Welker and Edelman

[PatsWickedPissah]

It was a really tough catch. Tom turned him around, he was clearly looking for it inside and Brady threw it outside. I certainly wouldn't bet the house on Edelman to make it. That's a tough catch for any WR. Welker had a 77.2% catch rate in '07, Edelman had a 68.7% catch rate this year. I'd take Welker. Lots of people want to rewrite history because of the outcome. I guarantee you if you gave people the option for either one of those before they knew the outcome 100% of them would choose Welker in that situation. Some people can't separate emotion from fact in their decision making process.

You start off fine. Tough catch, Tom turned him around.

Citing the % numbers reminds me of those citing #s to prove Peyton >> Tom.

Some guys come up big in the biggest moments, time & again.
Tom does. Peyton doesn't.
Forget the % or the career #s.

Troy Brown, came up big time & again.
The Twig, when the SB Championship was on the line.
This season Edelman. Big in big moment after moment.
Both The Squirrel & WWW played well in playoff games lost but Wes had a chance to win an AFCCG and a SB by making good and great (that missed catch) plays and he did not.

I would not choose the Welker of a few years ago in any big situation.

 

[JJDChE]

You start off fine. Tough catch, Tom turned him around.

Citing the % numbers reminds me of those citing #s to prove Peyton >> Tom.

Some guys come up big in the biggest moments, time & again.
Tom does. Peyton doesn't.
Forget the % or the career #s.

Troy Brown, came up big time & again.
The Twig, when the SB Championship was on the line.
This season Edelman. Big in big moment after moment.
Both The Squirrel & WWW played well in playoff games lost but Wes had a chance to win an AFCCG and a SB by making good and great (that missed catch) plays and he did not.

I would not choose the Welker of a few years ago in any big situation.

I swear some of you guys talk about Peyton Manning more than Colts and Broncos fans. WTF is the obsession about? Seriously, stop it.

Welker was much more reliable over the course of his Pats career, only one season under 70% catch rate, Edelman is under 70% each of the last two years. Edelman didn't have to pull off nearly as difficult a catch to close the deal. His two catches on the game winning drive hit him square in the hands, no adjustment necessary. Welker, or any other NFL receiver, makes those catches 99.9% of the time.

Calling Edelman more "clutch" because he made two catches that hit him right in the hands on the game winning drive is silly. Welker caught 7 of 8 balls in that Super Bowl. One drop on a play that Brady turned him around and forced a much more difficult catch than it should've been. Until Edelman starts making those ridiculous grabs on Super Bowl winning drives, I'm not giving him any leg up over Welker who did it at a higher level for much longer than Edelman has.

 

[Kdo5]

Welker was unbelievably productive in a Pats uni... but seriously... don't you think Edelman makes this catch?

Wasn't the easiest catch but a receiver of his caliber should have made that catch every time.

 

[JJDChE]

Wasn't the easiest catch but a receiver of his caliber should have made that catch every time.

Fully airborne, trying to catch a ball over his head while getting turned around? I mean, sure, he certainly could've caught it, but that's far from a sure thing type of play. 60-40, maybe, even for a good receiver.

As good as Welker was at what he did, this goes for Edelman too, they aren't Calvin Johnson when it comes to ball skills. I just don't expect Edelman to make that catch any more than Welker. Gronk? More likely. Calvin Johnson, yes, definitely.

I chalk it up to putting a guy with average ball skills in a tough position...because that's what it was. Welker could get open like no other and he could spear Brady's lasers, but he wasn't out there making acrobatic catches.

 

[Kdo5]

Fully airborne, trying to catch a ball over his head while getting turned around? I mean, sure, he certainly could've caught it, but that's far from a sure thing type of play. 60-40, maybe, even for a good receiver.

As good as Welker was at what he did, this goes for Edelman too, they aren't Calvin Johnson when it comes to ball skills. I just don't expect Edelman to make that catch any more than Welker. Gronk? More likely. Calvin Johnson, yes, definitely.

I chalk it up to putting a guy with average ball skills in a tough position...because that's what it was. Welker could get open like no other and he could spear Brady's lasers, but he wasn't out there making acrobatic catches.

The ball hit him in both hands and he was open. Receivers need to make that catch. Danny Amendola made a similar, even more difficult TD catch against the Jets this year.

 

[Tom meets Kaepernick]

You start off fine. Tough catch, Tom turned him around.

Citing the % numbers reminds me of those citing #s to prove Peyton >> Tom.

Some guys come up big in the biggest moments, time & again.
Tom does. Peyton doesn't.
Forget the % or the career #s.

Troy Brown, came up big time & again.
The Twig, when the SB Championship was on the line.
This season Edelman. Big in big moment after moment.
Both The Squirrel & WWW played well in playoff games lost but Wes had a chance to win an AFCCG and a SB by making good and great (that missed catch) plays and he did not.

I would not choose the Welker of a few years ago in any big situation.

I agree with the overall premise of your post and that Welker may have cost the Patriots a Super Bowl but there were more reasons why we lost that AFCCG than Welker dropping a pass.

 

[JJDChE]

The ball hit him in both hands and he was open. Receivers need to make that catch. Danny Amendola made a similar, even more difficult TD catch against the Jets this year.

Those kinds of balls get dropped in pretty much every NFL game. QB puts the ball in a bad place, receiver can't adjust or has a difficult body position, drops the ball. Extremely common.

You say 'receivers need to make that catch', I say 'QBs need to make better throws to open receivers'. Which one is right?

 

[Kdo5]

Those kinds of balls get dropped in pretty much every NFL game. QB puts the ball in a bad place, receiver can't adjust or has a difficult body position, drops the ball. Extremely common.

You say 'receivers need to make that catch', I say 'QBs need to make better throws to open receivers'. Which one is right?

A little of both. Brady could have made it an easier ball and Wes should have caught it regardless. I'm not giving Wes a pass on it. Just how I feel.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I swear some of you guys talk about Peyton Manning more than Colts and Broncos fans. WTF is the obsession about? Seriously, stop it.
.

It was a football example. One that illustrated the invalidity of your statement. You're the one veering off on your defending of the Manning legacy quest.
Be careful on that high horse of yours.
You're likely to fall off if you haven't already.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I agree with the overall premise of your post and that Welker may have cost the Patriots a Super Bowl but there were more reasons why we lost that AFCCG than Welker dropping a pass.

Absolutely agree.
I was not presenting an analysis of how we lost the SB.
My point was that great players make great plays on the biggest stage.
Very good players are just there filling roles.

 

[JJDChE]

It was a football example. One that illustrated the invalidity of your statement. You're the one veering off on your defending of the Manning legacy quest.
Be careful on that high horse of yours.
You're likely to fall off if you haven't already.

This thread is about Welker and Edelman. You're the only one talking about Manning for no reason in particular. Legacy quest? WTF are you talking about?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

This thread is about Welker and Edelman. You're the only one talking about Manning for no reason in particular. Legacy quest? WTF are you talking about?

Obviously the concept of an EXAMPLE (one in football) is beyond your ken

 

[JJDChE]

Obviously the concept of an EXAMPLE (one in football) is beyond your ken

Right, rather than making an argument you said that people who use statistics and numbers to prove things must be Peyton Manning lovers. Very cogent.

Where has Edelman come up any bigger than Welker? When Brady hit him square in the hands in the endzone? If Brady had thrown it behind him and over his head and Edelman still came up with it, I'd say you have a pretty good argument. That didn't happen though. Kudos to Edelman for converting on the play, you need to make the routine plays.

 

[wizwor]

I agree with the overall premise of your post and that Welker may have cost the Patriots a Super Bowl but there were more reasons why we lost that AFCCG than Welker dropping a pass.

Bill Buckner agrees...

Boston was leading the heavily favored New York Mets three games to two in the 1986 World Series when Game Six of the series went into extra innings.

New York came back to tie the game with three straight two-out singles off Calvin Schiraldi and a wild pitch by Bob Stanley. Mookie Wilson fouled off several pitches before hitting a slow roller to Buckner at first base. Aware of Wilson's speed, Buckner tried to rush the play. As a result, the ball rolled to the left side of his glove, through his legs and into right field, allowing Ray Knight to score the winning run from second base.

Boston led Game 7 of the World Series 3–0 heading into the bottom of the sixth inning when New York scored three runs off Bruce Hurst (who had been named World Series Most Valuable Player before the Mets' improbable comeback in Game 6) to tie the game, and score three more off Schiraldi in the seventh to take a 6–3 lead. Buckner was two-for-four in the game, and scored one of two runs the Sox plated in the eighth. However, the comeback fell short, and the Mets won their second World Championship in franchise history.

Regardless of Schiraldi's pitching, Stanley's wild pitch or any of the other perceived shortcomings that led to Boston's loss in the 1986 World Series, Buckner's error epitomized the "Curse of the Bambino" in the minds of Red Sox fans, and he soon became the scapegoat for a frustrated fan base. Buckner began receiving death threats, and was heckled and booed by his own home fans.

The fact is that people only remember the ball that went through Buckner's legs and people will only remember the one that went through Welker's hands. Compared to Buckner, Wes got off easy.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Welker sees the pass at the 35, continues on, slows up and attempts to catch at the 25. The catch was difficult because he made it difficult. A good deep threat angles left and catches it in stride, or goes upfield and catches it over the shoulder. It was a difficult catch because Welker Didn't put himself under it, that ten yards he covered from when the ball left Brady's hands to when it hit Welker's were yards he could have used to put the ball on the left shoulder, right shoulder, or anywhere else he wanted. He just doesn't have deep threat skills in tracking the ball. He never did, so it's not shocking. By the time he realized he was in bad position it was too late, better guys track it earlier. Randy would catch it in the bread basket.

Even still, the catch wasn't that hard.

 

[goheels22002]

Just remembered that scene out of BB's "A Football Life," where BB is needling Wes about Edelman returning a punt, and asking Welker if he knew who Wally Pipp was. At the end, Welker tells BB Jules can have the punt returner job (jokingly), and BB says, "Way to compete."

The first time I saw it, I laughed, and assumed it was two close guys cracking jokes. But now that I look back on it, it might have hinted at something else under the surface for both.



Maybe I'm over-analyzing. But he asked Ernie for the info so he could go over and needle Wes with it. It wasn't just off the top of his head. Makes me wonder if he was trying to motivate Wes more.

I think this is part of their relationship that was based in giving each other crap all the time. Belichick likes dishing it out but rarely gets it back the way Wes does.

To me, the best year of his career was 2008: 149 tgt, 111 rec (74.5%), 1165 yds, 3 td from Matt Cassell.

 

[goheels22002]

I swear some of you guys talk about Peyton Manning more than Colts and Broncos fans. WTF is the obsession about? Seriously, stop it.

The Manning obsession is about the greatest QB rivalry in NFL history. There have never been two NFL contemporaries whose accomplishments have re-written the record books over so many years with as many head-to-head matchups as Brady-Manning.

Brady-Manning is right there with Russell-Chamberlain, Bird-Magic, Ali-Frazier, Nicklaus-Palmer, Navratilova-Evert, Nadal-Federer, etc. It will grow in historic significance after both retire and the story is finally written.

The "obsession" is really no different than talking about the Lakers and Magic Johnson during Larry Bird's prime, or the Sixers or Lakers during Wilt's prime. These come along once a generation. That's why we talk about it so much.

That, and Peyton Manning is a horse-faced, massive-foreheaded, self-promoting, stat-padding, receiver-killing, no-good, slimy huckster.

Wes Welker is an indelible link in this story. Wes caught more TDs in one season (10) from Peyton Manning than in any season with Tom Brady, but more passes in all six years he was with Brady.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Calling Edelman more "clutch" because he made two catches that hit him right in the hands on the game winning drive is silly. Welker caught 7 of 8 balls in that Super Bowl. One drop on a play that Brady turned him around and forced a much more difficult catch than it should've been. Until Edelman starts making those ridiculous grabs on Super Bowl winning drives, I'm not giving him any leg up over Welker who did it at a higher level for much longer than Edelman has.

I'm not sure if one of the two catches you're referring to includes the 3rd and 14 catch, because he was lit up by Earl Thomas on that play and still held on, one of the most vital plays in our comeback. I truly hope you're not trying to label that a routine play. If anything, it's harder than the catch Welker had to make in SB42. Neither are easy but I'm willing to wager a majority of WR's, especially of the smaller built variety, would rather have to make a back shoulder catch he can get both hands on than having his head served up on a platter.

Which reminds me of my pet peeve of people saying the Welker drop was a poor throw by Brady. I still feel Brady put the ball there by design, not mistake. He leads Welker to the inside shoulder and he gets drilled, may or may not hold onto the ball. Where the ball was placed, he protects Welker and it' s still a very catchable ball.

 

[Ring 6]

A little of both. Brady could have made it an easier ball and Wes should have caught it regardless. I'm not giving Wes a pass on it. Just how I feel.

Welker sees the pass at the 35, continues on, slows up and attempts to catch at the 25. The catch was difficult because he made it difficult. A good deep threat angles left and catches it in stride, or goes upfield and catches it over the shoulder. It was a difficult catch because Welker Didn't put himself under it, that ten yards he covered from when the ball left Brady's hands to when it hit Welker's were yards he could have used to put the ball on the left shoulder, right shoulder, or anywhere else he wanted. He just doesn't have deep threat skills in tracking the ball. He never did, so it's not shocking. By the time he realized he was in bad position it was too late, better guys track it earlier. Randy would catch it in the bread basket.

Even still, the catch wasn't that hard.

Brady did what Brady does. He threw a very catchable ball away from danger. Welker took the route inside and thats where the defender was. Brady threw in the catchable area. Welker has to make that catch. No fault is on Brady, he did what he always does.

 

[rochrist]

I swear some of you guys talk about Peyton Manning more than Colts and Broncos fans. WTF is the obsession about? Seriously, stop it.

Welker was much more reliable over the course of his Pats career, only one season under 70% catch rate, Edelman is under 70% each of the last two years. Edelman didn't have to pull off nearly as difficult a catch to close the deal. His two catches on the game winning drive hit him square in the hands, no adjustment necessary. Welker, or any other NFL receiver, makes those catches 99.9% of the time.

Calling Edelman more "clutch" because he made two catches that hit him right in the hands on the game winning drive is silly. Welker caught 7 of 8 balls in that Super Bowl. One drop on a play that Brady turned him around and forced a much more difficult catch than it should've been. Until Edelman starts making those ridiculous grabs on Super Bowl winning drives, I'm not giving him any leg up over Welker who did it at a higher level for much longer than Edelman has.

The percentage stuff is not a good stat to use. JE does many more things in terms of routes and types of passes thrown to him. He gets a lot more high risk, longer passes thrown to him than Welker ever did.