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What do you see for these younger developmental players in 2014 and beyond?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Brady6, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. Brady6

    Brady6 Pro Bowl Player

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    #12 Jersey

    I have seen some threads about 2014s draft and free agency period in the last week which prompts me to ask what members think the future is for these younger player that are either on the 53 man roster, practice squad or injured reserve.
    • DB – Tavon Wilson
    • DB – Justin Green
    • DB – Kanorris Davis
    • DE – Jake Bequette
    • DE – Michael Buchanan
    • DL – Armond Armstead
    • DL – Corey Grissom
    • DL – Marcus Fortson
    • LB – Ja'Gared Davis
    • OL – RJ Dill
    • OL – Jordan Devey
    • OL – Josh Kline
    • OL – Chris Barker
    • OL – Markus Zusesvics
    • OL – Braxton Cave
    • RB – Cierre Wood
    • TE – DJ Williams
    • WR – Mark Harrison
    • WR – TJ Moe
     
  2. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback In the Starting Line-Up

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    Buchanon has a good burst and could potentially be an impact player.

    Armstead - who knows, some potential but that's it so far, hasn't shown anything in the NFL.

    TJ Moe and Cierre Wood might develop into something as might one of the OL, the rest are most likely special teamers and roster filler.
     
  3. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    DB- I don't think anyone makes the point that Wilson was a value at that spot, however, I could see them developing a cheap hybrid lb/s (he's good size) that can play teams, has played corner and is cheap and dedicated. Typical Belichick there.

    Green is a project at best, no clue on the other guy.

    DE- Buchanan looks like an undisciplined guy with great upside. If he stays with the program, I love his ability and athleticism.

    You've got to figure Bequette is going along with the program to develop into some sort of pass rusher/lineman backup or something that's cheap. Or he's a trivia question.

    Seems with Wilson-Bequette BB just didn't like that draft and went for cheap future depth types. Don't laugh, how do you think this team, with lots of youth and a ridiculous amount of injuries, competes on a high level when others fold? They traded up to strengthen LB, then tried to save future money and took a flyer on a 7th round CB who probably needed his balls busted (hopefully Dennard is now a choir boy). BB shops bargains and ends up with fairly talented backups who work hard, instead of primadonnas. Seems crazy, but it seems to work better than teams who go for big names in draft-FA.

    DL- Armstead is a mystery. None of the rest, including Vellano, is any more or less likely than some guy on the waiver list to have a future job. Chris Jones has pass rush role playing skills. DL isn't a position where you "develop" IMO. WE need at least one impact player which likely means high pick/ or money. Players that couldn't find chances this year will need to really work hard to ever get even a backup spot IMO.

    OL- Outside of premium tackles we all know, we have no clue. It's about development and Dante. Cave was actually a decent Center prospect and it seems we culd have any center we want from rounds 1-7, in other words, the top rated could last to round three and we don't know if he would be the preferred. Bottom line, who knows, but I think we need a good center and I assume Dante's been growing some guards in the secret laboratory. Kline with wrestling background, who knows Barker played every game, switched from LG to RG depending on the defense during games.

    TE-DJ. Future is now. There'll be a locker room full of marginal TE prospects next year.

    RB- Cierre Wood, and a ton of unsigned RBs, has a nice highlight film.

    WRs go back into the huge bucket of unsigned WRs. There'll be another bucket next year.

    How bad do you want it? If Troy Brown has a biography, read it every night and keep it under your pillow.
     
  4. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Mike Wright would argue otherwise. Certainly, it may not be as common, but it's not like it just doesn't happen at all.
     
  5. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  6. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Mike Wright was Chris Jones, if Jones develops. An undrafted role playing backup. As a role player, both he and Jones had some starts, but neither is/was a dominating player that wrecks other teams at the line of scrimmage.

    Did Mike develop into Vince Wilfork or anything like him? With Wilfork and Kelly both on the other side of the hill, we need a dominant replacement to go along with role players.

    Ironically, Kelly is the exception to the rule, but if you count up the Pats draft picks spent on big bodies, from second round picks Marquise Hill and Ron Brace to dozens in lower rounds and free agents, you don't find one dominant Tackle. Add the dozens of big guys on each team in the league and the rarity of a Tommy Kelly stands out more.

    Lots of competent role playing tackles that just don't have the physical frame to carry the mass needed play every day. Different type. You need at least one physically dominant type, preferably two (or three if we went back to a 3-4. No coincidence we spent a precious fist on all three DT/DEs back then).

    Siliga is more likely to end up on the Kyle Love end of the scale, but he at least has the body to be a mid level stalwart.

    I don't think people appreciate what a freak Wilfork is if they expect someone to develop into him, or into Seymour, for that matter. That's the answer to the question why did they draft Brace high. the answer, he could possibly be a force if he was motivated. Armstead might have the size speed to develop and probably would have been a high pick without his weird medical history.

    Belichick has said it himself, regarding his propensity for drafting these players in round 1, 'there are only so many athletic 300 lb + players in the world.' (paraphrase).
     
  7. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    REASONABLE POSSIBILITY OF MAKING THE SQUAD (over 50%)
    STer Tavon Wilson
    DE Michael Buchanan (pass-rusher)
    DT Armond Armstead (we can only hope)

    THE OFFENSIVE LINEMEN
    Dante's Academy is well stocked with SIX hopefuls. The opportunities are certainly available.

    THE REST
    are competing with the new UDFA's and late round rookies for playing time at camp and int he preseason. Maybe there is a contributor there, maybe not.

     
  8. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're moving the goal posts, in a sense.

    You said earlier that DL's not a position where you "develop."

    Apparently, you meant "develop into a Pro Bowl/All-Pro," which is not immediately apparent.
     
  9. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    In my defense I said this...

    I didn't state what i thought was obvious, that we have two older vets both coming off serious injuries, that are in a different category, when healthy, than any of the prospects until proven otherwise.

    In my opinion, we need to address that next year, or the year after somehow and it will mean an investment of picks/money or hellacious luck.

    If we wait more than that, the integrity of our defense could suffer.

    We can certainly develop backups/role players and Jones is the only one that stands out now IMO. Siliga has size, but I don't know if he can be outstanding in any way. Armstead seems to have the athleticism/size speed to be impact, but you're counting on a guy with a real weird medical history at this point.

    Just not a position to be wishin and a hopin IMHO.
     
  10. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Looks like JAG soup, if more than 4 make the 53 man roster it is a bit of an upset.
     
  11. Brady6

    Brady6 Pro Bowl Player

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    #12 Jersey

    • Tommy Kelly
    • Desmond Bryant
    • Rob Ninkovich
    • Red Bryant
    • Willie Young
    • Antonio Smith
    • Ahtyba Rubin
    • Mike DeVito
    • Chris Canty
    • Brett Keisel
    • Ricky Jean Francois
    • Cedric Thornton
    • Stephen Bowen
    • Michael Bennett
    • Jared Allen
    • Cameron Wake
    These names are just a few of the players who play along the DL in the NFL that came in as either late round draft picks or UDFAs. I don’t agree that you cannot develop those types of players I actually think it is one of the most common positions in the NFL that you can develop players to fill a need.
     
  12. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    You named a couple legitimate tackles taken in the fourth round, then threw up a bunch of pass rushers and other players that certainly aren't what we're talking about as replacements for Kelly or Wilfork. Adding names that don't apply weakens, rather than strengthens, your argument.

    As I mentioned, Tommy Kelly is a notable exception, but 6 foot 290 lb guys don't develop into 6'6" 350 pound guys.

    Red Bryant is 6'4" 323 (listed). Vellano is not going to develop into that. Ron Brace could have, which is why they took a shot at him in the second. Marquise Hill had Seymour size, but not talent, yet he got drafted in the second.

    For every Red Bryant or Chris Canty, there are hundreds of big guys that get drafted low or play some ads free agents then was out. We've easily run 20-30 of them through our system in the last decade alone.
     
  13. Brady6

    Brady6 Pro Bowl Player

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    Vellano has a similar skill set to Ricky Jean Francois or Mike DeVito whom both developed into starting caliber players in the NFL. Honestly I don’t quite understand the negativity around Vellano on this board recently. This is a rookie who came in as an UDFA and has filled in admirably for arguably the best defensive tackle in the NFL (Wilfork). Belichick has nothing but high praise for Joe Vellano and in my opinion he has a future with this team.

    Ex-Terps DL Joe Vellano, now a starter for Patriots, earns praise from Bill Belichick - baltimoresun.com

    I think it is important to keep in mind Vellano is forced to play a lot of 1Tech which at 285-300 lbs. is not his ideal position, Vellano in my opinion fits best as a 3Tech DT in a 1-gap technique.

    Kyle Love’s best season was 2011 in which he had 33 combined tackles, 3 sacks, 1 fumble recovery and 2 stuffs, Brandon Deaderick’s best season was 2012 in which he had 18 combined tackles, 1 sack, 2 forced fumbles and 1 stuff. Joe Vellano through 14 games this season has 48 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 fumble recovery, 1 pass defend and 2 stuffs. I know stats aren’t everything but Vellano does appear to be a huge upgrade over either of them. Chris Jones who has been here for just 11 games and started 10 of them has been a major contributor with 45 combined tackles, 5 sacks and 3 stuffs; once again a significant improvement at least statistically over the DTs we had over the past 2-3 seasons.
     
  14. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Again, I'm not arguing role players, marginal players and backups aren't available. If you think Vellano and/or Jones can replace Wilfork that's fine, I don't.
     
  15. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    I will say I think Armstead healthy has a chance to be an impact player, though different than Wilfork. Vellano, Love, Deaderick etc. etc. can be replaced by the next guy. Jones might be slightly more, as in a role player because of his pass rush, but still not an impact starter IMO.
     
  16. Hercules Rockefeller

    Hercules Rockefeller Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Agree with both RayClay and Brady6 on the points each are making.

    Brady6, you named a number of good to solid players who could all help the Pats, no doubt. You are more likely to develop an edge rusher, however, as your list suggests (Wake, Allen, etc).

    For those big War Daddies in the middle, however, you almost always need to spend Cadillac money to get yourself one. There simply aren't a lot of Cadillac frames lying around cheap that you can build in to a reasonable facsimile. Many nice Buicks have been acquired this way, but the Red Bryant types are very rare. The best DL of the Belichick era by far was the Seymour-Wilfork-Warren days, all taken in the first round. They spent Cadillac money and thus had a garage full of them.

    My hope is that Armstead gets a clean bill of health---lots of bad luck for that kid, and he appears to work hard---and he becomes the exception to the rule. Obviously he was a big time talent who the Patriots acquired via a fortunate set of circumstances (for the team, obviously not Armstead). Even if he were to be healthy and become a force, I'd still like to see them add another body early. I think the more good players we can put on the DL the better, and it would certainly benefit Chandler Jones to play alongside another dominant player, which I think he is on the way to consistently being.
     
  17. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Agreed. There are a limited amount of athletic massive players and a good percentage of them lack the drive and work ethic.

    If anyone remembers, before there was "it is what it is" Parcells said "you are what you are" and that applied to the dominating players teams spend high picks for every year. They're almost a different species.

    We replaced neither Seymour or Ty Warren, for instance. We just moved Wilfork around and schemed.
     
  18. Brady6

    Brady6 Pro Bowl Player

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    I never said that they could replace Wilfork; I think outside of Ngata and Poe you’d have a hard time finding any player in the NFL capable of doing the things Vince Wilfork can do on the football field.
     
  19. TruthSeeker

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    IF we don't sign Edelman, I think TJ Moe will be very important to the team. Of course it will have to be the perfect storm for Moe to make an impact, Edelman leaves, Moe has learned the playbook inside and out, his injury has healed 100%, he has a great rookie minicamp, has a great May camp and gels with Brady, etc. Then Moe will be an impact FA.

    Ditto for Mark Harrison. He can be a serious weapon. I see him playing some TE. BUT he has to do what I mentioned for MOE. Basically both players need to follow what Thompkins did.

    I think Buchanon can be a good pass rusher, he just needs to get bigger without losing speed. IF he can make the 2nd year jump like Jones did, I can see Buchanon being a guy who gets 6-10 sacks a year.
     
  20. farn

    farn 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Wilson - though disappointing at safety - is on a course to be a ST player for a while I think. Armstead should be on the team in 14. One of those OLs will make the 53, if not two.

    Otherwise - crap shoot.
     

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