Wilfork an Elite 3-4 Defensive Tackle. A Myth?

[BradyFTW!]

You could get a different great DE though. Not as good as Seymour, but you cover the position.

People are assuming you could draft any 4-3 tackle and have him turn into a great 3-4 NT. Why? There's no evidence of that.

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm saying that a good NT is harder to find than a good DE, but there are a lot more guys around the league that can do what Wilfork can than can do what Seymour can. There are more guys that get drafted every year that have Wilfork potential than Seymour potential. Therefore, Seymour would probably be harder to replace than Wilfork. Guys with Vince Wilfork's level of ability are rare, but Seymour's once-a-generation.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm saying that a good NT is harder to find than a good DE, but there are a lot more guys around the league that can do what Wilfork can than can do what Seymour can. There are more guys that get drafted every year that have Wilfork potential than Seymour potential. Therefore, Seymour would probably be harder to replace than Wilfork. Guys with Vince Wilfork's level of ability are rare, but Seymour's once-a-generation.

Actually, from a draftynik's perspective, I'd say each are equally hard to find. There are kids with similar builds, and some even have similar athleticism in shorts, but when you have one or more 300+ lb guys with bad attitudes executing subtle little hand to hand combat moves to gain leverage on you, and you're fending them off while watching where the ball is going... Those Seymours, Wilforks, and Warrens are damned hard to find.

 

[RayClay]

I'm not assuming that at all. I'm saying that a good NT is harder to find than a good DE, but there are a lot more guys around the league that can do what Wilfork can than can do what Seymour can. There are more guys that get drafted every year that have Wilfork potential than Seymour potential. Therefore, Seymour would probably be harder to replace than Wilfork. Guys with Vince Wilfork's level of ability are rare, but Seymour's once-a-generation.

Look, I love them both. I don't think there's a point comparing one to the other. Seymour is a hall of famer. Nevertheless NT is very hard to fill which is why retreads like Ted Washington and Traylor will always have jobs.

You only need look back to the period right before Washington. Steve Martin was a veteran. The whole defense collapsed because he stunk. They were going to use Rick Lyle or Jarvis Green before they lucked into Washington.

Young players almost always have no experience at NT, don't want to put the work in and just might not be good at it.

When you play a 3-4 you can't just gamble that you might have a good enough NT. If you're wrong, the whole defense does not work. You could have a top DE that's not as good as Seymour and still play defense.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Look, I love them both. I don't think there's a point comparing one to the other. Seymour is a hall of famer. Nevertheless NT is very hard to fill which is why retreads like Ted Washington and Traylor will always have jobs.

You only need look back to the period right before Washington. Steve Martin was a veteran. The whole defense collapsed because he stunk. They were going to use Rick Lyle or Jarvis Green before they lucked into Washington.

Young players almost always have no experience at NT, don't want to put the work in and just might not be good at it.

When you play a 3-4 you can't just gamble that you might have a good enough NT. If you're wrong, the whole defense does not work. You could have a top DE that's not as good as Seymour and still play defense.

First off, Ted Washington is far from a retread. The guy was an absolute animal, and even at 40 was a better NT than Wilfork is. As far as young players and whether or not they might be good at it, you can say the same thing about 3-4. How many colleges run a 2-gap system? And besides, that's why we drafted Brace this year- if Wilfork leaves, we'll have a guy with the physical tools already, who will have a year of coaching in the system.

And as I recall, when Seymour was out in 2007, our run defense got pretty bad pretty quickly. If we hadn't had a historically good offense, it would have been a lot more problematic.

 

[RayClay]

First off, Ted Washington is far from a retread. The guy was an absolute animal, and even at 40 was a better NT than Wilfork is. As far as young players and whether or not they might be good at it, you can say the same thing about 3-4. How many colleges run a 2-gap system? And besides, that's why we drafted Brace this year- if Wilfork leaves, we'll have a guy with the physical tools already, who will have a year of coaching in the system.

And as I recall, when Seymour was out in 2007, our run defense got pretty bad pretty quickly. If we hadn't had a historically good offense, it would have been a lot more problematic.

Your mind is totally closed. Argument is pointless.

I don't know how old you are, but you might try talking with some 40 year old 400 lb. people and some 20 year defensive lineman before you make your unequivocal statements about the freshness of 40year old 400 lb. NTs.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Pro Football Weekly's 2009 NFL Preview has Wilfork ranked #7 of the DT's. That does include DT's that are not NT's. So does that make him an "elite" NT? I don't know, but he is ranked high as a DT.

BTW Seymour is ranked 6th and Ty Warren ranked 10th as DE's. But if they were playing in a 4-3 they would be DT's most likely.

 

[Dragda]

I've used that link and also analysis from Joyner in recent months to show why I think Seymour is more valuable than Wilfork. Personally, I wasn't trying to knock Wilfork - into that 14th you have to factor in a) an aging Bruschi struggling to stack and shed b) a young Mayo learning to stack and shed. Though on film, it seems some analysts were noting Vince getting pushed back more last season than in prior years (injuries?).

On the flip side, teams were 2nd when running in Big Sey's direction despite injuries at OLB, so I think its a credit to Seymour.

Basically, I'd say Seymour is an elite player and Wilfork is a great player - and there's a big difference there. I don't want to knock Vince, I love him, so to sum it up: I think Seymour is hugely underrated on this board.

I haven't purchased a player's jersey since Grogan--and only after he retired--but I have purchased Seymour's Jersey. He's a great player. What more can we say about him? The absense of constant praise is not criticism.

Warren is pretty darn good, too. His health shouldn't be an issue this season so we'll appreciate him with renewed vigor again.

Personally, I am not all that impressed with Wilfork. I thought Traylor and Washington were both much better than he. He's really only exceptional at sniffing out screens. He doesn't generate pressure or clog the middle as well as he should. We could upgrade the position rather easily.

 

[RayClay]

I haven't purchased a player's jersey since Grogan--and only after he retired--but I have purchased Seymour's Jersey. He's a great player. What more can we say about him? The absense of constant praise is not criticism.

Warren is pretty darn good, too. His health shouldn't be an issue this season so we'll appreciate him with renewed vigor again.

Personally, I am not all that impressed with Wilfork. I thought Traylor and Washington were both much better than he. He's really only exceptional at sniffing out screens. He doesn't generate pressure or clog the middle as well as he should. We could upgrade the position rather easily.

Thought I read NT was the hardest position to fill on a 3-4. Guess it said easiest. My bad.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Your mind is totally closed. Argument is pointless.

I don't know how old you are, but you might try talking with some 40 year old 400 lb. people and some 20 year defensive lineman before you make your unequivocal statements about the freshness of 40year old 400 lb. NTs.

I didn't make any unequivocal statements about anybody, and I'll be the first to acknowledge that Washington is a freakish exception and an absurd oddity of a physical specimen. I only said that Ted Washington wasn't a retread- at 40, he performed at a higher level than Wilfork ever has for us, which is more of a testament to him than a criticism of Wilfork.

I like Wilfork a lot, think he's a hell of a player, and hope we re-sign him. His ability to collapse the pocket is pretty badass for a guy of his size, and if we downgrade to a Ron Brace-type guy, that element of Wilfork's skillset will be conspicuously absent. Wilfork-types are hard to find, no doubt, but if it comes down to a choice between Seymour and Wilfork, I'd rather see us keep Seymour.

 

[maverick4]

What's with the dismissals of Ted Washington? So what if the guy was 40 when we had him, that 2003 defense was nasty and Washington was a brick wall in the middle.

Those who keep saying Wilfork is a stud DT run-stuffer, what are you basing this off of? Your eyes and football experience, having closely watched him play? Or media reports about how good he is?

Here is Wilfork getting pancaked, one on one, for the Colts winning score running right where he fell down in the 06 AFCC:
YouTube - Wilfork gets pancaked

 

[slash83]

Wilfork isnt and probably will never be the run stuffer Ted was, probably nobody is or will be. Lets be real though thats all ted was. Wilfork can push the pocket, chase screens down and is tough vs the run. I think we need to look at the play of Bruschi and the fact that yes mayo was awesome his rookie year but he still was a rookie and not put all of the blame on vince. Replace Bruschi with a Patrick Willis or James Farrior and look what kind of difference youll see.

 

[RayClay]

I didn't make any unequivocal statements about anybody, and I'll be the first to acknowledge that Washington is a freakish exception and an absurd oddity of a physical specimen. I only said that Ted Washington wasn't a retread- at 40, he performed at a higher level than Wilfork ever has for us, which is more of a testament to him than a criticism of Wilfork.

I like Wilfork a lot, think he's a hell of a player, and hope we re-sign him. His ability to collapse the pocket is pretty badass for a guy of his size, and if we downgrade to a Ron Brace-type guy, that element of Wilfork's skillset will be conspicuously absent. Wilfork-types are hard to find, no doubt, but if it comes down to a choice between Seymour and Wilfork, I'd rather see us keep Seymour.

Washington is exceptional. He only played 10 regular season games for us and actually didn't play last tyear at 40 and only played 5 games with 6 tackles the year before.

There's no doubt he's as good as anyone who's played the position, from what i know, but his marketability is from the fact that there are so few capable NTs around. Most of them are old.

I can't think of an all pro level NT under 30 and Wilfork is. He's rated 3rd behind Jamal Williams and Shaun Rogers in this publication.

http://www.profootballcentral.com/2009/06/30/the-top-five-best-nose-tackles-in-the-nfl/

Ted Washington is unique. Wilfork is a different player, but not easily replaceable. First page of articles I googled says KC looking for NT and you can bet they'd pay big for Wilfork.

Every other article says it's the hardest position to fill in a 3-4.

 

[maverick4]

Wilfork isnt and probably will never be the run stuffer Ted was, probably nobody is or will be. Lets be real though thats all ted was. \

That's all, just an impenetrable force in the middle, nothing special.

I don't think there are too many 3-4 DT's who are even supposed to be prolific pass rushers. The main job is to take on 2 blockers and dominate them in the run game, like Jamal Williams or Casey Hampton do.

 

[slash83]

Washington is exceptional. He only played 10 regular season games for us and actually didn't play last tyear at 40 and only played 5 games with 6 tackles the year before.

There's no doubt he's as good as anyone who's played the position, from what i know, but his marketability is from the fact that there are so few capable NTs around. Most of them are old.

I can't think of an all pro level NT under 30 and Wilfork is. He's rated 3rd behind Jamal Williams and Shaun Rogers in this publication.

Ted Washington is unique. Wilfork is a different player, but not easily replaceable. First page of articles I googled says KC looking for NT and you can bet they'd pay big for Wilfork.

Every other article says it's the hardest position to fill in a 3-4.

NT in the 34 is easily the hardest position to fill. Just cause the team drafts a big body DT dont mean he can handle the demand of the position. Pats were lucky WIlfork fell to them at 24.

 

[Ring 6]

I need to add this to the statisitics, I think they're missing something.

Seymour had 8 sacks even though he was coming back from injury. Obviously he was being sent to rush more, because we had nothing from the LBs where the rush is supposed to come from.

Knowing Seymour would rush more, they overplayed to his side. When there was a run, Sey was already half way into the backfield, with an overplay behind him.

That's easily worth 1.2.

What? We play 2gap defense. Seymour isnt 'sent to rush'.

 

[slash83]

That's all, just an impenetrable force in the middle, nothing special.

I don't think there are too many 3-4 DT's who are even supposed to be prolific pass rushers. The main job is to take on 2 blockers and dominate them in the run game, like Jamal Williams or Casey Hampton do.

Im not saying there supposed to be prolific pass rushers, Wilfork does a damn good job VS the run, Id take him over Williams or Hampton, not only cause hes younger but hes just as good as the two. Mangold of the Jets praised Wilfork as the hardest DT to go against, so did former Dolphins C Satale or something like that, he put Vince ahead of all the NT's he faced, which included Jenkins, Williams, and Hampton I believe.

I no Wilfork didnt have his best year last season and there were a couple times I was like wtf, but the guy is an elite NT; as good as he is or any other nt is they all need help from the ilbs behind them in one way or another.

 

[RayClay]

What? We play 2gap defense. Seymour isnt 'sent to rush'.

I was being facetious. Did you see the damning set of statistics that proved Wilfork was no good? I was making up an artificial scenario based on Sey's 8 sacks to mock the applicability of one years worth of directional rushing statistics to judge 3-4 linemen.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Washington is exceptional. He only played 10 regular season games for us and actually didn't play last tyear at 40 and only played 5 games with 6 tackles the year before.

There's no doubt he's as good as anyone who's played the position, from what i know, but his marketability is from the fact that there are so few capable NTs around. Most of them are old.

I can't think of an all pro level NT under 30 and Wilfork is. He's rated 3rd behind Jamal Williams and Shaun Rogers in this publication.

Ted Washington is unique. Wilfork is a different player, but not easily replaceable. First page of articles I googled says KC looking for NT and you can bet they'd pay big for Wilfork.

Every other article says it's the hardest position to fill in a 3-4.

Haloti Ngata. It is the hardest position to fill, I'll agree, which largely counters the fact that Seymour is simply better. At the end of the day, though, it comes down to whether you want the good player at a harder position to fill, or the great player at a somewhat easier position to fill. I'll take the latter, but I understand the argument for the former. You make some good points.

 

[RayClay]

What's with the dismissals of Ted Washington? So what if the guy was 40 when we had him, that 2003 defense was nasty and Washington was a brick wall in the middle.

Those who keep saying Wilfork is a stud DT run-stuffer, what are you basing this off of? Your eyes and football experience, having closely watched him play? Or media reports about how good he is?

Here is Wilfork getting pancaked, one on one, for the Colts winning score running right where he fell down in the 06 AFCC:
YouTube - Wilfork gets pancaked

Nobody's dissing Washington and he was 40 last year and considerably younger when we had him.

This thread couldn't have more misinformation if we were all posting in different lamguages.

 

[slash83]

Haloti Ngata

Ya he is good, dont know if id put him above Vince though, but hey who am I Im just a Pats fan backin up my teams player so screw u all lol