Wilfork an Elite 3-4 Defensive Tackle. A Myth?

[RayClay]

Haloti Ngata. It is the hardest position to fill, I'll agree, which largely counters the fact that Seymour is simply better. At the end of the day, though, it comes down to whether you want the good player at a harder position to fill, or the great player at a somewhat easier position to fill. I'll take the latter, but I understand the argument for the former. You make some good points.

that's my point. If you mess up on NT in a 3-4, you might as well hang it up, because you will be run over. I love Seymour, how many times can I say it?

I love Ted Washington too.

Nevertheless, without a good NT, the defense doesn't work, period.

Have you all forgotten the Steve Martin era?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ya he is good, dont know if id put him above Vince though, but hey who am I Im just a Pats fan backin up my teams player so screw u all lol

Definitely, I'm not sure which one I'd rank above the other, but they're both really good, and Ngata's also under 30.

 

[slash83]

that's my point. If you mess up on NT in a 3-4, you might as well hang it up, because you will be run over. I love Seymour, how many times can I say it?

I love Ted Washington too.

Nevertheless, without a good NT, the defense doesn't work, period.

Have you all forgotten the Steve Martin era?

We should bring back Rick Lyle I believe his name was, he can play the NT position he was sick.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wilfork is better than Williams and Hampton. Williams is now 33 and showed clear signs of aging last season. It's possible that it was just some off times, but he'll only get worse while Wilfork should continue to improve for another couple of seasons.

The torch has been passed, and it's now Wilfork and Ngata at the top.

 

[RayClay]

Haloti Ngata. It is the hardest position to fill, I'll agree, which largely counters the fact that Seymour is simply better. At the end of the day, though, it comes down to whether you want the good player at a harder position to fill, or the great player at a somewhat easier position to fill. I'll take the latter, but I understand the argument for the former. You make some good points.

He would be the other one, that I'm aware of. Doesn't inspire much confidence about filling that position through the draft. Wilfork's rated higher (from what I've read), but Ngata's younger. No way Baltimore would trade him if we lost Wilfork, so It's a moot point.

 

[RayClay]

Wilfork is better than Williams and Hampton. Williams is now 33 and showed clear signs of aging last season. It's possible that it was just some off times, but he'll only get worse while Wilfork should continue to improve for another couple of seasons.

The torch has been passed, and it's now Wilfork and Ngata at the top.

I tend to agree. People can argue about placement, but when you're top 5 at a position usually filled by veterans, you've got upside at least.

What I mean is, the job is filled and it really sucks when you don't have the man for that crucial spot.

 

[RayClay]

We should bring back Rick Lyle I believe his name was, he can play the NT position he was sick.

But...but..., it's the technique, remember? Some combination of Lyle, Jarvis and Klecko were going to do it by virtue of their superior technique.

Or....we can find a 400 lb. monster.

 

[slash83]

But...but..., it's the technique, remember? Some combination of Lyle, Jarvis and Klecko were going to do it by virtue of their superior technique.

Or....we can find a 400 lb. monster.

For real, as great as Seymour is 34 de's are easier to replace than 34 NT's. Losing Wilfork could set back the D atleast a year or two maybe more, that position is just too hard to fill in...successfully.

 

[Deus Irae]

I tend to agree. People can argue about placement, but when you're top 5 at a position usually filled by veterans, you've got upside at least.

What I mean is, the job is filled and it really sucks when you don't have the man for that crucial spot.

It's going to be interesting this season. There are several teams going 3-4 with question marks at the NT spot, and that could really cause problems. A team like K.C. or Denver, for example, might be much improved defensively overall, but it's not going to show if the NT sucks hard enough.

 

[RayClay]

For real, as great as Seymour is 34 de's are easier to replace than 34 NT's. Losing Wilfork could set back the D atleast a year or two maybe more, that position is just too hard to fill in...successfully.

That's all I'm saying. Personally, I think we can sign them both, but I'm not the GM. Seymour got his big pay day, I wonder if he might not come in somewhat reasonable. warren could have held us up and didn't.

Until they give me the roster and the bag of money, I leave that to the FO anyway. It's not like the Brace drafting would be the first time they went after a body double in the draft, remember Marquise Hill? You can always use or deal a good backup NT anyway, so that was a value move.

 

[RayClay]

It's going to be interesting this season. There are several teams going 3-4 with question marks at the NT spot, and that could really cause problems. A team like K.C. or Denver, for example, might be much improved defensively overall, but it's not going to show if the NT sucks hard enough.

Yes, and that makes me very nervous. How hard do you think Pioli or Daniels will go after Wilfork if we don't sign him? Ouch.

 

[maverick4]

Yes, and that makes me very nervous. How hard do you think Pioli or Daniels will go after Wilfork if we don't sign him? Ouch.

RayClay, not that it isn't possibly true, but why are you so strong in your conviction that Wilfork is an elite DT? Is this based on stats, media reports, your own expertise/eyes from watching him, or because he was perceived as a 'steal' when we picked him?

 

[BradyManny]

I wonder what the 07 numbers are. My perception was that Wilfork was much more dominant in 07 than Seymour but that Seymour turned the tables in 08. There's a lot of reasons why that may be the case.

Teams found a way to attack Wilfork.
Seymour was healthier.
Situations on the field.
Personnel changes.

Etc, but it would still be interesting to see the numbers. If it is a question of teams finding a weakness on Wilfork I'm sure BB can identify the issue and make a change to VW's technique.

Seymour was coming back from injury that season, FWIW, but here's the #s in the Football Prospectus for 2007: For running plays, Ty Warren, Vince Wilfork and Richard Seymour have a stop % of 80%, 81% and 75% respectively. Overall stop %s were 82%, 80% & 75%, respectively.

Basically, the #s say all three of the DL were pretty much equal for 2007, despite Big Sey coming in mid-season off of an injury.

Seymour, of course, is the best player against the pass. And while we can only speculate how this team would fare without Wilfork, we know how the team has done against the run without Seymour, and that's poorly. I'd love to re-sign both, but Sey is a higher priority, IMO.

 

[maverick4]

Im not saying there supposed to be prolific pass rushers, Wilfork does a damn good job VS the run, Id take him over Williams or Hampton, not only cause hes younger but hes just as good as the two.

See, now I think we're having a bit homer bias. I think most people would trade Wilfork for Jamal Williams or Casey Hampton in a heartbeat. Those guys have anchored league leading run defenses for years. All stats running inside on these guys are formidable; the same can't be said for Wilfork.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, and that makes me very nervous. How hard do you think Pioli or Daniels will go after Wilfork if we don't sign him? Ouch.

Well, Cody will be in the draft, along with a couple of other young players, but that'll only help the teams with high picks. I was surprised when KC passed up on Raji for just this reason, but I also don't know that Raji was considered a sure thing by any BB disciples.

Any way you slice it, though, I expect that Wilfork will have plenty of suitors if he makes it to free agency.

 

[RayClay]

RayClay, not that it isn't possibly true, but why are you so strong in your conviction that Wilfork is an elite DT? Is this based on stats, media reports, your own expertise/eyes from watching him, or because he was perceived as a 'steal' when we picked him?

The only ranking I can find has him 3rd. Every NFL expert, story concerning him says he's moved into the elite. There are no stats at nose tackle, he has to tie up two or three people.

I see his amazing athleticism and watch him do his jib, which frankly I'm not one that watches the middle of the line all game so I go along with his coach, writers and pro bowl voters on that.

Hard to find a lot of news articles on NT play, so I took a shot and put my favorite pundit, with NFL experience Pat Kirwan, in a google with Wilfork.

1. The nose tackle

The expression that everything starts up front on defense is true, and a 3-4 scheme always starts with the nose tackle. Teams need a guy who is stout and commands a double team. The bigger, the better. Vince Wilfork in New England, Jamal Williams in San Diego and Casey Hampton in Pittsburgh are the models for this position

Packers not far off from making 3-4 defensive conversion work

Top five nose tackles

1. Jamal Williams - San Diego Chargers
2. Shaun Rogers - Cleveland Browns
3. Vince Wilfork - New England Patriots
4. Casey Hampton - Pittsburgh Steelers
5. Kris Jenkins - New York Jets

The Top Five: Best Nose Tackles in the NFL

How far do you want me to go? everything I've heard and read is that Wilfork, after a rocky start, has become an elite nose tackle.

What the hell......

This has NT and DTs "best run stuffer" he's seventh, or 3rd among NTs.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2008-07-05-top-five-defensive-tackles_N.htm

WEEI article...

The University of Miami product is everything the Patriots could have hoped for when they drafted him with the 21st pick in the 2004 Draft. At 6-foot-2, 325 pounds, he’s the prototypical nose tackle in the Patriots’ 3-4 scheme. In five seasons, he’s proven to be durable, playing in 77 of 80 possible regular season games. He fills all the essential needs of a Bill Belichick nose tackle. He plays the run exceptionally well. He stays in the proper gaps a high percentage of the time. He can provide pass rush when absolutely necessary. And he may be the best nose tackle in the league at sniffing out screen passes. If the Patriots were to lose Wilfork following this season, there is little chance they would find a defensive tackle who could immediately master the scheme as well as Wilfork has after five seasons.

http://thanksforplaying.weei.com/general/pats-can-kiss-wilfork-goodbye/

Yahoo article

Charles Robinson: So what's it like being the best nose tackle in the NFL these days?

Vince Wilfork: (Laughing) I wouldn't say that. I still have a long way to go. You know what? My teammates make my job a lot easier. I can truly say that. I don't consider myself the best nose tackle out there. Hopefully one day I will be.

Robinson: If you're not the best right now, who is?

Wilfork: Well, you've got three Pro Bowlers out there at nose tackle – Casey Hampton, Jamal Williams and Pat Williams. Until I become a Pro Bowler, I can't even be mentioned with those guys.

NFL 30 to Watch: Vince Wilfork, Nose Tackle, New England Patriots
Posted Aug 18, 2007 4:22PM By Ryan Wilson

But arguably team's most valuable player on the team's most valuable unit, is nose tackle Vince Wilfork. New England is primarily a 3-4 defense, and everything runs through the defensive line. If the three fat guys up front aren't doing their jobs, the whole thing falls apart. That's where Wilfork, the team's 2004 first-round pick, comes in.

And head coach Bill Belichick thinks so much of Wilfork that he calls him "the most complete guy that I have coached at that position." That's pretty lofty praise from the Unabomber.

Wilfork has had to make an adjustment from his University of Miami days, when he was a "penetrating, 4-3" d-lineman. In New England, it's all about gap control, which means Wilfork's job isn't to get to the quarterback, it's to take up space. Belichick calls him "an excellent two-gapper", which allows the linebackers behind him to get to the ball.

Bottom line: The Patriots have weapons at nearly every position, and are as deep as any team in the league, but as long as Wilfork is healthy, opponents will have to game plan around him. Which means that guys like Adalius Thomas and Rodney Harrison will be free to wreak havoc.

 

[BradyFTW!]

See, now I think we're having a bit homer bias. I think most people would trade Wilfork for Jamal Williams or Casey Hampton in a heartbeat. Those guys have anchored league leading run defenses for years. All stats running inside on these guys are formidable; the same can't be said for Wilfork.

I think that anyone who would trade Wilfork for Williams or Hampton would be clinically insane. Call me a homer if you want, but according to most people on this thread, I apparently undervalue Wilfork. Right now, Wilfork's about as good as either Hampton or Williams, and is entering his prime while they've already left theirs. The only NT that I think the Pats would trade Wilfork for straight-up would be Ngata.

 

[slash83]

I think that anyone who would trade Wilfork for Williams or Hampton would be clinically insane. Call me a homer if you want, but according to most people on this thread, I apparently undervalue Wilfork. Right now, Wilfork's about as good as either Hampton or Williams, and is entering his prime while they've already left theirs. The only NT that I think the Pats would trade Wilfork for straight-up would be Ngata.

Thanks for getting it, I think you'd have to be crazy if you would trade Wilfork for Hampton or Williams, Hampton back in the day yes, Williams na thanks.

 

[Scouse Patriot]

A myth because of some statistic...

I bet theres alot of 3-4 teams who'd kill to have Wilfork this season. Wether Vince is considered "elite" in the league really doesn't bother me. One things for sure, Wilfork is very, very valuable to the Patriots and the 3-4 system. I personally wouldn't swap him for any of the other big NT's in the game, Wilfork is good at what he does and still has more to come. That position is so damn hard to play, brutal infact and Wilfork plays it well and has fun doing so.

 

[RayClay]

Well, Cody will be in the draft, along with a couple of other young players, but that'll only help the teams with high picks. I was surprised when KC passed up on Raji for just this reason, but I also don't know that Raji was considered a sure thing by any BB disciples.

Any way you slice it, though, I expect that Wilfork will have plenty of suitors if he makes it to free agency.

The question to me is, do the 4-3 tackles projected as NTs make that switch successfully and are they happy with it? There was no guarantee Vince would, but since he has, his value is way higher than a "maybe".

Name another if there is, but I see only two premier NTs under 30 in the league. There just isn't much carryover from being a 4-3 lineman to shouldering the burden of the whole middle of the D and the only way to prove you can do it is learn and produce consistently for a number of years.