PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Why maximizing Brady's run is so important


Status
Not open for further replies.
True. I could have said 80% and kept all the HOF QBs on but I brought it down to 75% saying a few HOF QBs don't deserve the "Great" title. I think even if you knock it down to 70% the logic still holds up clearly. I see what you mean about chicken and the egg but my answer is the egg. Great QBs win titles generally. Most don't get recognized as great for doing it. If you win a title and aren't great generally history and fans and HOF voters see the difference.



I am not dismissing the possibility I am saying it is unlikely cause it is. It is unlikely he is even very good. If he turns out to be Rivers/McNabb/Ryan that is a great IMO but also not likely just by the odds. I think he can be pretty good though and I am confident he has a reasonable likelihood to be that. Still even if he is as good as Rivers or McNabb that is probably not good enough to win going by history statistically is my point.



Yes. But the simpler way to put it for the purposes of my point is the reason to hold on to him is cause he is a great QB and that is the hardest asset to find and the most important to have.



I am just going to quote the rest at once. I agree with a lot of your points but i look at it a different way. I see it as a risk assessment with values. Lets assume Brady only plays 2 more years at an elite level (on the low side for most but lets assume it). Lets assume also JAG goes on to be a good QB and top 10 staple but not elite (most fans would consider this a win and is more likely than him being a true elite ala Brady/Brees whatever.

Now lets solve.

Lets say elite QBs win on an average of 1 time every 10 years. That is pretty fair to say IMO cause assuming my 75% figure (37 SB wins by elite QBs) is fair this would mean (assuming a 15 year career for each elite QB and a assuming the 1 in 10 odds we have 37*10) 370/15 = 24.6 (call it 25). That in the SB era there have been 25 elite QBs. Sounds right to me about. I think this 1 in 10 estimate works. Also this assumes Brady is an average elite QB (he is not but lets assume it)

Lets assume every other QB that ever won is good (they aren't as some sucked but lets assume it). Lets assume also for every elite QB there are 3 good ones (a low ball probably but sure). 14 titles with 75 QBs 75x14 = 1050. 14/1050 or 1 in 75 chance a year for a good QB.

This means if JAG has a 15 year career giving him some of the best odds I can he has a 1 in 5 chance to win a ring. Brady has a 1 in 5 chance in 2 years.

So to make the odds equal of both winning the same number of championships we had to assume everything against Brady and give JAG every benefit of the doubt. However if Brady plays 3 or 4 years it is not even close odds wise unless JAG turns out to be elite.

The smart money says Brady is the best bet to maximize championships IMO.
I totally agree with keeping Brady as long as he wants to play and is still great. However, it is more than the QB that wins a Super Bowl. Is there an example of a bad team winning a Super Bowl because of a "great" QB? Maybe there is, but I think it is likely the team is great or is playing great at the right time. A lot has to go right to win the Super Bowl and the Patriots have had excellent teams and coaching for a long time. Sometimes (I think it is silly) but Montana actually gets knocked by some for always having such a great defense and weapons and such a great team. These Dynasties all have one thing beyond Super humna QBs, they were all excellent teams as a whole.
 
Excellent post.
No doubt Brady as he is right now would beat Garoppolo out in a straight up competition for the same job. If we could count on Brady being what he is right now for each of the next 5 years the decision would be a no-brainer.

It would also be a no-brainer if the Superbowl was the only practical objective. Other objectives we have taken for granted for a very long time include making the playoffs, winning playoff games, being an entertaining product to watch, and making the owner money. These are objectives that other franchises can't take for granted in quite the same way, and objectives that having a reliably good quarterback, even if he isn't a great one, can help a franchise achieve.

These are the objectives that require "After Brady, who?" to have a legitimate, well-considered answer. Just because we take them for granted now does not mean we'll always be able to. I'm sure the San Francisco 49ers thought it would go on forever too, especially after Steve Young took up the torch so well.

These are the assets that Bledsoe gave us and why his presence was actually a big advantage to the franchise even though he never managed to be more than a good quarterback himself. (I've said in the past that after the Brady era we will probably look at the Bledsoe era more charitably; this is what I'm talking about). This is why Bledsoe was a necessary stepping stone to the Brady era. It was the team we tried to build around our good-not-great quarterback that our unanticipated legend took to the Superbowl. Without the Bledsoe era, Brady may not have had the talent around him to even show us what he had.

It's also why, if we step off the all time great era into another respectably solid quarterback's era in the person of Garoppolo, we'll have done fairly well for ourselves. At the very least, Garoppolo would be good enough to keep the Krafts in business, keep Foxboro as a destination worth going to, and give the team a chance to keep rebuilding itself and competing for the top. And you never know. We may all be underestimating the hell out of Mr. Garoppolo. Not like it hasn't happened before.

Right now Brady is as good or better a bet to meet all of these objectives compared to Garoppolo as well as his vastly superior odds of winning a Superbowl. But if winning the Superbowl ever comes off the table sometime in this lifespan, due for example to severe decline on Brady's part, or due to a failure in team architecture or aging, injury or disappearance of key assets that prevent Brady from being able to put the team over the top (if the Patriots make some big mistakes in the draft and wind up spending a few years in Breesville for example), Garoppolo can be expected to have a growing, and eventually superior, chance of meeting these other objectives. He'll be developing and getting stronger, especially if he is given (and proves up to the task of) a starting role so that he can really start gaining big league experience, while at the same time the best Brady might have done is a heroic effort of self-maintenjance.

Again, it's a balancing act. The ascending line and the line we expect to be descending soon will eventually converge. The decision of what to do is based almost entirely on WHEN you expect those lines to meet.
This is a very good post. The thing I will say though is I believe their position should be to try and win as many Super Bowls as possible.. and to me Brady is how for now. But I would be for EITHER QB if one of the other is better to reach that goal.

I did find interesting what you wrote about how there is more to just winning the SUper Bowl though. I believe that to have been true even in this Brady era run. This team has been so "watchable", they seem like they are the champion even when they are not. I like being the thing that is "in the way" for other fan bases.. even if sometimes they do get through. I believe that is more than just the QB, it is everything combined.
 
By the way though I am confident in my math skills if anyone wants to check the numbers feel free. Also i looked at top QBs and did find IMO about 24-25 id term great played time in the super bowl era. So that part also holds up (though some only played in the super bowl era at the end of their careers).

If the numbers hold up it is telling. It says pretty much your odds go up 750% to win a championship by having a Brees/Rodgers over a Ryan/McNabb/Flacco

Even though they cost nearly the same amount on your roster. That is insane.
I'm too tired and old to really think it through.. But I think the math concept of it all is invalid.

1. It's not money ball.
2. You mention Brees/Rodgers verse Ryan/McNabb (not sure if you mentioned Flacco by mistake? since he has the same amount of rings as Brees and Rodgers.

Rodgers and Brees have one each. As we know, the ball bounces differently here and there and they don't have their one... (2007 anyone?) Same is true for Ryan getting one if things went different this year.. Or McNabb if a few things went different early in the 2000s. Heck Jake Delhomme could have had one very easily in 38.

I don't think it really has anything to do with math to be honest. Not at all. I think the HOF hypothesis you have the cause effect reversed actually. (I.e. Championships lead to HOF. Marino is like the perfect example of the really great one who managed to carry in hind site really crappy talent for many years)

How many HOF QBs have ZERO championships (both before SB era and after?)
 
I'm too tired and old to really think it through.. But I think the math concept of it all is invalid.

1. It's not money ball.
2. You mention Brees/Rodgers verse Ryan/McNabb (not sure if you mentioned Flacco by mistake? since he has the same amount of rings as Brees and Rodgers.

Rodgers and Brees have one each. As we know, the ball bounces differently here and there and they don't have their one... (2007 anyone?) Same is true for Ryan getting one if things went different this year.. Or McNabb if a few things went different early in the 2000s. Heck Jake Delhomme could have had one very easily in 38.

I don't think it really has anything to do with math to be honest. Not at all. I think the HOF hypothesis you have the cause effect reversed actually. (I.e. Championships lead to HOF. Marino is like the perfect example of the really great one who managed to carry in hind site really crappy talent for many years)

How many HOF QBs have ZERO championships (both before SB era and after?)

Wow thanks for all the responses. I will try to respond to most of your points.

I never said the QB is all the matters but i am saying great QB play ups your chances significantly and gives you a much better shot and i think i proved history indictates so.

Yes a few elite QBs never won a championship. Sometimes you just don't have things fall your way with getting good enough teams or the lucky breaks anyone needs but the fact a few elite QBs never won is to be expected with a large enough sample. The Vast majority of elite QBs won SBs (who played in the super bowl era) and some more than 1 time. It is about the odds improvement of winning of an elite QB over a non-elite QB (even if they are good) which is huge.

I did mention Flacco on purpose to prove I am not trying to bend numbers. There are some good QBs that won. They either got hot with good teams or had great runs. Things happen. I admit good QBs win sometimes. Flacco winning one super bowl is just part of the overall sample and i go on and on to show he is more the outlier than the norm for QBs of his caliber. Most QBs that are good but not elite never win and by a wide margin. Yes some win and others get close but close is not winning. This is about what actually happened and who actually won.

of the 51 SBs 40 were won by HOF or future HOF QBs. Even if you take off a few of the less worth HOF QB wins you still have the VAST majority won by elite QBs with a minority won by non-elite QBs some of which we can not even term average.

The whole point here is the substantial probability bump you have of winning a superbowl when X elite QB is on your team vs Y good (or less) QB. The numbers show it is a HUGE difference over the history of the league.

I feel 51 SBs is a decent (not perfect) sample size and I am very justified in pointing out the clear trend. I think history shows you are easily 5 times more likely to win a super bowl with an elite QB and probably 10 times more likely than you would be with just a good QB (like Rivers or Ryan or Flacco or Garcia). Yes you MIGHT win with one but the odds are not good. You are more likely to never win than win with such a quality of QB and by a big margin where are with an elite QB (Marino, Favre, Aikman, Brees) you may never win but it is not the norm. The norm is winning a super bowl and sometimes multiple ones if you happen to get consistently good teams too boot.
 
I don't think it really has anything to do with math to be honest. Not at all. I think the HOF hypothesis you have the cause effect reversed actually. (I.e. Championships lead to HOF. Marino is like the perfect example of the really great one who managed to carry in hind site really crappy talent for many years)

I think this is an important part of it:

Which of these QBs regarded as elite(listing regular season stats):

(A) 56.4% win rate, 96.3 rating
(B) 59.9% win rate, 93.6 rating
(C) 55.1% win rate, 94.7 rating
(D) 61.4% win rate, 97.1 rating
(E) 61.3% win rate, 89.1 rating
 
I think this is an important part of it:

Which of these QBs regarded as elite(listing regular season stats):

(A) 56.4% win rate, 96.3 rating
(B) 59.9% win rate, 93.6 rating
(C) 55.1% win rate, 94.7 rating
(D) 61.4% win rate, 97.1 rating
(E) 61.3% win rate, 89.1 rating

Not enough information. You can't just go by a state sheet. You need to watch someone play and know the era he was in. Anyone that picks greatest based only on stats is a fool.
 
Wow thanks for all the responses. I will try to respond to most of your points.

I never said the QB is all the matters but i am saying great QB play ups your chances significantly and gives you a much better shot and i think i proved history indictates so.

Yes a few elite QBs never won a championship. Sometimes you just don't have things fall your way with getting good enough teams or the lucky breaks anyone needs but the fact a few elite QBs never won is to be expected with a large enough sample. The Vast majority of elite QBs won SBs (who played in the super bowl era) and some more than 1 time. It is about the odds improvement of winning of an elite QB over a non-elite QB (even if they are good) which is huge.

I did mention Flacco on purpose to prove I am not trying to bend numbers. There are some good QBs that won. They either got hot with good teams or had great runs. Things happen. I admit good QBs win sometimes. Flacco winning one super bowl is just part of the overall sample and i go on and on to show he is more the outlier than the norm for QBs of his caliber. Most QBs that are good but not elite never win and by a wide margin. Yes some win and others get close but close is not winning. This is about what actually happened and who actually won.

of the 51 SBs 40 were won by HOF or future HOF QBs. Even if you take off a few of the less worth HOF QB wins you still have the VAST majority won by elite QBs with a minority won by non-elite QBs some of which we can not even term average.

The whole point here is the substantial probability bump you have of winning a superbowl when X elite QB is on your team vs Y good (or less) QB. The numbers show it is a HUGE difference over the history of the league.

I feel 51 SBs is a decent (not perfect) sample size and I am very justified in pointing out the clear trend. I think history shows you are easily 5 times more likely to win a super bowl with an elite QB and probably 10 times more likely than you would be with just a good QB (like Rivers or Ryan or Flacco or Garcia). Yes you MIGHT win with one but the odds are not good. You are more likely to never win than win with such a quality of QB and by a big margin where are with an elite QB (Marino, Favre, Aikman, Brees) you may never win but it is not the norm. The norm is winning a super bowl and sometimes multiple ones if you happen to get consistently good teams too boot.
what about the whole chicken and egg argument the other poster is making about the HOF cause and effect? Are more QBs in the HOF because they have rings? Or is it that the teams that win Super Bowls get there because they HOF QB? Which cause/effect scenario is more often the case (certainly both are true case by case, but which is more prevalent)

An example, Rivers and Eli Manning will be basically be somewhat comparible career wise. In fact Rivers will have had several far more successful regular season teams than Eli )a 14-2, at least one 13-3) ... they choked in some playoff games, made it to one AFCCG losing on the road to one of the greatest teams of all time.

So basically those two the difference is the 2 SB that Eli won. I think there a lot of QBs in the HOF probably there because they won SBs. not that they won Super Bowls BECAUSE they were HOF players.

FOR Instance: If Terry Bradshaw won zero Super Bowls would he have made the HOF?
 
All those quarterbacks played in the NFL last year
what about the whole chicken and egg argument the other poster is making about the HOF cause and effect? Are more QBs in the HOF because they have rings? Or is it that the teams that win Super Bowls get there because they HOF QB? Which cause/effect scenario is more often the case (certainly both are true case by case, but which is more prevalent)

An example, Rivers and Eli Manning will be basically be somewhat comparible career wise. In fact Rivers will have had several far more successful regular season teams than Eli )a 14-2, at least one 13-3) ... they choked in some playoff games, made it to one AFCCG losing on the road to one of the greatest teams of all time.

So basically those two the difference is the 2 SB that Eli won. I think there a lot of QBs in the HOF probably there because they won SBs. not that they won Super Bowls BECAUSE they were HOF players.

FOR Instance: If Terry Bradshaw won zero Super Bowls would he have made the HOF?

Matt Ryan: 9 years, 4x Pro Bowls, 1x All-Pro, 1x MVP, 59.8% win rate
Terry Bradshaw: 13 years(several missing significant time due to injury), 3x Pro Bowl, 1x All-Pro, 1x MVP, 67.7% win rate
Aaron Rodgers 9 years, 6x Pro Bowl, 2x All-Pro, 2x MVP, 66.6% win rate
Eli Manning 13 years, 4x Pro Bowl, 54.3% win rate

Hard to compare stats because Bradshaw obviously played in a different era. His win rate looks like Rodgers, but his accolades look more like Matt Ryan.

Are there any Super Bowl era QBs without rings other than Marino that made the HOF?

EDIT: Dan Fouts(0 appearances), Tarkenton (3 losses)
 
All those quarterbacks played in the NFL last year


Matt Ryan: 9 years, 4x Pro Bowls, 1x All-Pro, 1x MVP, 59.8% win rate
Terry Bradshaw: 13 years(several missing significant time due to injury), 3x Pro Bowl, 1x All-Pro, 1x MVP, 67.7% win rate
Aaron Rodgers 9 years, 6x Pro Bowl, 2x All-Pro, 2x MVP, 66.6% win rate
Eli Manning 13 years, 4x Pro Bowl, 54.3% win rate

Hard to compare stats because Bradshaw obviously played in a different era. His win rate looks like Rodgers, but his accolades look more like Matt Ryan.

Are there any Super Bowl era QBs without rings other than Marino that made the HOF?

EDIT: Dan Fouts(0 appearances), Tarkenton (3 losses)

Jim Kelly. Also about the chicken and the egg thing i addressed that. There are QBs with rings not in the HOF and there are QBs without rings it in.

Winning super bowls doesn't automatically make you a great QB but you can not total discount it as not important. The whole point is to win the super bowl. To not give that weight when meassuring a players greatness is just as wrong as giving it all the weight. There is a spot in the middle the reasonably person should be at.

The QB does not control the whole game but like a starting pitcher they control enough that looking at their wins and losses is fair though we must admit not the full picture either.

There are a couple QBs in the HOF that I think don't deserve to be there and in some cases rings weighed too much. However I don't think a worthy QB was ever left out cause he didn't get a ring.

That is why i said of the 40 HOF (or projected) HOF QBs that won i only counted 37 total wins of the 51 as elite. If you wanna say 35 (you can name who you think in the HOF should not be elite and take away their rings for the purpose of this argument) that is fine too. I think even with less rings the point still holds being an elite QB makes a big difference in your ability to win over only a good QB. Huge actually.
 
Last edited:
All those quarterbacks played in the NFL last year


Matt Ryan: 9 years, 4x Pro Bowls, 1x All-Pro, 1x MVP, 59.8% win rate
Terry Bradshaw: 13 years(several missing significant time due to injury), 3x Pro Bowl, 1x All-Pro, 1x MVP, 67.7% win rate
Aaron Rodgers 9 years, 6x Pro Bowl, 2x All-Pro, 2x MVP, 66.6% win rate
Eli Manning 13 years, 4x Pro Bowl, 54.3% win rate

Hard to compare stats because Bradshaw obviously played in a different era. His win rate looks like Rodgers, but his accolades look more like Matt Ryan.

Are there any Super Bowl era QBs without rings other than Marino that made the HOF?

EDIT: Dan Fouts(0 appearances), Tarkenton (3 losses)
hmm right. It sort of feels like you are making my point? Bradshaw gets wins because of great team. Statistically... Grogan was his equal roughly. Seems that SB wins makes HOFammer more so than other way around. The few you name are like exceptions to the rule.
 
hmm right. It sort of feels like you are making my point? Bradshaw gets wins because of great team. Statistically... Grogan was his equal roughly. Seems that SB wins makes HOFammer more so than other way around. The few you name are like exceptions to the rule.

I think there is a definite point that a lot of elite QBs are really good QBs with rings.

Then you have "Super elite" QBs like Brady.

If Brady doesn't mount a 25 point comeback how many people would say Ryan is elite? Looking at the numbers its hard to claim Brees is elite and Ryan isn't if both have 1 ring and 2 NCCFG appearances.

McNabb is another case. If Brady doesn't beat him he has 1 ring and 5 NCCFG appearances. And other than TO what help did he have from his receivers?
 
I think there is a definite point that a lot of elite QBs are really good QBs with rings.

Then you have "Super elite" QBs like Brady.

If Brady doesn't mount a 25 point comeback how many people would say Ryan is elite? Looking at the numbers its hard to claim Brees is elite and Ryan isn't if both have 1 ring and 2 NCCFG appearances.

For instance.. What if you reversed these two QBs wins, and Super Bowls. Look at their stats...

upload_2017-4-11_15-3-46.png
 
People are imo missing the point of this thread or at least the point i tried to make. This is not about Brady exactly. It is about the value of elite QBs, the fact Brady is one and the difference between elite and good as the argument of why we should try to maximize an elite QB while we have him.

The exact same argument holds for Brees and the Saints.

This makes an assumption that (a) Jimmy Garopollo will not be an elite quarterback, and (b) Tom Brady will remain an elite quarterback for a certain number of years.

There is no way that Belichick would keep Garopollo and move on from Brady should those two assumptions hold true over the next year, or perhaps two years. So, in other words, you don't even need to worry about it. The Patriots are the savviest team in professional sports at player evaluation. They are not going to jettison the greatest quarterback of all-time, if he is still playing close to an elite level, for a guy who is merely average to good. Why on earth would they do that? They could go out and find numerous ways to get an average to good quarterback either through the draft or free agency; I'm sure any QB would love to play for Belichick with a legitimate shot to win a championship. If Garopollo is a Joe Flacco/Alex Smith type of player, that won't cut it.

The only reason that Garopollo is being discussed is the unknown about Brady's long-term abilities and the unknown about Garopollo's likely production and ceiling. The Patriots might not trade Garopollo if they think he is a special player... they have consistently repeated their mission statement to put together a team every year that can compete for a championship. If Garopollo is not good enough - or not projected to be good enough - then they won't settle for him. I think that, since they haven't traded him yet, they haven't ruled out the possibility that he might be a special young player who they wouldn't be able to just replace, and that they'd prefer to take an extra year to evaluate that.
 
I think there is a definite point that a lot of elite QBs are really good QBs with rings.

Then you have "Super elite" QBs like Brady.

If Brady doesn't mount a 25 point comeback how many people would say Ryan is elite? Looking at the numbers its hard to claim Brees is elite and Ryan isn't if both have 1 ring and 2 NCCFG appearances.

McNabb is another case. If Brady doesn't beat him he has 1 ring and 5 NCCFG appearances. And other than TO what help did he have from his receivers?
the intial discussion, (at least I thought) was HOF QB causes Lombardis. Someone else, not me, said that you might have that reversed.. that Lombardies (or rather being part of a SB winning team) is actually causing a lot of HOF statuses. And I sort of thought it has to really be a mix but wondered which way the scale tilts. And I am thinking it is more the latter, that RINGS get people into the HOF, more often, than HOF caliber QBs, get you the SB. The whole conversation is about cause and effect. BOTH are definitely true. I am just wondering which is predomominant.

EDIT: I can't really think of an example of some amazing great QB carrying a less than worthy team to the SB title. Can you? It seems they are usually a great team that wins it (yes they usually have great QB) or else some times something fluky happens like the Giants (but it was not because Eli carried a **** team all the way.. just fluke)
 
I guess I'm going the "full Ivan" here but reading between the lines there's a lot of suppressed but leaking out sentiment for moving on from Brady to the yet unproven JAG in this thread, and elsewhere. Sad.
 
And my point is that Great QB getting more rings is skewed by a few Super Great QBs getting multiple rings. And that this is not happenstance. Brady has played in 11/15 conference championships. Brees 2/15. So why are we throwing Brady and Brees in the same bucket?

And I guess my other point is that how do we decide who is a Great QB. Is regular season Brees really that much better than Romo? Romo has a higher QB rating and win%. Matt Ryan has put up 4500 yards for 5 consecutive years. Why are they not counted as elite whereas Brees is.

Really if you look at post season success only P Manning, Roethlisberger, and Brady should really be regarded as elite. Which is pretty incredible considering they have all played against each other for 10+ years in the AFC. Brees and Rodgers have never faced each other in the playoffs; really they have never had to face an elite QB in their conference in the playoffs. Yet they have less playoff success than their AFC elite counterparts. Sad. How many rings would Roethlisberger, Brady, and Manning have if they didn't have to face each other in the AFC?:eek:


Peyton Manning is a career .500 postseason QB who didn't throw a TD in the playoffs during their 2015?SB run. He's as far from elite in the postseason as it gets. Roethlisberger is better than Manning but admitting Brady is your daddy isn't a good look, even though it is true.
 
Peyton Manning is a career .500 postseason QB who didn't throw a TD in the playoffs during their 2015?SB run. He's as far from elite in the postseason as it gets. Roethlisberger is better than Manning but admitting Brady is your daddy isn't a good look, even though it is true.

Didn't Manning throw 2 TD's against the Pats. Owen Daniels beating Collins?
 
I guess I'm going the "full Ivan" here but reading between the lines there's a lot of suppressed but leaking out sentiment for moving on from Brady to the yet unproven JAG in this thread, and elsewhere. Sad.
Pats should simply never move on from Brady if he continues to have seasons like his last 10 or so..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Wednesday Patriots Notebook 5/1: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Jerod Mayo’s Appearance on WEEI On Monday
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/30: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Drake Maye’s Interview on WEEI on Jones & Mego with Arcand
MORSE: Rookie Camp Invitees and Draft Notes
Patriots Get Extension Done with Barmore
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/29: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-28, Draft Notes On Every Draft Pick
MORSE: A Closer Look at the Patriots Undrafted Free Agents
Five Thoughts on the Patriots Draft Picks: Overall, Wolf Played it Safe
Back
Top