What LB do you want?

[Box_O_Rocks]

I agree, TBC can provide a Jarvis green role for the OLB corps. A pass rush specialist at LB, a rotational player, who can play a starting role when called upon in emergency. Too much time could expose him vs. the run. Under those circumstances I would be happy to see him back.

No, we disagree Pony, I expect him to be paid along a similar pay scale as Green because he had limited starts, but I believe he was just fine against the run, especially considering how much Seymour was struggling this season. Interesting that Sey had a bum knee at the end of the season to go with his elbow. Hopefully he can come into Training Camp healthy this summer.

 

[AzPatsFan]

just a note guys: vrable is more than capable of playing both positions. so if it ment that we could get a quality young guy at olb rather than mlb and it would mean mike would be forced to move inside for the latter part of his years left than that would be more thatn acceptable with me.

thoughts?

I don't think that is even a subject for discussion. He is the next Mike man, and Coach on the field. Regardless of hisi abilities ar ILB, which are OK, he has the play calling ability that a ILB must have to direct the Defense and set it up. Especially if we have a younger athlete playing alongside in a year or two, without the experience.

 

[PonyExpress]

No, we disagree Pony, I expect him to be paid along a similar pay scale as Green because he had limited starts, but I believe he was just fine against the run, especially considering how much Seymour was struggling this season. Interesting that Sey had a bum knee at the end of the season to go with his elbow. Hopefully he can come into Training Camp healthy this summer.

Then why did Vrabel say after the Indy playoff game he had been moved back to OLB because the team felt it needed to set the edge against the run better? That was a drastic move and calls into question TBC's run defense. Also, up until the Bear game the team was allowing around 75 yards rushing per game, #2 in the NFL. After Seau's injury, the team allowed close to 130 yards rushing per game, which would have ranked near the bottom of the NFL extrapolated over an entire season. The only change in the starting lineup was the insertion of Banta-Cain. I suppose one could argue that reshuffling the LBing corps and learning new run fits was partly responsible. But the dramatic statistical slide after TBC's insertion, combined with the fact he was removed from the starting line-up before the biggest game of the year because the team felt he wasn't setting the edge competitively, suggests his run defense may be a problem. If so, I am reluctant to consider him a viable starter going forward. But if you feel he can make the necessary improvements, I may be on board.

 

[AzPatsFan]

What do you want him to say? We were down to next to nobody with the flu and Alexander played because he was the only one healthy? That's throwing Alexander under the bus.

The kid feels bad enough now, giving up that completion ot Fletcher, I'm sure. Do you want to shatter the poor guys confidence?

Besides if any one knows the Belichick MO, Vrabel does; you don't make excuses...

 

[PonyExpress]

What do you want him to say? We were down to next to nobody with the flu and Alexander played because he was the only one healthy? That's throwing Alexander under the bus.

The kid feels bad enough now, giving up that completion ot Fletcher, I'm sure. Do you want to shatter the poor guys confidence?

Besides if any one knows the Belichick MO, Vrabel does; you don't make excuses...

Are you saying Banta Cain had the flu? He was doing radio interviews on friday before the game. Vrabel usually tells it like it is. He doesn't mince words. If he says he was moved out there because the team felt it needed to set the edge better, I believe him. Watching SD's McNeil pancake Banta Cain convinced me.

 

[mgteich]

I think that Graham is the #1 re-signing. However, I agree with paying Banta-Cain serious money, Jarvis Green money. I would also like us th re-sign Gardner, a likely easy sign. Add Seau, and I think bb might disappoint us yet again, and choose no top linebacker.

Vrabel, Colvin, Banta-Cain, Woods
Bruschi,Seau,Alexander,Gardner,Mays,Izzo

Don't want you to feel lonely with the folks dissatisfied with poor TBC, I listed him as the #1 priority for re-signing in earlier discussions. I expect him to be coming back for Jarvis Green money.

 

[Remix 6]

LBs i want

Timmons - little raw but all the tools..harrases QBs..fast and strong. has frame to add 10-15 pounds without losing speed imo

Beason - im a Hurricane fan..hes a beast. hes going to continue the first round Miami tradition but i dont think we'll take him b/c size and a Cover 2 team will fall in love with him

Spencer - fast sack master..another man from Purdue

Abiamiri - scouts said it looked like he had no fat on him at Senior bowl..looked all muscle.

Desmond Bishop - from Cal..hes fast, strong and LOVES to hit. saw him @ the east-west shrine game and at the bowl game and he was a beast

 

[patchick]

I vehemently disigree. TBC is averaging a sack a game, and many pressures, every game that he starts. The great sackers in the league do no better. Merrimen, Taylor, Phillips or Schobel are all under a sack a game, and many have much less of a complete game than TBC...

(more in defense of TBC)

AZPatsFan, how is that a "vehement disagreement" with what I wrote? I said that OLB is a clear need because, barring FA additions, the Patriots have nobody but Pierre Woods behind Vrabel & Colvin. Well, TBC is a free agent! I can't see counting him toward the 2007 roster at this point.

FWIW I do think Banta-Cain is a valuable player, but the minute he started playing every down teams ran at him hard, and successfully. An upgrade is certainly possible.

 

[patsfan55]

I would like to see Posluzsny as an ILB and Spencer for an OLB. If we snagged either one of those guys, that would make my draft weekend. I am enamored with David Harris, so if we got Spencer and Harris at some point, then BB could use all his other picks on TE and I would still be happy.

On the DE from Notre Dame:

I especially like the part about being "restricted". This is the type of player that BB looks for I believe. Someone who is just going "to do their job" and not freelance. Good find.

i agree with all those guys
although i also like woodley

 

[jczxohn1]

I have watched Abiamiri a good deal. He seems too big for an ILB at 6'5'' 271 lbs already, and ripped. He also would be a major project if moved there due to playing out of position. Maybe a 3 year project, if ever. As a DE, he is quick and strong, but seems just a bit heavy legged to play OLB. I thought at first he could do it, but after watching the senior bowl and practices, I think his natural position is clearly 4-3 DE.

Admittedly, this is conjecture, but a guy with his physique sounds fully developed and might even play a little lighter. His speed doesn't seem good enough for OLB in a 3-4 in the pros, but his strength and discipline shout run-stuffer to me. Smart, so it might not take 3 yrs for him to learn to cover, probably could fight his way through and blitz up the middle. Most of all, sounds capable of fighting off guards. IMO, this is the position we must fill to contend with the likes of Jax, SD and Indy. Wilfork can't do it all.

 

[PonyExpress]

Admittedly, this is conjecture, but a guy with his physique sounds fully developed and might even play a little lighter. His speed doesn't seem good enough for OLB in a 3-4 in the pros, but his strength and discipline shout run-stuffer to me. Smart, so it might not take 3 yrs for him to learn to cover, probably could fight his way through and blitz up the middle. Most of all, sounds capable of fighting off guards. IMO, this is the position we must fill to contend with the likes of Jax, SD and Indy. Wilfork can't do it all.

Your mind and heart are in the right place, but the minute you see Abiamiri play you'll realize moving him to ILB is not a good idea. He is about as pure a 4-3 DE as you will see in a draft. Lamarr Woodley on the other hand... there's a candidate for a position change to ILB!

 

[patchick]

Admittedly, this is conjecture, but a guy with his physique sounds fully developed and might even play a little lighter. His speed doesn't seem good enough for OLB in a 3-4 in the pros, but his strength and discipline shout run-stuffer to me. Smart, so it might not take 3 yrs for him to learn to cover, probably could fight his way through and blitz up the middle. Most of all, sounds capable of fighting off guards. IMO, this is the position we must fill to contend with the likes of Jax, SD and Indy. Wilfork can't do it all.

All of this reinforces my feeling that the Pats will draft a 1st-day ILB prospect and make a significant vet signing at the position. Not splashy, necessarily, but significant (e.g. a Jarret Johnson).

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Then why did Vrabel say after the Indy playoff game he had been moved back to OLB because the team felt it needed to set the edge against the run better? That was a drastic move and calls into question TBC's run defense. Also, up until the Bear game the team was allowing around 75 yards rushing per game, #2 in the NFL. After Seau's injury, the team allowed close to 130 yards rushing per game, which would have ranked near the bottom of the NFL extrapolated over an entire season. The only change in the starting lineup was the insertion of Banta-Cain. I suppose one could argue that reshuffling the LBing corps and learning new run fits was partly responsible. But the dramatic statistical slide after TBC's insertion, combined with the fact he was removed from the starting line-up before the biggest game of the year because the team felt he wasn't setting the edge competitively, suggests his run defense may be a problem. If so, I am reluctant to consider him a viable starter going forward. But if you feel he can make the necessary improvements, I may be on board.

I wasn't aware Vrabes had made any statement on run defense, do you have a link?

My assessment is based on what I saw reviewing the tapes of the broadcasts, TBC appeared to do just fine against the run. There is no doubt Vrabel back at OLB and Colvin shifted back alongside Sey improves run D, they were the original starters after all, but given the reshuffle and TBC's injury promotion, I don't think things went that badly.

I'd also like a closer look at the 130 yd stat for the last five games, Jax was 70 yds if you excused the fluke TD run. Tennessee had Marquis Hill taking reps. Miami was a disaster, but I don't recall big runs until the very end. Then, Indy put up 125 yds rushing, pretty close to that 130 average to end the season...and TBC didn't start. Makes you wonder if game planning affected the stat lines.

If TBC was that bad against the run, then Vrabel should have been moved down to OLB against San Diego and Alexander brought in to help cover Gates. Calling the switch a demotion for the Indy game just doesn't make sense when the true run threat was the game before...San Diego had 23 more yards rushing than Indy, was TBC the problem?

I also have to ask, all these stories and posts claiming Bruschi was being targeted in the run game, how does that factor in? If TBC sitting and Alexander starting was to improve against the run, how do we think that helps the run game if Bruschi was targeted as much as was being written?

I don't have the skill/knowledge to work through all the variables and come up with an equation that answers all the questions, so I simplify and watch tape. At SD TBC turns LdT back inside on the very first play, and Seymour is out of position and screened out of the play by the LT as LdT rumbles for a first down. Antonio Gates was effectively shut down in the game, it just looks like one of BB's ugly game plans, and that view through my TV has me arguing in favor of TBC. Naturally I'd love to be proven right, seeing him re-signed to a multi-year contract with a hefty bonus, as always the ball's in BB's court.

 

[PonyExpress]

I wasn't aware Vrabes had made any statement on run defense, do you have a link?

My assessment is based on what I saw reviewing the tapes of the broadcasts, TBC appeared to do just fine against the run. There is no doubt Vrabel back at OLB and Colvin shifted back alongside Sey improves run D, they were the original starters after all, but given the reshuffle and TBC's injury promotion, I don't think things went that badly.

I'd also like a closer look at the 130 yd stat for the last five games, Jax was 70 yds if you excused the fluke TD run. Tennessee had Marquis Hill taking reps. Miami was a disaster, but I don't recall big runs until the very end. Then, Indy put up 125 yds rushing, pretty close to that 130 average to end the season...and TBC didn't start. Makes you wonder if game planning affected the stat lines.

If TBC was that bad against the run, then Vrabel should have been moved down to OLB against San Diego and Alexander brought in to help cover Gates. Calling the switch a demotion for the Indy game just doesn't make sense when the true run threat was the game before...San Diego had 23 more yards rushing than Indy, was TBC the problem?

I also have to ask, all these stories and posts claiming Bruschi was being targeted in the run game, how does that factor in? If TBC sitting and Alexander starting was to improve against the run, how do we think that helps the run game if Bruschi was targeted as much as was being written?

I don't have the skill/knowledge to work through all the variables and come up with an equation that answers all the questions, so I simplify and watch tape. At SD TBC turns LdT back inside on the very first play, and Seymour is out of position and screened out of the play by the LT as LdT rumbles for a first down. Antonio Gates was effectively shut down in the game, it just looks like one of BB's ugly game plans, and that view through my TV has me arguing in favor of TBC. Naturally I'd love to be proven right, seeing him re-signed to a multi-year contract with a hefty bonus, as always the ball's in BB's court.

You have done more work on this and I trust your judgment. Maybe the issue was BB knew Seymour had become a liability and needed to protect him vs the run with an even better run defender, and it wasn't an indictment of TBC but of Seymour. The Vrabel quote was a post game locker room interview I heard on radio postgame. I don't see a transcript of it on Patriots.com. I am confident in the accuracy of my memory on this, although I can understand others being skeptical without a link.

 

[everlong]

Malamalu was sealing TBC in that game every single time they ran to the Seymour/TBC side. Seymour was losing leverage against McNeil every time as well. They ran for twice as many yards to that side as the middle or defensive left. The big plays given up on the other side were not the fault of Warren/Colvin, it was the DBs missing tackles. On the Seymour/TBC side it was 10+ yards every time they went that way. The Chargers knew they could hit that side hard and exploit it.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I am confident in the accuracy of my memory on this, although I can understand others being skeptical without a link.

Not questioning your memory, I was hoping for an article to chew over for my own edification. There is always more to learn.

 

[DaBruinz]

Malamalu was sealing TBC in that game every single time they ran to the Seymour/TBC side. Seymour was losing leverage against McNeil every time as well. They ran for twice as many yards to that side as the middle or defensive left. The big plays given up on the other side were not the fault of Warren/Colvin, it was the DBs missing tackles. On the Seymour/TBC side it was 10+ yards every time they went that way. The Chargers knew they could hit that side hard and exploit it.

When you have a 300 lb. TE in Manumaleuna hitting against a 250lbs TBC, of course TBC is going to get sealed off.

 

[everlong]

I don't think Colvin gets sealed if he was still playing that side.

 

[Seneschal2]

I wasn't aware Vrabes had made any statement on run defense, do you have a link?

Box and Pony -- here's the link and quote below:

The insertion of Alexander into the lineup meant Tully Banta-Cain, who had started the team's first two playoff games at outside linebacker, was relegated to a reserve role, mainly playing in obvious passing situations. Banta-Cain, who was held without a tackle in the team's divisional-round win over the Chargers, had three stops.

"I think it gave us the best opportunity to set the edge over there on the left, and they weren't able to run much, and maybe get more pressure," Vrabel said. "That was our thinking. Eric inside, I thought he flew around, made some big plays, some big hits. He'll get other opportunities, he's developed into a nice football player."

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Box and Pony -- here's the link and quote below:

I don't read it as critical of TBC, in that context it fits with what we knew, Colvin was the starter alongside Seymour when Vrabel wasn't inside. It's a positive that both Alexander and TBC are improving to the point they can be used more in the defense.

Thanks Seneschal.