Why CB IS a need in this years draft

[DW Toys]

I could see Wheatley starting from day 1 opposite Hobbs. I do not see any CB in this draft that is an upgrade over those two, provided Wheatley and Hobbs are healthy.

The best fit for a day one CB for the BB defense is Smith of Wake Forest. But Ithink BB can find a lot of CB value in the third and fourth round.

Of course the optimal choice at CB for next season is Asomugha of Oakland, provided BB can untangle him from the Davis web.
I like the idea of Cassel going to Oakland for Asomugha. Russell looks like a grossly over weight bust and Cassel's ability to run will serve him well behind that horrible OL.

Wheatley and Hobbs=Smurf CB's . When will we learn. The desired WR are getting bigger, not smaller. See Plex, Fitzgerald, TO, Mr. Randy Moss, Colson, Moose, Calvin "Mr. Lion", Bowe, Vincent Jackson in S.D. etc.It still pains me to see Hobbs like a mosquito flailing at Plex in vain in the SB.

Yes there are a few midget WR and we have one of the best in Welker, but if Hobbs in lining up against Fitzgerald for the SB, not some meaningless game, I throw to him twenty times and complete at least fifteen.

Asomugha? not bad, and by the way 6' 2". How about this? Trade Cassel to the Chiefs for trading first rounders, our #23 for their #3 pick and their second pick #34 . Then add LJ and Gonzales in the mix for our Maroney and Dave Thomas to make this interesting. LJ wants out. He is only 29. Kind of a Dillon "extend my career" deal. LJ won't cost us as much to keep Cassel as a backup. Gonzales could have been had for a third rounder last fall. What a new great new toy for TB. He has a couple years left and a fairly CAP friendly three year contract and wants a ring. Take our new #3, and swap it for Asomugha. Now we still have #34 that is like a late first round pick. How about we go after a Safety who covers well, is 6'1" and 233lbs and can play in the box like OK S Nik Harris? He hits like Rodney.

Now it only costs K.C. a swap of first round picks and a second rounder, plus giving up a little more quality in LJ and Gonzales for youth in Maroney and Thomas, so they can still tab a decent OL prospect in round one, to go with being $30m under CAP and get some FA talent.Plus they get their QB of the future ready to go, not a wait and see deal with a drafted QB.

Now for the Pats you have on "O" upgrade of LJ and Tony G (96 catches last year with no experienced QB)over Thomas and Maroney (Maroney is from that area). They both are well known as being drafted by Pioli, relatively young and are need a new address soon.

On "D" you have Asomugha and Harris to add to our kids from last year. Instant Upgrade if Harris is a player.

Back to tiny CBs. Here is the irony. Samuel was only 5' 10" but I remember seeing him stand next to Hobbs and he looked like 6' 2". Is Hobbs 5'9" really 5'7 1/2"? Ty Law was only 5'11" but does it not seem like Law and Samuel were bigger?

DW Toys

 

[bakes781]

Of course it would be nice to get a taller CB, but there's a very good reason why we don't have one...that's because they don't exist. If you're over 6 ft tall you're more likely to be playing WR. And those few CBs who are over 6 ft generally lack the hip movement to cover elite WRs because of their height.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I could see Wheatley starting from day 1 opposite Hobbs. I do not see any CB in this draft that is an upgrade over those two, provided Wheatley and Hobbs are healthy.

The best fit for a day one CB for the BB defense is Smith of Wake Forest. But Ithink BB can find a lot of CB value in the third and fourth round.

Of course the optimal choice at CB for next season is Asomugha of Oakland, provided BB can untangle him from the Davis web.
I like the idea of Cassel going to Oakland for Asomugha. Russell looks like a grossly over weight bust and Cassel's ability to run will serve him well behind that horrible OL.

I concur wholeheartedly. The CBs that everyone wants were drafted LAST YEAR. They will show up as Sophs just like Meriwether did. we aren't spending in FA on an big pickup except maybe an OLB, and that is highly doubtful. Belichick wil sign his own youngsters.

If you aren't happy about not signing a big time FA, cheer up. BB will ink young Seymour and then maybe Wilfork... We have a surplus of draft choices and not a lot of place to put them, so why pay big bucks for somebody else?

 

[AzPatsFan]

Wheatley and Hobbs=Smurf CB's . When will we learn. The desired WR are getting bigger, not smaller. See Plex, Fitzgerald, TO, Mr. Randy Moss, Colson, Moose, Calvin "Mr. Lion", Bowe, Vincent Jackson in S.D. etc.It still pains me to see Hobbs like a mosquito flailing at Plex in vain in the SB.

Yes there are a few midget WR and we have one of the best in Welker, but if Hobbs in lining up against Fitzgerald for the SB, not some meaningless game, I throw to him twenty times and complete at least fifteen.

Asomugha? not bad, and by the way 6' 2". How about this? Trade Cassel to the Chiefs for trading first rounders, our #23 for their #3 pick and their second pick #34 . Then add LJ and Gonzales in the mix for our Maroney and Dave Thomas to make this interesting. LJ wants out. He is only 29. Kind of a Dillon "extend my career" deal. LJ won't cost us as much to keep Cassel as a backup. Gonzales could have been had for a third rounder last fall. What a new great new toy for TB. He has a couple years left and a fairly CAP friendly three year contract and wants a ring. Take our new #3, and swap it for Asomugha. Now we still have #34 that is like a late first round pick. How about we go after a Safety who covers well, is 6'1" and 233lbs and can play in the box like OK S Nik Harris? He hits like Rodney.

Now it only costs K.C. a swap of first round picks and a second rounder, plus giving up a little more quality in LJ and Gonzales for youth in Maroney and Thomas, so they can still tab a decent OL prospect in round one, to go with being $30m under CAP and get some FA talent.Plus they get their QB of the future ready to go, not a wait and see deal with a drafted QB.

Now for the Pats you have on "O" upgrade of LJ and Tony G (96 catches last year with no experienced QB)over Thomas and Maroney (Maroney is from that area). They both are well known as being drafted by Pioli, relatively young and are need a new address soon.

On "D" you have Asomugha and Harris to add to our kids from last year. Instant Upgrade if Harris is a player.

Back to tiny CBs. Here is the irony. Samuel was only 5' 10" but I remember seeing him stand next to Hobbs and he looked like 6' 2". Is Hobbs 5'9" really 5'7 1/2"? Ty Law was only 5'11" but does it not seem like Law and Samuel were bigger?

DW Toys

Its apparent that you have not considered how BB builds a Defense. He DESIRES and WANTS, quick twitch, smaller and quicker, CBs. Why? because he gives the size to D linemen and mammoth LBs, and says shut down the run. Make them march the field and keep everything in front. No cheap TDs. When or if, they manage to reach the RED Zone, Smurf DBs are EXACTLY what he wants to cover the small remaining area of the field. Quick twitch guys who can hang with a WR in his cut. In the RZ that is what you must beat.

The end-zone Fade is the most overrated, and underperforming route in the Red Zone.

 

[DW Toys]

Its apparent that you have not considered how BB builds a Defense. He DESIRES and WANTS, quick twitch, smaller and quicker, CBs. Why? because he gives the size to D linemen and mammoth LBs, and says shut down the run. Make them march the field and keep everything in front. No cheap TDs. When or if, they manage to reach the RED Zone, Smurf DBs are EXACTLY what he wants to cover the small remaining area of the field. Quick twitch guys who can hang with a WR in his cut. In the RZ that is what you must beat.

The end-zone Fade is the most overrated, and underperforming route in the Red Zone.

Agree with you on fades. Love to see the percentage of catches vs. break-ups. I still do not believe this quick twitch stuff requires a 5' 9" CB. There has to be at least a 5'11" or taller CB that we can count on to out perform a 5'8" CB. Is every great cover CB that small size? No. Bailey is 5'11" or 6". If I am Fitzgerald, I am praying for the typical Pat 5'8" CB quick twitch or not.

You are correct. The surf CB has been the desired draft choice, but I see that not being the answer. Great points though.
DW Toys

 

[satz]

We give up speed instead of size in our front 7 so you need faster quicker CB in the back . what am i missing here.

hobbs will be resigned as he is very serviceable and i do not know which CB can break a fade route when he is covering the slant. hobbs took away the quick slant to plexico but i see most fans rather have him catch a slant and get the TD than a low percentage fade route with safety on top who btw was not even close and was in center field .

 

[patchick]

OK, so it looks like we're all agreed: what the Patriots need is simply a 6'2" cornerback with fabulous quick-twitch change of direction ability and ball skills. No problem.

Of course Asomugha is tall and tremendously skilled. Asomugha is the single best cornerback in football. The rare, elite players have it all. But there aren't more than a couple of those in the league, along with 150 other guys making their living at CB despite some weak points. So you have to pick your poison.

It seems to me the Patriots don't "choose" to have smurfs; they choose to have extremely quick players with strong ball skills, and compromise on height if need be. For those who would rather place a premium on height, what would you compromise on instead?

 

[AzPatsFan]

:beatingcoming:

We give up speed instead of size in our front 7 so you need faster quicker CB in the back. what am i missing here.

hobbs will be resigned as he is very serviceable and i do not know which CB can break a fade route when he is covering the slant. hobbs took away the quick slant to plexico but i see most fans rather have him catch a slant and get the TD than a low percentage fade route with safety on top who btw was not even close and was in center field .

What you are missing is four, 4, F_O_U_R, IV, Super Bowl appearances in 8 years. It simply works. BB spent 3 1st round picks on mammoth talented defensive linemen. Then he tells them to play and read and react; don't get completely fooled. Recover and stop the rush. His LBs are the biggest in Football, bar none. He wants to dominate the LOS and prevent being over powered in the run game. That forces the opponents to pass. He bets you can't do that often enough to score enough. That is true provided you don't get cheap TD bombs.

I didn't fully describe what BB wants in his DBs. He wants them to have the ability to recover if, (when!), they get beat. He knows that everyone will get beat. It just seems that the quicker, quick twitch guys who can recover, are smaller in stature. All the way down the field, if the opponents complete a pass, he wants his speedy, quick, guys to recover and not chase the guy all the way to the endzone. He want them to recover enough to tackle the guy who caught the pass. That is what BB means by no cheap TDs, or "fundamental football". If he could find 6'2", quick twitch, quick recovery, guys he'd take them; but he need not & won't, pay a premium for them. Its not necessary, and he then has more CAP allocation to spend elsewhere, (e.g. like a premium backup QB).

This past year the "TERRIBLE" Pats Defense only allowed 40 red zone appearances by the opponents, a near league low. IOW, they stopped them, or they stopped themselves, trying to string 8-10-12 play drives together, before they reached the red zone.

If that takes smaller guys in order to find the quick twitch, quick recovery guys, that can mirror, and follow the WR breaks, and still tackle them, so be it. BB knows that he'll eventually strangle you, and discourage you, and W-I-N. :americaflag: :beatingcoming:

 

[spann31]

idk if we have the money but how about giving up either our third rounder or late second for lito Shepard. Sheppard was barely on the field agaisnt Arizona and his stock has fallen a lot so we might only have to give up a third rounder but he can play at a pro bowl level. Hes only 27 and hes a former all pro.

 

[AzPatsFan]

idk if we have the money but how about giving up either our third rounder or late second for lito Shepard. Sheppard was barely on the field agaisnt Arizona and his stock has fallen a lot so we might only have to give up a third rounder but he can play at a pro bowl level. Hes only 27 and hes a former all pro.

So was Deltha O'Neal...

 

[DocE]

I have read and heard numerous references (Peter King on WEEI, Micheal Smith (?) ESPN NFL reporter to name two) that have mentioned that the Patriots wanted either Mayo or Rodgers-Cromartie in round 1. So, I don't think the Patriots desire a shorter CB, but I agree that they seem to prefer quick twitch CB's. Lewis Sanders is a big CB who's not a quick twitch guy, yet he played for BB this year and even started a few games. The Patriots also reportedly had interest in Ty Law who at this state in his career certainly isn't a quick twitch guy, but he gets by with his instincts and physical play.

The vast majority of CB's 5'9 and under do not excel in the NFL. The only one in recent memory is Antoine Winfield who is known more for his tackling ability than his cover skills.

As for the draft, I don't see CB as a huge need. In my mind, we have two young prospects in Wheatley and Wilhite. What the Patriots need to add is a veteran CB that they can count on, not another rookie. I hope that CB is someone who still has upside in their career (ex Ronald Bartell, Kelvin Hayden, Dunta Robinson), but it could be a veteran that they hope to get one or two more good years out of (ex Chris McAlister, Ken Lucas). It's entirely possible that the Patriots disagree with me on the need for a CB, but I hope not. I just get the feeling that BB realized this past season that it's not that easy to find a retread CB that can perform in the NFL after he whiffed on Bryant, Webster, and O'Neal.

I don't blame Hobbs at all for the fade in the Super Bowl, I blame the defense called. We left him all alone on the wide side of the field with no safety help. The Pats sent the house at Manning and they didn't get there in time. Knowing the blitz was coming, Hobbs was correct (in my mind) in taking away the slant which is easier to throw than the fade. Looking back on that entire "drive" will make you sick. Harrison had a great shot at a pick, the Giants barely converted a 4th and 1, Samuel had a great shot at a pick, then the Helmet play happened where there should have been holding called, then Merriweather had a shot at a pick (tough play but was on his hands for a second). It took the perfect storm for the Giants to be successful on that drive, which is why I don't get the all out blitz call there...make them actually excecute which they hadn't really done yet.

 

[JoeShmoe]

In my mind, we have two young prospects in Wheatley and Wilhite.

Totally agree. Thought both looked very promising last year and IMO this whole concept of a shutdown corner is bunk. Did Asomugha shut down Moss? Did the Denver CB's shut down NE?

If we got someone like Sean Smith fallto us at 23 and he's the BPA then maybe but who knows if we dont go for a Dunta Robinson, Deangelo Hall etc in FA

I think Safety and OLB are far bigger needs

 

[VJCPatriot]

S/OLB/CB are needs for this team. But it's possible to address 1 or 2 of those needs via free agency. It looks to me like this year's safety draft is weaker than I originally expected as most of them look to be 2nd round or later guys, yes that includes Moore whose stock has dipped quite a bit.

I could see the Pats taking a guy like Alphonso Smith or Sean Smith in the draft and then signing a free agent OLB and safety. Suggs and Sean Jones are probably near the top of the list in that scenario.

But that's just one particular scenario. It's hard to tell who BB really loves unless a story leaks some info early, as per the Mayo and Warren case.

Certainly TWO things that could change things considerably on draft day are:
1. What happens to Cassel
2. Significant free agent pickups

 

[bakes781]

Ideally you want your DBs to be young because of the speed involved & your LBs to be vets because of the strength needed there. So it wouldn't surprise me to see the Pats draft several DBs in this draft.

 

[Seneschal2]

2. Wheatley and Whilhite- Wheatley and Whilhite are unproven commdoties. Wheatleys injuries have to come into play in the discussion, he too will basically be a rookie next year. Wilhite played well at the end of the season, but his body of work is to small to say he is a starter in this league.

As I've posted previously, I'm guessing Wheatley will win the LCB slot.

I think a top flight CB is very much a need and would have no problem with drafting someone like alphonso smith in the 1st. Watching him at the senior bowl was impressive. He almost always seem to know what route was going to be run and while he does give up some size which will hurt him on occasion, he has amazing ball skills.

He does have amazing ball skills, which is perhaps the single most important quality for a Belichick CB. He also happens to be the active career interception leader with an unheard of 21. In addition, he has 7 forced fumbles and 5 blocked kicks. So we're talking about an extremely productive player, which is another important quality to BB -- especially in round one. There are other CB options however, from rounds 2-4. But if BB did nab one at #23, Smith would be the most likely candidate. A CB at the #23 slot isn't that foreign to the Pats, as this is where Ty Law was selected. CB Tyrone Poole (another ex-Pat), was selected at #22 that same draft. Of course neither one was drafted by BB, but there's a point in there somewhere.

Ball skills are indeed a priority to look for in any Pats CB prospect. Here's several more to consider, before the all-important Combine:

Joe Burnett - 16 career ints (broke Asante's record), good PR
Mike Mickens - still recovering from knee surgery, 14 ints, 45 passes defensed, always around the ball
Jairus Byrd - junior, 17 ints, speed may be an issue
Darius Butler - very fast, has the feet and hips, impressive Senior Bowl

 

[BradyManny]

As I've posted previously, I'm guessing Wheatley will win the LCB slot.

He does have amazing ball skills, which is perhaps the single most important quality for a Belichick CB. He also happens to be the active career interception leader with an unheard of 21. In addition, he has 7 forced fumbles and 5 blocked kicks. So we're talking about an extremely productive player, which is another important quality to BB -- especially in round one. There are other CB options however, from rounds 2-4. But if BB did nab one at #23, Smith would be the most likely candidate. A CB at the #23 slot isn't that foreign to the Pats, as this is where Ty Law was selected. CB Tyrone Poole (another ex-Pat), was selected at #22 that same draft. Of course neither one was drafted by BB, but there's a point in there somewhere.

Ball skills are indeed a priority to look for in any Pats CB prospect. Here's several more to consider, before the all-important Combine:

Joe Burnett - 16 career ints (broke Asante's record), good PR
Mike Mickens - still recovering from knee surgery, 14 ints, 45 passes defensed, always around the ball
Jairus Byrd - junior, 17 ints, speed may be an issue
Darius Butler - very fast, has the feet and hips, impressive Senior Bowl

My draft opinions change on a day to day/minute to minute basis, but I'm slowly leaning towards on rooting for them holding off on CB until rounds 2-4. If Sintim is gone, if there aren't other options, I would merrily take DJ Moore or Alphonso Smith on this team. But with Wheatley and Wilhite, admittedly, there is an unknown that can go either way - but given the promising things both have shown, its probably more likely that both guys end up being serviceable enough that if we spend a first rounder on a guy, they're all fighting for reps down the road. Maybe that's not a bad "problem" to have. But a 4th rounder is a less expensive pick than a 1st.

If Crable flourishes, for instance, Sintim could still play SILB, and there isn't the risk of redundancy there.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, Wheatley is likely to be our starting LCB and Wilhite is likely to be our nickel. We would likely have a free agent as a backup (pehaps Lew Sanders). IF Hobbs is re-signed for 2010, and BOTH Wheatley and Wilhite work are starter quality, then we are fine at corner. I think we need an additional Day One corner.

 

[captain stone]

When or if, they manage to reach the RED Zone, Smurf DBs are EXACTLY what he wants to cover the small remaining area of the field. Quick twitch guys who can hang with a WR in his cut. In the RZ that is what you must beat.

Could you please remind the class where this defense ranked in the RZ?

I say that CB is currently our #1 need. At least OLB has some possibilities (Adalius, Woods, Crable, Redd, the 2 PSers); there are no such possibilities at CB. Hobbs, Wheatley & Wilhite are #3/4/5 guys - at best. We desperately need both a #1 and a #2 CB. A year from now, we'll prob. need both a #1 and a #2 OLB, but I'm willing to give the yutes one more year.