Well we found out who the better team is in the east...

[chicowalker]

I'd like you to supply the comment where I specifically said Rondo is the problem. Here's a hint, I didn't. His sporadic play has matched that of the Celtics and his ball distribution (which is the primary role of the PG, you know passing and putting players in positions to score) and running of the offense has been problematic along with other issues were raised.

I quoted your own post.

Keep on the high horse with your dismissive comments, you just sound like a fool given that you can't even own up to what you wrote.

 

[ausbacker]

Rondo isn't the problem? Are you being facetious or have you not watched the Celtics games of late? He's been a massive problem with his ball distribution and he's been careless with the ball trying a whole host of ridiculous plays. Pierce has basically carried the team this past week or so.

They're old, they're tired and they're not playing championship calibre basketball at the moment. It doesn't augur well for the playoffs but after last season, who knows with the Celtics.

I quoted your own post.

Keep on the high horse with your dismissive comments, you just sound like a fool given that you can't even own up to what you wrote.

You mean the above mentioned quote which states "he's been a massive problem" not the specific words "the problem" which you've invented in your zest for a few extra inches.

My comment remains, learn to read a post properly before engaging in debate as it reflects back poorly on you.

 

[chicowalker]

You mean the above mentioned quote which states "he's been a massive problem" not the specific words "the problem" which you've invented in your zest for a few extra inches.

My comment remains, learn to read a post properly before engaging in debate as it reflects back poorly on you.

You're kidding, right? Did you even read your own post?

Yes, that post: "Rondo isn't the problem? Are you being facetious or have you not watched the Celtics games of late?" Your words. Keep running from them instead of just being an adult and admitting that you either mis-spoke or were wrong.

Oh, and while it's becoming clear that you can't understand any of your claims, let alone support them, his ball distribution the past 10 games has averaged 10/game. One off his season average but hardly "the problem" or even "a massive problem" -- take your pick from your own claims.

Out of the 2 of us, you're the one running from his own posts while I'm the one supplying some facts. So, please, continue with the lectures on how to "debate." LOL

 

[ausbacker]

You're kidding, right? Did you even read your own post?

Yes, that post: "Rondo isn't the problem? Are you being facetious or have you not watched the Celtics games of late?" Your words. Keep running from them instead of just being an adult and admitting that you either mis-spoke or were wrong.

Oh, and while it's becoming clear that you can't understand any of your claims, let alone support them, his ball distribution the past 10 games has averaged 10/game. One off his season average but hardly "the problem" or even "a massive problem" -- take your pick from your own claims.

Out of the 2 of us, you're the one running from his own posts while I'm the one supplying some facts. So, please, continue with the lectures on how to "debate." LOL

The sooner you admit you were simply wrong the better for you. Why you insist on digging yourself a bigger hole is frankly ridiculous.

 

[chicowalker]

The sooner you admit you were simply wrong the better for you. Why you insist on digging yourself a bigger hole is frankly ridiculous.

In other words, you've got nothing.

I'm quoting your own words and supplying facts.

You're running away from your own posts and crying like a petulant child.

Got it.

 

[ausbacker]

In other words, you've got nothing.

I'm quoting your own words and supplying facts.

You're running away from your own posts and crying like a petulant child.

Got it.

No, you're arguing against something which I never wrote. The fact that you can't or refuse to identify that speaks volumes about you and with all due respect your lack of intellect and critical comprehension skills.

I said Rondo has been a massive problem as well as identifying other problems with the team then qualifying that with a potential correlation to what the Celtics achieved last season to this season.

You simply refuse to admit that because you know I'm right, you're wrong and by putting your head in the sand and crying over spilt milk, beating your chest in defiance then thinking that's going to make one iota of difference to what I wrote in my initial post to now. No, it isn't because it's plainly there for all to see.

Frankly, you're just not smart enough to grasp that and I won't be following this further with you because of that.

Good day.

 

[chicowalker]

No, you're arguing against something which I never wrote. The fact that you can't or refuse to identify that speaks volumes about you and with all due respect your lack of intellect and critical comprehension skills.

I said Rondo has been a massive problem as well as identifying other problems with the team then qualifying that with a potential correlation to what the Celtics achieved last season to this season.

You simply refuse to admit that because you know I'm right, you're wrong and by putting your head in the sand and crying over spilt milk, beating your chest in defiance then thinking that's going to make one iota of difference to what I wrote in my initial post to now. No, it isn't because it's plainly there for all to see.

Frankly, you're just not smart enough to grasp that and I won't be following this further with you because of that.

Good day.

LOL I know you are but what am I!?

You and I have both quoted your own words. You subsequently have refused to acknowledge your own words, and you've failed to refute a single fact I've supplied.

(By the way, this is the 2nd time you've said you were done with the conversation -- let's see if you can make good on it this time, since you've added absolutely nothing in your numerous posts in between.)

 

[Kontradiction]

Dampier: 2.5 PPG 3.5 RPG 0.9 BLK PG
Ilgauskas: 4.9 PPG 4.0RPG 0.8 BLK PG

vs

Big Baby: 11.6 PPG 5.4 RPG 0.4 BLK PG
Jermain: 5.2PPG 3.4 RPG 1.1BLK PG


Dampier sucks BTW

So those 2 from Miami average 8 PPG with 8 RPG..Those two from Boston have 17 PPG and 8 RPG...Ill take 17 PPG all day

The PPG stats are skewed a bit because Big Baby is an effective outside shooter. When it comes to PPG, he's going to stand apart from the others because of that facet of his game. It's the RPG stat that confuses me, though. From what I've been seeing, Big Baby hasn't been nearly as effective in the low post and the paint. If you've watched the Celtics since the Perkins trade, you should see this too. So, how he managed to get 5.4 RPG is beyond me. And Dampier isn't ideal, no, but he's better than Jermaine O'Neal. O'Neal is simply awful.

 

[chicowalker]

The PPG stats are skewed a bit because Big Baby is an effective outside shooter. When it comes to PPG, he's going to stand apart from the others because of that facet of his game. It's the RPG stat that confuses me, though. From what I've been seeing, Big Baby hasn't been nearly as effective in the low post and the paint. If you've watched the Celtics since the Perkins trade, you should see this too. So, how he managed to get 5.4 RPG is beyond me. And Dampier isn't ideal, no, but he's better than Jermaine O'Neal. O'Neal is simply awful.

re. the bold and the conclusion: absolutely. Davis as a player certainly may be more valuable than either Dampier or Ilgauskas because he offers some verstility. But as a big man he's lacking -- because he really isn't one. He's too short and lacks the jumping ability to make up for it when matching up with other clubs' centers.

(It would be hard to measure (impossible for us), but I have little doubt that he would start to look worse if you split his stats by position being played. He'd also look worse if you started looking at stats like blocked shots, blocked shots against (since opposing bigs routinely shut him down), etc.)

Davis's play has fallen off since the start of the year, and I have little doubt that it's largely because he's playing out of position so much (not his fault, obviously).

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

The PPG stats are skewed a bit because Big Baby is an effective outside shooter. When it comes to PPG, he's going to stand apart from the others because of that facet of his game. It's the RPG stat that confuses me, though. From what I've been seeing, Big Baby hasn't been nearly as effective in the low post and the paint. If you've watched the Celtics since the Perkins trade, you should see this too. So, how he managed to get 5.4 RPG is beyond me. And Dampier isn't ideal, no, but he's better than Jermaine O'Neal. O'Neal is simply awful.

You have to remember...Jermaine had surgery and was out what..almost 40 games this year. He is slowly being worked back into rotation and is doing much better than he should be at this stage

 

[Dirk20]

You have to remember...Jermaine had surgery and was out what..almost 40 games this year. He is slowly being worked back into rotation and is doing much better than he should be at this stage

JO is pretty much a dead man walking. He can't move much at all and his rebounding range is seriously reduced. Most of all, he misses too many short jumpshots in clutch situations which is why he cant be paired with Garnett in a tight spot (two choking bigs is a disaster waiting to happen).

Fun Fact: Jermaine Oneal went 9-44 on field goals in the playoffs last year against the celtics. Keep in mind that most of those were short jumpers.

 

[BradyManny]

And if Shaq does come back the Celts could be fine again. Perkins was no sure thing coming back from his knee injury, either, and clearly Ainge was betting on the healthy return of 1 if not both O'Neals.

and btw he didn't just get Green in return -- he got Green and Krstic

Right - but if you have 3 bigs and none of them are sure things to contribute, shouldn't you not jettison the one who is most likely to contribute?

Ainge banking on Shaq to be healthy was truly foolish given his track record of health in the past several years. Same goes for JO.

As for Krstic - honestly, what really does he contribute? He's weak defensively, he's not adding anything over Erden (The Celtics Conundrum with the Other Guys - CelticsBlog).

And as for Green, I can't for the live of me understand why Danny thought backup 3 was such an urgent need. Danny kept justifying Marquis Daniels injury as the reason to make this deal. You mean the same Marquis who racked up DNPs all last post season? The same Marquis who was playing 19 minutes a game? To be honest, we didn't need Quis come playoff time.

Oh, but who is going to guard Lebron James for all that time that Pierce sits on the bench in the playoffs? Please. Lebron James averaged 42 MPG in the playoffs last season, Paul Pierce averaged 39.

Was that 3 minute differential worth moving Perk?

The reality is - Danny saw a trade and thought - wrongfully - he was getting the best player in the deal. He wasn't. Oklahoma City fan forums were pleased to get rid of Green. He's not a good enough shooter to play 3 effectively, and he can't defend the 4. He's a nice transition player and a nice utility player, but he is not a better player than Perkins.

(Please note any angst in this post is not directed at chicowalker...but to Danny Ainge for making said trade)

 

[chicowalker]

Right - but if you have 3 bigs and none of them are sure things to contribute, shouldn't you not jettison the one who is most likely to contribute?

Ainge banking on Shaq to be healthy was truly foolish given his track record of health in the past several years. Same goes for JO.

As for Krstic - honestly, what really does he contribute? He's weak defensively, he's not adding anything over Erden (The Celtics Conundrum with the Other Guys - CelticsBlog).

And as for Green, I can't for the live of me understand why Danny thought backup 3 was such an urgent need. Danny kept justifying Marquis Daniels injury as the reason to make this deal. You mean the same Marquis who racked up DNPs all last post season? The same Marquis who was playing 19 minutes a game? Come on, we didn't need Quis come playoff time.

Oh, but who is going to guard Lebron James for all that time that Pierce sits on the bench in the playoffs? Please. Lebron James averaged 42 MPG in the playoffs last season, Paul Pierce averaged 39.

Was that 3 minute differential worth moving Perk?

The reality is - Danny saw a trade and thought - wrongfully - he was getting the best player in the deal. He wasn't. Oklahoma City fan forums were pleased to get rid of Green. He's not a good enough shooter to play 3 effectively, and he can't defend the 4. He's a nice transition player and a nice utility player, but he is not a better player than Perkins.

I would agree except that, as I stated at the time of the deal (when I was tentatively skeptical, too), I think a lot had to do with what else was added.

Krstic is an upgrade over Erden because of his shooting.

Biggest issue w/green is that he doesn't seem to be fitting in or providing the offensive spark on the 2nd team that would have been expected. I won't pretend to know why.

Murphy should help on boards but got hurt.

Since injuries are critical, let's look at the O'Neals w/regard to the trade. I think Ainge was right that we weren't going to win if neither came back, even with a healthy Perkins. Team was too beat up, we didn't have enough bigs and Allen and Pierce were playing too much. That's still the case.

If we get one or two back, we then have a club that unquestionable is weakened at center but should still have the fouls to give from a big (Krstic), has some improved rebounding from the 2nd unit (Murphy) and has some added offense on the 2nd unit to relieve Pierce and/or Allen.

Other issue I had at the time was whether the team would have time to come together. I still question that, obviously. But I still view the biggest issue as our team's health, primarily that of the big men.

I still don't love the deal, but I understand it.

 

[Dirk20]

I would agree except that, as I stated at the time of the deal (when I was tentatively skeptical, too), I think a lot had to do with what else was added.

Krstic is an upgrade over Erden because of his shooting.

Biggest issue w/green is that he doesn't seem to be fitting in or providing the offensive spark on the 2nd team that would have been expected. I won't pretend to know why.

Murphy should help on boards but got hurt.

Since injuries are critical, let's look at the O'Neals w/regard to the trade. I think Ainge was right that we weren't going to win if neither came back, even with a healthy Perkins. Team was too beat up, we didn't have enough bigs and Allen and Pierce were playing too much. That's still the case.

If we get one or two back, we then have a club that unquestionable is weakened at center but should still have the fouls to give from a big (Krstic), has some improved rebounding from the 2nd unit (Murphy) and has some added offense on the 2nd unit to relieve Pierce and/or Allen.

Other issue I had at the time was whether the team would have time to come together. I still question that, obviously. But I still view the biggest issue as our team's health, primarily that of the big men.

I still don't love the deal, but I understand it.

I'm not so sure Kristic is an upgrade over Erden. Semih was a huge body and he set good screens for Ray Allen. Plus, he could play 10 minutes of big time post defense which Kristic cannot. Nenad can shoot but he doesn't screen for Ray which is a bigger priority. I'm surprised so many people have pointed the finger at Big baby and Rondo when the real problem involves Ray Allen's uninvolvement. The argument is that they didn't have Perkins for the first 40 games and they did great. Well, they did have two big bodied guys in Erden and Shaq who set sturdy screens. If Shaq comes back and stays then Ray should have more open looks but the chances of that are slim.

Troy Murphy? He is one of the least athletic guys in the league. He cant rebound in traffic. Not even close to a useful player at this point. Hey Danny, if you're going to play for the future then commit to it next time. Why give Pierce and Allen new contracts?

 

[BradyManny]

Murphy should help on boards but got hurt.

Since injuries are critical, let's look at the O'Neals w/regard to the trade. I think Ainge was right that we weren't going to win if neither came back, even with a healthy Perkins. Team was too beat up, we didn't have enough bigs and Allen and Pierce were playing too much. That's still the case.

If we get one or two back, we then have a club that unquestionable is weakened at center but should still have the fouls to give from a big (Krstic), has some improved rebounding from the 2nd unit (Murphy) and has some added offense on the 2nd unit to relieve Pierce and/or Allen.

Other issue I had at the time was whether the team would have time to come together. I still question that, obviously. But I still view the biggest issue as our team's health, primarily that of the big men.

I still don't love the deal, but I understand it.

I can see where Ainge is coming from - but at the end of the day, I just don't see how his envisioned reward was ever worth the clear risk.

Murphy being a dud has been a real problem in the context of the trade - I envisioned him bolstering the 2nd unit offensively and in rebounding. And while he's not a good defender, he would at least crash the boards and stretch the court. I thought he'd fare well when Rondo gets into that 2nd unit and penetrates. As it is, he's just another guy, unfortunately.