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Why CB IS a need in this years draft

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by midwestpatsfan, Jan 23, 2009.

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  1. midwestpatsfan

    midwestpatsfan Rookie

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    Hi all,
    I have been reading in a lot of the discussions regarding the draft that CB is not a need in this years draft and that the patriots should look elsewhere early in the draft. I have to respectfully disagree. Here are a few reasons why:

    1. Ellis Hobbs- I love Ellis Hobbs, I am an ISU grad and have always stuck up for him. I was in class with him and was in a group project with him and he was nothing but nice to me, so I am a huge Hobbs fan, always have, always will. The problem is that Hobbs seeing his personality, I think that Hobbs is going to be wanting a big payday come next year, and I cannot see the Patriots paying him what I think he will be looking for.

    2. Wheatley and Whilhite- Wheatley and Whilhite are unproven commdoties. Wheatleys injuries have to come into play in the discussion, he too will basically be a rookie next year. Wilhite played well at the end of the season, but his body of work is to small to say he is a starter in this league.

    3. ........ my point exactly. After those 3, who do you have? I think a top flight CB is very much a need and would have no problem with drafting someone like alphonso smith in the 1st. Watching him at the senior bowl was impressive. He almost always seem to know what route was going to be run and while he does give up some size which will hurt him on occasion, he has amazing ball skills.

    Any thoughts?
  2. LuthierJr

    LuthierJr Rookie

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    You're clearly forgetting Wilfork. I mean come on....the receiver will never get past the 5 yard mark.
  3. kurtinelson

    kurtinelson Rookie

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    I think that the majority of people think that CB is a need for this team.

    I like Ellis too, but based on his current body of work, I cannot see him commanding a big money contract in FA.
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I know I read something about Hobbs not really liking NE (location not team) a year or so ago, I forgot how good, or not, the source was.

    I also expect next year to be his last with us. He's alright, he's been worth the #3 pick we spent on him. But he's not remotely close to a top CB. We need a good CB this year and hopefully him and Wheatley will be our 2010 starters with Wilhite as the #3 guy.
  5. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I believe that CB is a Day One need.
  6. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I believe CB is a Day One possibility, but there are some good looking kids carrying Day Two grades and I'd rather spend Day One picks on LB (preferably someone with SILB potential - Sintim) and S (Louis Delmas is working towards binkie status). "If" NE goes into this draft with the three Day One picks they currently have (and no extra Day One picks in 2010), then I'm hardpressed not to consider rolling one of the three picks into Day One of 2010 with the projected DL draft class I'm seeing. If NE gets an extra Day One from somewhere, I'm still going to be weighing Barwin vs. CB. And I want a WR too...I'm starting to feel like a fat guy at Golden Corral (on a 20 minute lunch break)!
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We need a guy who can start in 2010 IMO. Doesn't have to be day one, that's just two rounds. Hobbs was a 3rd round, Samuel a 4th. I will sleep fine on Saturday night if we haven't drafted a CB in the first two rounds but they'd better have a plan to get someone who can play the next day.
  8. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    I could see Wheatley starting from day 1 opposite Hobbs. I do not see any CB in this draft that is an upgrade over those two, provided Wheatley and Hobbs are healthy.

    The best fit for a day one CB for the BB defense is Smith of Wake Forest. But Ithink BB can find a lot of CB value in the third and fourth round.

    Of course the optimal choice at CB for next season is Asomugha of Oakland, provided BB can untangle him from the Davis web.
    I like the idea of Cassel going to Oakland for Asomugha. Russell looks like a grossly over weight bust and Cassel's ability to run will serve him well behind that horrible OL.
  9. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :eek: I didn't have you down as a Cassel hater!



    ;)
  10. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    I am not a Cassel hater. I like the kid a lot. But I think he has proven he is an NFL starter and he is better than a lot of the chuckleheads starting for most teams. And I think BB will do right by the kid and give him his chance while securing an asset or two in return.

    If that asset we receive turns out to be Asomugha, then it is a win win trade for both New England and Oakland.
  11. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh it's a win for NE and Oakland, but I would so hate to see Cassel in that hell-hole.
  12. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Right, I'm talking about 2010 when a rookie this year would be going into his second year. Like MWPF said, we need to draft Hobbs' replacement this season; a year ahead of his actual departure.
  13. SunnyDenmark

    SunnyDenmark Rookie

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    CB definately day one need. I am debating whether it is the top need for Pats or is top need a ILB to take over for Bruschi. feks. spell Bruschi first half of season while learning the ropes and gradually take more reps 2nd half of season keeping Bruschi fresher for the postseason. Another good thing is that Mayo or Adalius Thomas will be calling the plays allowing the rookie ILB not be too overwhelmed.

    As far as CB though , Pats do have much less quality depth at CB than they do have at LB so definately I would hope they take a day one CB. Depth at LB not a problem due to good play this year of Guyton / Woods plus also shadow roster of Seau and now Colvin. Very little quality depth at CB and they seem to get injured often (Hobbs, Richardson, and this year Wheatly). Plus Pats can't rely any more on Troy Brown to bail them out and hopefully we wont go back to scrounging CB' s off the street (E. Moorewind, plus that guy now on Jets that we had a few years back).

    My final deciding factor though which is better to draft with our 1st rounder: when looking at the top 5-10 LB's vs. this years top 5-10 CB's , I am much more drooling over the top 5 LB'ers especially for the ILB position. Hopefully one of these ILB studs will drop to spot # 23. And then use one of of our two 2nd rounders to address CB and the second of our 2nd rounders for either a ball hawking safety stud to team up with Merriweather or a OLB. Great we have 3 day one picks. Hopefully we can aution off Matty C. giving Pats 4 first day picks!
  14. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We have three Day One picks. I understand that serious needs can be met in the 3rd and 4th rounds. The question is where the following needs projects in THIS draft. Where is the value.

    CB, S, LB, OG, TE, DE and any other need that you believe we have.

    Box suggests that one of the three should be used for a 2010 DE stud. Since there aren't there now, he suggests trading a pick into 2010 and picking the 2010 DE then. This is certainly a reasonable position.

    Perhaps Belichick has lots of 3rd and 4th rounders at CB projected as 2010 starters, or perhaps he thinks that he already has them in Wheatley and Wilhite (he would still need a 2010 nickel). We will see on draft day. I guess the question is whether you and others have lots of 3rd and 4th rounders graded as 2010 starters. One or two is certainly NOT sufficient. We have no guarantee at all of getting a particular player.

    MY PERSONAL POSITION is that it will be easier to get a safety than a corner is the 3rd and 4th rounds this year. LB, CB and a trade into 2010 does seem the most reasonable outcome at this time with our top 3 picks. And, yes I would sleep fine if we didn't pick a corner. That would mean that Belichick thinks that he can get one later, or that he has already provided for the starters.

    Finally, I do expect to have 2-4 free agent defensive backs signed before the draft. Who those players are will help determine the 2009 draft need at corner and at safety.

  15. N.Eman

    N.Eman Rookie

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    I hope we get a CB, as obviously needed. I hope we have the same results as our last year 1st rounder. (DROY)
  16. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I wouldn't be one bit surprised if we finally take a CB in the first round. It's a need - it's the biggest need IMO - and there seems to be a few CB who will be there at our pick who will be the BPA or close to it. S, ILB, OLB, OT and DE (unless they extend Seymour) are also solid needs along with WR to some extent. So I am a little more in the camp of just hoping we get a big time player somewhere and if we have to wait for the CB then so be it. But when you look at need intersecting likely value at #23, CB does look good for the pick this year.
  17. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    I think it will all depend on how the draft shapes out. If there's an early run on LBs, then you look to select a CB & vice versa. I would steer clear of WR in the 1st because of the egos usually associated with highly regarded players of that position.
  18. PatsFan2

    PatsFan2 Rookie

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    I could see Wheatley spending his Patriots career in the Trainers room.
  19. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Hobbs=Slot DB.
    That is where he should be. He would be better in that role.
    DW Toys
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't have corner in my top 3 when it comes to needs. I've got safety (Sanders is a free agent), ILB and OT as my top 3 needs. OT may seem funny, but this is a year where a quality OT may actually drop down to an area pretty close to where New England is drafting, and I think that makes taking that player a higher priority than corner. I look at CB as the #4 need, although re-signing Sanders would drop Safety down to #4 and move ILB, OT and CB up one slot each.
  21. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Wheatley and Hobbs=Smurf CB's . When will we learn. The desired WR are getting bigger, not smaller. See Plex, Fitzgerald, TO, Mr. Randy Moss, Colson, Moose, Calvin "Mr. Lion", Bowe, Vincent Jackson in S.D. etc.It still pains me to see Hobbs like a mosquito flailing at Plex in vain in the SB.

    Yes there are a few midget WR and we have one of the best in Welker, but if Hobbs in lining up against Fitzgerald for the SB, not some meaningless game, I throw to him twenty times and complete at least fifteen.

    Asomugha? not bad, and by the way 6' 2". How about this? Trade Cassel to the Chiefs for trading first rounders, our #23 for their #3 pick and their second pick #34 . Then add LJ and Gonzales in the mix for our Maroney and Dave Thomas to make this interesting. LJ wants out. He is only 29. Kind of a Dillon "extend my career" deal. LJ won't cost us as much to keep Cassel as a backup. Gonzales could have been had for a third rounder last fall. What a new great new toy for TB. He has a couple years left and a fairly CAP friendly three year contract and wants a ring. Take our new #3, and swap it for Asomugha. Now we still have #34 that is like a late first round pick. How about we go after a Safety who covers well, is 6'1" and 233lbs and can play in the box like OK S Nik Harris? He hits like Rodney.

    Now it only costs K.C. a swap of first round picks and a second rounder, plus giving up a little more quality in LJ and Gonzales for youth in Maroney and Thomas, so they can still tab a decent OL prospect in round one, to go with being $30m under CAP and get some FA talent.Plus they get their QB of the future ready to go, not a wait and see deal with a drafted QB.

    Now for the Pats you have on "O" upgrade of LJ and Tony G (96 catches last year with no experienced QB)over Thomas and Maroney (Maroney is from that area). They both are well known as being drafted by Pioli, relatively young and are need a new address soon.

    On "D" you have Asomugha and Harris to add to our kids from last year. Instant Upgrade if Harris is a player.

    Back to tiny CBs. Here is the irony. Samuel was only 5' 10" but I remember seeing him stand next to Hobbs and he looked like 6' 2". Is Hobbs 5'9" really 5'7 1/2"? Ty Law was only 5'11" but does it not seem like Law and Samuel were bigger?

    DW Toys
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  22. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    Of course it would be nice to get a taller CB, but there's a very good reason why we don't have one...that's because they don't exist. If you're over 6 ft tall you're more likely to be playing WR. And those few CBs who are over 6 ft generally lack the hip movement to cover elite WRs because of their height.
  23. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    I concur wholeheartedly. The CBs that everyone wants were drafted LAST YEAR. They will show up as Sophs just like Meriwether did. we aren't spending in FA on an big pickup except maybe an OLB, and that is highly doubtful. Belichick wil sign his own youngsters.

    If you aren't happy about not signing a big time FA, cheer up. BB will ink young Seymour and then maybe Wilfork... We have a surplus of draft choices and not a lot of place to put them, so why pay big bucks for somebody else?
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  24. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Its apparent that you have not considered how BB builds a Defense. He DESIRES and WANTS, quick twitch, smaller and quicker, CBs. Why? because he gives the size to D linemen and mammoth LBs, and says shut down the run. Make them march the field and keep everything in front. No cheap TDs. When or if, they manage to reach the RED Zone, Smurf DBs are EXACTLY what he wants to cover the small remaining area of the field. Quick twitch guys who can hang with a WR in his cut. In the RZ that is what you must beat. :D

    The end-zone Fade is the most overrated, and underperforming route in the Red Zone. ;)
  25. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Agree with you on fades. Love to see the percentage of catches vs. break-ups. I still do not believe this quick twitch stuff requires a 5' 9" CB. There has to be at least a 5'11" or taller CB that we can count on to out perform a 5'8" CB. Is every great cover CB that small size? No. Bailey is 5'11" or 6". If I am Fitzgerald, I am praying for the typical Pat 5'8" CB quick twitch or not.

    You are correct. The surf CB has been the desired draft choice, but I see that not being the answer. Great points though.
    DW Toys
  26. satz

    satz Rookie

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    We give up speed instead of size in our front 7 so you need faster quicker CB in the back . what am i missing here.

    hobbs will be resigned as he is very serviceable and i do not know which CB can break a fade route when he is covering the slant. hobbs took away the quick slant to plexico but i see most fans rather have him catch a slant and get the TD than a low percentage fade route with safety on top who btw was not even close and was in center field .
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  27. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    OK, so it looks like we're all agreed: what the Patriots need is simply a 6'2" cornerback with fabulous quick-twitch change of direction ability and ball skills. No problem. :p

    Of course Asomugha is tall and tremendously skilled. Asomugha is the single best cornerback in football. The rare, elite players have it all. But there aren't more than a couple of those in the league, along with 150 other guys making their living at CB despite some weak points. So you have to pick your poison.

    It seems to me the Patriots don't "choose" to have smurfs; they choose to have extremely quick players with strong ball skills, and compromise on height if need be. For those who would rather place a premium on height, what would you compromise on instead?
  28. AzPatsFan

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    :beatingcoming:
    What you are missing is four, 4, F_O_U_R, IV, Super Bowl appearances in 8 years. It simply works. BB spent 3 1st round picks on mammoth talented defensive linemen. Then he tells them to play and read and react; don't get completely fooled. Recover and stop the rush. His LBs are the biggest in Football, bar none. He wants to dominate the LOS and prevent being over powered in the run game. That forces the opponents to pass. He bets you can't do that often enough to score enough. That is true provided you don't get cheap TD bombs.

    I didn't fully describe what BB wants in his DBs. He wants them to have the ability to recover if, (when!), they get beat. He knows that everyone will get beat. It just seems that the quicker, quick twitch guys who can recover, are smaller in stature. All the way down the field, if the opponents complete a pass, he wants his speedy, quick, guys to recover and not chase the guy all the way to the endzone. He want them to recover enough to tackle the guy who caught the pass. That is what BB means by no cheap TDs, or "fundamental football". If he could find 6'2", quick twitch, quick recovery, guys he'd take them; but he need not & won't, pay a premium for them. Its not necessary, and he then has more CAP allocation to spend elsewhere, (e.g. like a premium backup QB).

    This past year the "TERRIBLE" Pats Defense only allowed 40 red zone appearances by the opponents, a near league low. IOW, they stopped them, or they stopped themselves, trying to string 8-10-12 play drives together, before they reached the red zone.

    If that takes smaller guys in order to find the quick twitch, quick recovery guys, that can mirror, and follow the WR breaks, and still tackle them, so be it. BB knows that he'll eventually strangle you, and discourage you, and W-I-N. :americaflag: :beatingcoming:
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  29. spann31

    spann31 Rookie

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    idk if we have the money but how about giving up either our third rounder or late second for lito Shepard. Sheppard was barely on the field agaisnt Arizona and his stock has fallen a lot so we might only have to give up a third rounder but he can play at a pro bowl level. Hes only 27 and hes a former all pro.
  30. AzPatsFan

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    So was Deltha O'Neal... :eek:
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