription worthy of the Patriots! Shut your pie-hole and do your job. And the problem with this is?

Does it show character? I suppose. Does it help to go out and publicly throw teammates under the bus, even if they did the same to you? No.

What if the Pats didn't go thru said trouble? Anyway, this sentence doesn't make sense either grammatically or logically. What is your point actually? No one is supposed to say anything to the press? Is that it?

Can you read?

What if the Pats went through some troubles (for example, how Brady came out and shut up Schottenheimer after the Chargers game nightmare), and Bentley said that?

How doesn't that make sense? You mistquoted me when it was simple to just copy and paste.

I'm saying, what if Bentley was on this team in October. The Pats get whooped by the Chargers. Brady says what he said to Marty. Then, Bentley comes out and tells the press Brady should shut the hell up.

Oh yeah, that's certainly beneficial.

LCB is marginally better? I think not my friend. Miles better would be more accurate. LCB is pro bowl level. Koppen is solid? Fair enough...but what we are talking here is going beyond avaerage to a truly good-great OL.

Are you completely forgetting Koppen was on the I.R. the second half of the season and the playoffs, with Russ Hochstein starting in his place?

Koppen is undoubtedly an above-average center. I don't know who you've been mistaking him for. You could put up a poll right here and the majority would agree with me.

Why in the world would the Pats just make Koppen a backup for the hell of it? He's an above-average starting quality player. He's started at C for the Pats the last 2 1/2 seasons, part of an offensive line that was great in 2004 and damn good in 2003 despite injuries.

So you're just going to throw him on the bench or move him to guard after 3 seasons of starting after being drafted. That makes plenty of sense!

He's not miles better. Koppen will be in the Pro Bowl once Mawae & co. call it quits.

Why just let Koppen go? He was the pillar in the center of the Pats' line, holding it together until the injury. He was the 10x cheaper and younger replacement, and is currently nearing Woody's status.

And when all is said and done. LCB will be a 4mill player and Koppen will be a 2.5 player. I believe that LCB is 1.5 mill better. You have to pay for quality. Mediocre comes cheap.

Koppen is by no way, shape, or form mediocre. Koppen is quality. Bentley is more quality, but is not worth the steep price hike that his Pro Bowl status will warrant.

 

[pats1]

and he's going to be cheaper too. Plus he comes from a truly crap team so the Pats could get a significant discount due to LCB's fire and detrmination to win. Think Brian Cox as an OL.

What?!?! He's a Pro Bowler on a crappy team, so of course he'll be cheaper.

Yeah, sure.

They'll get a discount because of his determination to win? That makes absolutely no sense. Who would a team pay more for? A player that wants to win or a player that doesn't want to win?

Give me a break.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9219698/2
...

Wild card: None
Offensive line

The importance of a solid offensive line was underscored by Super Bowl XL. The Steelers' offensive line was exceeded only by Seattle's. Now you might have a crack at Seahawks left guard Steve Hutchinson, a two-time All-Pro choice and three-year Pro Bowl selection. I don't see how the Seahawks make him available, either, but it's at least possible.

The more intriguing guy is Saints center LeCharles Bentley. He's young. He's versatile. And he's outstanding. "Given the choice of the two," said an AFC general manager, "I'd take Bentley." He might have that chance.

Yes. Thank you. We know he's a great center.

You want the Patriots O-line to be better than last year?

Guess what? It already is! Light went down. Koppen went down. That's like taking the top two linemen down on any other team. Devastating, usually. Kaczur and Mankins were rookies in the NFL = one tough life. Gorin and Ashworth had nagging injuries.

Dillon missed a handful of games. Faulk missed 8. Pass and Evans missed a few. Combine the injuries to injuries to the backs and line, and the chances of you're offensive line suceeding drastically fall.

But look at 2006 already. Light will be back. Mankins will continue to grow at guard. Koppen will be back at center and keep working off his improvement in 2004. The right side of the line will be filled by Kaczur and the #5 man, who'll likely be cheaper to allow for spreading of the little cash the Pats have across the team.

Which brings me to my next point. The Pats are already over the cap by $2.9 mil. Signing Bentley is a pipe dream.

 

[patpatriot]

Does it show character? I suppose. Does it help to go out and publicly throw teammates under the bus, even if they did the same to you? No.



Can you read?

>After reading your post, I'm beginning to wonder.

What if the Pats went through some troubles (for example, how Brady came out and shut up Schottenheimer after the Chargers game nightmare), and Bentley said that?

How doesn't that make sense? You mistquoted me when it was simple to just copy and paste.

I'm saying, what if Bentley was on this team in October. The Pats get whooped by the Chargers. Brady says what he said to Marty. Then, Bentley comes out and tells the press Brady should shut the hell up.

Oh yeah, that's certainly beneficial.

>have you ever heard of the term "strawman"? If not I'll be glad to explain what it means. If you do know then..nuff said.



Are you completely forgetting Koppen was on the I.R. the second half of the season and the playoffs, with Russ Hochstein starting in his place?

>This is germane why? As in if he wan't injured everthing would have been OK. Cory D would have averaged 100 yards a game and my point would be moot? Maybe so, but what is the best way to prevent the same thing from happening next year? I think that putting LCB at center, putting Koppen at guard and letting Neal walk provides both an upgrade and better injury protection. They both can play guard and center.


Koppen is undoubtedly an above-average center. I don't know who you've been mistaking him for. You could put up a poll right here and the majority would agree with me.

>Well yeah, I'm doubting it. I provided eveidence that at least one football exec thinks LCB is better than a multi-all pro Guard (Hutchinson). Your evidence is what?

Why in the world would the Pats just make Koppen a backup for the hell of it? He's an above-average starting quality player. He's started at C for the Pats the last 2 1/2 seasons, part of an offensive line that was great in 2004 and damn good in 2003 despite injuries.

>Read above. Who said a backup? I say sub him for Neal who has even less recognized ability and less position flexibility (remember him at T in the Pitt game? I though so.)

So you're just going to throw him on the bench or move him to guard after 3 seasons of starting after being drafted. That makes plenty of sense!

>Yes move him..

He's not miles better. Koppen will be in the Pro Bowl once Mawae & co. call it quits.

> Evidence for your opinion?

Why just let Koppen go? He was the pillar in the center of the Pats' line, holding it together until the injury.

>Who said let him go? Not me. I say let him beat out LCB if he's so great. If not, let him take Neil's place. As far as being the pillar etc...That's going a bid overboard I think. He's certainly not the best player on that OL.

He was the 10x cheaper and younger replacement, and is currently nearing Woody's status.

> Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Woody was an all-pro.

Koppen is by no way, shape, or form mediocre.

> Finally you've got me. I may have overstated things here a bit to make my point. I would agree that Koppen is an above average starting NFL center. Slightly above average that is.

Koppen is quality. Bentley is more quality, but is not worth the steep price hike that his Pro Bowl status will warrant.

I happen to think that even when we had all our players healthy, this was an average NFL OL. I think that adding LCB to the mix combined with Light LT Kazur at RT Mankins at LG and Koppen at RG is the way to go. Our RB situation is potentially shaky if CD is really fading. We need to be able to take whatever RB we have and be effective in the run game if we expect to get back where we belong.

Now granted LCB will cost bucks. We can get them (cut stark etc). Is this the best use of our FA money as opposed to signing a big time RB WR or CB? I think it is. Run the ball and stop the run. That is the traditional winning formula. We know we can stop the run. It doesn't look like we can run the ball anymore. How would you fix that?

 

[pats1]

What do you mean it doesn't look like we can run the ball anymore?

Just because all 4 of our RBs and 5 of our O-linemen were hurt last year means we won't be able to run the ball in 2006?

Why would we move Koppen in the middle of his development at center? That would be like moving Deion Branch to CB last year just to bring in another WR.

Even cutting Starks wouldn't give the Pats enough money. Since LCB won't make it past June 1st, Starks' cut would have to come before then, giving an additional $1.5 mil. cap hit for 2006, but the loss of his cap number would still only bring the Pats down to right about at the cap. That gives no money to sign LCB.

He's a young Pro Bowl center entering his prime. Damn, he'll definitely be cheap! The Browns could sure use him, and they've got $35 mil. more cap room than the Pats, who'd be easily outbid by most of the center-searching teams.

The bottom-line? Having a Light-Mankins-Bentley-Koppen (after a likely extension) and Kaczur line is far, far too expensive. It would leave very little money to be spread across the board where it's really needed - such is the Patriots' philosophy (don't go overboard at one position just to have it be dominant. Get a cheaper, less-proven 5th linemen (RG in this case) to fill the gap and still have your 4 draftees maturing and learning in the other 4 spots. Mruczkowski is a possibility.

The Pats are a team who historically haven't gone out to get the most expensive player just be great. Plain and simple.

Dan Koppen hasn't played guard in the NFL or at B.C. Neal has more flexibility. He was on the Pats as a tackle in 2001, and then floated over to the Eagles before coming back to the Pats as a guard.

O.K. I'll give in. Koppen does have flexibility. He played DE too in High School. Even saw time at RB. Played track and basketball.

http://www.nflplayers.com/players/player.aspx?id=34642

Pro Career

2003: Started the final 15 games of the season and all three postseason games at center … Was part of an offensive line that did not allow a sack in the playoffs … Part of an offensive line that started the same five players in each of the last 12 regular-season games, all Patriots victories. (Was also part of the Woody and Compton-less Pats OL that didn't give up one sack, even with Hochstein and Ashworth in there, to the Peppers-Jenkins-Buckner-Rucker DL in XXXVIII).

College Career

Koppen was a three-year starter at Boston College who was the unquestioned leader of the offense … A highly competitive player, he received winning grades for blocking consistency in every game he started. 2002 (Senior): All-American third-team selection by The NFL Draft Report … All-Big East Conference second-team choice … Finalist for the Rimington Award, given to the nation’s premier center … Registered 99 key blocks/knockdowns, helping the offense rank second in the conference in passing (231.5 ypg.) and third in total offense (390.3 ypg.) … Started every game at center. 2001 (Junior): All-Big East Conference second-team and All-Eastern College Athletic Conference first-team choice … Started every game at center, earning Rimington Award Watch List accolades … Made 88 key blocks/knockdowns, guiding the offense to a total of 4,361 yards (396.5 ypg.) as he provided leadership to a young offensive line that allowed only 15 quarterback sacks. 2000 (Sophomore): All-Big East Conference second-team selection … Took over starting duties at center, collecting 63 key blocks/knockdowns as the offense averaged 414.9 yards per game … Part of an offensive line that gave up only six quarterback sacks. 1999 (Redshirt): Performed in every game with the second unit at center. 1998 (Freshman): Redshirted as a freshman.

Personal Bio

Daniel Koppen was born the son of Kathleen and Michael Koppen on Sept. 12, 1979 in Dubuque, Iowa … Attended Whitehall (Pa.) High … Earned All-State, All-Area and All-East Penn Conference first-team honors as a senior offensive lineman/defensive end … Captured Prep Star All-American accolades as a senior … Big 33 selection in 1998 … Had 10 sacks and scored eight touchdowns, carrying the ball on occasion … Earned defensive MVP honors in the 1997 Kaylee Rotary Bowl … Also played in the 1998 McDonald’s Lehigh Valley all-star classic … All-Conference second-team selection as a junior … Served as team captain as a senior … Versatile athlete who was also a two-year track and basketball letterman … Majored in management at Boston College.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I understand from those of you who break down games (and do an excellent job, btw) that Gorin isn't the best pass blocker in the world.Moving Gorin inside is an interesting idea. Does that mean that you see him as a good run blocker?
You know, you're pretty intelligent and funny for an American. I have high hopes of getting you to spell correctly. One day, you may even be able to understand cricket. (Ducks and takes shelter behind very large object).
I'm teasing as you should know by now.

Gorin blocks as well as any of the Pats' O-line for running plays, he can pull and lead, he and Kaczur on the right would be just fine. My Grammar didn't school me at spelling! Is it painful to acquire? Corrections offered with minimal adjectives should be accepted with gracious thanks, should being the key word. We get crickets out here in the country, they entertain the cat to no end. What substance do you abuse make to crickets intelligible?

 

[patpatriot]

Aaarrrggghhh!

JR4

OK! You win! No LCB! I do notice though how you agree with AJ that we need to improve the OL. But when I say it ...I suck? What's up with that?

...and if Pitt cuts Hartings I want him instead of Koppen!

 

[Alk]

Replacing Neal with Hutchinson would be like replacing a John Deer riding lawnmower with a snow blade with a bulldozer.

 

[JR4]

JR4

OK! You win! No LCB! I do notice though how you agree with AJ that we need to improve the OL. But when I say it ...I suck? What's up with that?

...and if Pitt cuts Hartings I want him instead of Koppen!

patpatriot, where have I ever disagreed with anyone about the need to
Upgrade PATs Oline this offseason.

If I ever said anything to mislead you about this I apologize.
I am a very very strong supporter of the need to upgrade the Oline above
anything else the PATs should do this offseason.

I have believed this now for many weeks.
I have said before in a number of posts the biggest thing the PATs can do to
improve their Offense and Defense this offseason would be to upgrade to the Oline. I also believe the PATs are NOT far from having A Domininate Oline.
If this is your position I agree 100%+ and am in your camp.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Wrongo!

I disagree with the premise that the Patriots need to upgrade their O-line.

They have already upgraded their O-line. They drafted Mankins and Kayczur, and let them play.

Just because they are in the midst of the improvement and it hasn't blossomed in to full brilliance, you think they need to invest in it?

Sorry been there done that.

Why? They won three Super bowls with the guys that Mankins and Kayczur are forcing to sit...

There are other areas that need/will need improvement. LB, DB and RB and a very distant fourth, WR. Why? Because they have made the investment in WR it just hasn't fully blossomed yet.

 

[dryheat44]

I disagree with the premise that the Patriots need to upgrade their O-line.

They have already upgraded their O-line. They drafted Mankins and Kayczur, and let them play.

Just because they are in the midst of the improvement and it hasn't blossomed in to full brilliance, you think they need to invest in it?

Sorry been there done that.

Why? They won three Super bowls with the guys that Mankins and Kayczur are forcing to sit...

There are other areas that need/will need improvement. LB, DB and RB and a very distant fourth, WR. Why? Because they have made the investment in WR it just hasn't fully blossomed yet.

I understand your theory, but what is the WR investment they have made? They have exactly seven WRs under contract: Branch, Bethel Johnson, Mike McGrew, Bam Childress, John Stone, Rich Musinski, and Zuriel Smith. Total career catches = 252. 213 of those by Branch.

If you don't think upgrading that is a priority, then you're more confident in their abilities than I am.

Oh, and Mankins and Kaczur didn't force anybody to the bench. Andruzzi left FA and Light got hurt. Remember?

 

[mgteich]

Please list the investments in WR. Do you think that Bethel is whole answer?

I disagree with the premise that the Patriots need to upgrade their O-line.

They have already upgraded their O-line. They drafted Mankins and Kayczur, and let them play.

Just because they are in the midst of the improvement and it hasn't blossomed in to full brilliance, you think they need to invest in it?

Sorry been there done that.

Why? They won three Super bowls with the guys that Mankins and Kayczur are forcing to sit...

There are other areas that need/will need improvement. LB, DB and RB and a very distant fourth, WR. Why? Because they have made the investment in WR it just hasn't fully blossomed yet.

 

[Brownfan80]

I disagree with the premise that the Patriots need to upgrade their O-line.

They have already upgraded their O-line. They drafted Mankins and Kayczur, and let them play.

Just because they are in the midst of the improvement and it hasn't blossomed in to full brilliance, you think they need to invest in it?

Sorry been there done that.

Why? They won three Super bowls with the guys that Mankins and Kayczur are forcing to sit...

There are other areas that need/will need improvement. LB, DB and RB and a very distant fourth, WR. Why? Because they have made the investment in WR it just hasn't fully blossomed yet.

They've won 3 Superbowls with the guys that Mankins and Kaczur forced to sit? Are you serious?

Light and Koppen got injured, Andruzzi left via free agency, Woody left via free agency, Klemm left via free agency, Compton got injured and then more or less retired..

So many parts of the SB winning OLs are now gone, and with Neal a possible FA loss and the play of our RT revolving door always a concern I'd say that we're surely still in need of a few quality OL. Brady took a BEATING this year and that cannot continue to happen if we want to win any more Championships. I'd like to see them land a couple quality VETs and then draft one more quality up and comer.

 

[patpatriot]

Upgrade OL? YES!

JR4,

As far as the need to upgrade the OL we are in violent agreement. I just think you can cost justify LCB over Hutch because LCB can do more things and *might* be a little cheaper. I also think that either of them would have more impact and might be cheaper than trying to get a vet FA T who is an improvement over Ashworth Gorin or Kazur. I think there is just a couple of maybe possibles out there like Runyon and Backus. At the same time I realize that we may not have the budget to make any of these moves when we need to resign Seymour and Branch. I just don't want to give the money to Neal when we might be able to spend a little more and get a better player.

As far as other improvement priorities, the best way to improve the defence is to keep them off the field with a ball control offense. To do that we need an upgraded running game. The return of Light and Koppen and the maturity of Mankins and Kazur *may* do that. I just want to have my bets covered a little better than depending on those factors.

Also as far as improving the offense, I agree with whoever it is that keeps saying that having better tackles would free up Graham and Watson to catch more passes. So you see improving the OL is really the key.

 

[mgteich]

For the 53rd time (this year?), extending Seymour would lower his cap, probably significantly.

 

[patpatriot]

Interesting stat on our oline

From http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

NE OL passblocking rank 6th in NFL

NE OL runblocking rank 26 in NFL

I know injuries play some part in this but it seems to indicate that our interior O linemen could use an upgrade. There are some other more detailed stats at this site but I'm too math challenged to be able to interpret them.

I wish there was a way to get a ranking for QB hurries and knockdowns given up by our OL. That might give us a clearer pickture.

 

[texpat]

From http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

NE OL passblocking rank 6th in NFL

NE OL runblocking rank 26 in NFL

I know injuries play some part in this but it seems to indicate that our interior O linemen could use an upgrade. There are some other more detailed stats at this site but I'm too math challenged to be able to interpret them.

I wish there was a way to get a ranking for QB hurries and knockdowns given up by our OL. That might give us a clearer pickture.

Don't know if I'm interpreting correctly but 2 things stood out to me.

1) We ranked 3rd in power yards, but 31st in runs of 10+ yards. My assumption is we were providing holes at the first level, but didn't get blocking at the second level or downfield. This could be a combo of TE or WR not getting downfield to block or Dillon (being injured) not being able to sustain his quickness for long bursts. (From 2nd chart)

2) Everyone on this board is talking about replacing the RT (Ash/Gorin) with anyone being an upgrade, but RT is where we had greatest ALY (Adjusted line yards) at 4.53. (From 3rd chart) Of the 2, I like Ashworth better as pass blocker and versatility. ( I don't think we sign him for much more than minimum.)

Opinions?