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upgrade over BJGE isn't nessesary

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by CheeseMonkeys, Mar 3, 2012.

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  1. CheeseMonkeys

    CheeseMonkeys Rookie

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    I've been thinking after seeing many posts about people wanting a top RB on the Pats. Obviously with the passing game that NE runs with Brady/Welker and the TEs, the running game isn't something that needs to be leaned on. A good running game will make it easier to pass the ball but would an upgrade over BJGE be that big of a deal?

    I do think that the Pats should bring back Benny if the money is right because he has been a solid player for us. People have been talking about what our offense would be like with a RB like Arian Foster. Sure Foster is more of a complete RB but I think BJGE is better than people think. He doesn't get a ton of carries in this offense but I bet if he got the carries he'd be pretty successful.

    Also I think Ridley can potentially be the complete RB that the Pats have been looking for but it's way too early to tell. There are holes in the defense and at WR so RB isn't a high priority but BJGE may want more money than the Pats will give him. What should the Pats do?
  2. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not 100% positive of the numbers, but I think Woodhead played more snaps than BJGE in 2011, and I know he did in 2010.
    Other than not fumbling, I'm not sure what BJGE does that we wouldn't get pretty much the same thing out a number of RBs we could plug in.
    Ridley and Vereen seem to be a reasonable group to take over, we can bring in a vet backup, or another young unknown to be there if one or the other falters.
    The only issue I see with letting BJGE walk and plugging Ridley and Vereen in is that Vereen was injured all year, so we need someone as plan B.
    Going into 2010, once we realized Maroney was on the outs, we had a lot less to go on with the RBs we had than with Ridley and Vereen.
  3. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    An upgrade is low on my list of offseason improvements to the team -- I'd prefer BJGE back if he's ok with a reasonable deal. BJGE / Woodhead / Ridley / Vareen works for me.

    Use the $ and draft picks for the defense, WR, OL and a 3rd TE.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2012
  4. old 55

    old 55 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I feel that Obrien didn't use our running game effectively at all.
    We rarely used screen passes to the backs which, at one point in time, we were the standard for the league in how to run a screen play.
    It seemed to me that we'd run a certain type of running play effectively and then go to something else like a straight run up the middle against teams that were stacked against the run - I assume because of the formation we were showing.

    We have a great QB, but that doesn't mean we couldn't make his job easier by running smarter play calls and not trying to be so predictable on the running plays.
    It should also make it easier to protect Brady from an aggressive pass rushing team.

    Personnel wise..I believe BB likes BGE, but also thinks he could plug in a number of different backs with similar results.
    The 2 RBs from last year's draft will see more action this year as long as they are working on their blocking as well as their running.
    I don't see BB giving BGE a huge contract.
  5. micronin127

    micronin127 Rookie

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    BJGE is reliable and steady. Few negative plays. No fumbles. Decent receiver. Good blocker. That said, very few big plays (20+ yards) and his YPC is only 3.7. If it falls any lower, he's out of the league.

    I did like the way he started to elevate in goal line jumping over the pile near the end of the season.

    Would you want BJGE back at $2 million a year? I would, but not on a long-term contract.

    I wouldn't want to see them spend big money on a RB unless they have already added a few athletes to the defense. I would like to see a team with better balance, like 2003/2004, where the defense was the strength of the team and the offense just had to take care of the ball and score enough. In that world, BJGE is ideal because of ball security.
  6. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    BJGE is a #2 RB in a rotational system that also has a 3rd down back. That's all he is, yet he was the team's RB1 (Woodhead being the 3rd down back). Of course an upgrade is 'necessary'. The question is whether or not Ridley and/or Vereen can be that upgrade.

    BJGE would be well served to go to a team like the Chiefs, where they run the ball more and BJGE could get plenty of carries while softening up opponents for Jamaal Charles.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2012
  7. Banjo

    Banjo Rookie

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    BJGE has no upside whatsoever. I mean, you know what you get with him and you don't get much more. Next season has to be about Ridley & Vereen and making them a big part of the offense
  8. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    I know it was a different era, but take a look at Sam Cunningham's numbers before you rip Law Firm's too badly:

    Sam Cunningham NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

    Or Mike Alstott's

    Mike Alstott NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

    Here are BJGE's in the same format:

    BenJarvus Green-Ellis NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com
  9. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    And by the way, I think BJGE is good enough as a power back that he can be the backup guy in that role, not contribute on STs or as a blocking FB, and still be well worth the roster spot.
  10. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Pretty much this.
  11. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not so sure you have a very good argument if you have to go back 35 years to find 2 examples, and neither were the lead back on their team.
  12. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    They were the first two ball-carrying fullbacks who came to mind. I'm positioning BJGE as a power back/short yardage guy.
  13. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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  14. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I thought you were talking about his play so far. Really though there is no such role anymore as running FB.
    I don't think BJGE is going to accept the pay or the role that you have envisioned, although I'm pretty much in agreement thats our best role for him.
  15. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    While Law Firm doesnt do anything bad he doesnt do anything exceptionally good aside from his ball security, which is outstanding.

    He doesnt threaten the defense, he's very limited, he can go up the middle ok but doesnt break tackles very well, isn't a good receiver, and cannot threaten the edge.

    I can't help but think that with a more well-rounded and dynamic RB our offense would skyrocket. Once we got some nasty TEs we used them plenty in the pass game, before that the TEs weren't used much, I think our lack of talent at RB is the main reason we dont have a better running game. The coaches dont have faith in it, and for good reason.
  16. stcjones

    stcjones Rookie

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    Ridley has ball control issues and has been hot and cold in his chances. Vereen has been NONEXISTENT ...gather he was hurt several times and had ochoitis in NOT being able to comprehend the playbook. BJGE had turf toe i believe but played well....Woody was solid but they can't use him that much in 2012..,will have some durability issues....I think they'll go after at least one more RB. Its an area we need more consistency with...
  17. CheeseMonkeys

    CheeseMonkeys Rookie

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    I think the Patriots will either resign Green-ellis to a contract or sign a proven veteran through FA/Trade, then draft a RB later in the draft (rounds 4-7).
  18. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    BJGE is a 4.1-4.4 ypc RB (when healthy, toe hurt him majority of season), never fumbles, and is good in goalline/short yardage.

    He has no big play ability and is one of the least dynamic RBs out of the backfield.

    I agree with Deus, he'd be great with Charles for the Chiefs or Lesean Mccoy with Eagles.
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2012
  19. TommyBrady12

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    Ben Jarvus Green Ellis is not an NFL quality running back. At 3.9 yards a carry with a pretty decent offensive line, what do you expect from the pats running game? You put more pressure on Brady to carry the team, that's what happens. If Brady has a so-so day like the super bowl, there is no one else to take the load off him. no one.
  20. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Keep BJGE, you know exactly what you have and how to use him. Last year he was injured for a good part of the year due to "turf toe" so much of the sample from last year has to be thrown out... he has a nose for the end zone and his ball control is legendary.

    He will never lead that league in rushing, but is steady blue collar.. next year his role may diminish as Vereen and Ridley have served their apprenticeship, but if the price is right would definitely keep him.

    It is also obvious that he has a very good relationship with Mr. Kraft, who usually stays out of this stuff... but has some influence.
  21. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    This is completely meaningless. BJGE is the absolute last thing any defense facing the patriots is worried about. What happens if they totally ignore him, a 5 yard gain? Defenses are willing to concede that against the Patriots. Defenses were focused on stopping Cunningham and Alstott. Don't you see how that makes all the difference in the world?
  22. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A huge upgrade over Benny isn't necessary, but an upgrade would be helpful in taking the pressure off the passing game. Pass to score, run to win. Supposedly the Pats have an offer on the table for Benny but it's not one he is ready to consider until he tests the market. It's likely for about what he made on the RFA tender last year times 2-3 seasons. I think that would be about right for a guy who had to claw his way onto a 53 and stuck because he does all the little things (blocking, ball security, effort) well on a team that struggles to fill that committee spot.

    He's not a move the pile guy though and that's what they really need. Unfortunately most of those guys aren't affordable until they are entering their personal back 9, which for RB can be earlier and more problematic than even WR. Which is why so many teams have opted for more of a committee approach of late. Bill has tried to add that guy via FA more than once but his only success was Dillon and even that was short lived. Fred Taylor was supposed to be that guy 2.0 and he never really got on the field. It's a tough role to fill since guys who can know their clock is ticking faster than most and they want to maximize their earnings in a limited window.

    I don't think anyone will offer him substantially more than we are. KC might like his intangibles, but whether Scott will persue a NE FA Bill hopes to retain is another matter.
  23. robertweathers

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    I'm loving the thought Reiss had about Michael Bush. 27 years old. Fumbles once every 180 touches. 243 lbs. Can catch the ball out of the backfield and is a move the pile guy. Would be a nice addition and someone they can give carries to if Vereen and Ridley can't answer the bell.

    Just not sure what $ he wants makes sense for this team's offensive system.

    Clearly he'd be an upgrade over BJGE.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  24. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    Maybe, remember in Bush you have a back that will not pick up the blitz and offers about the same in the passing game,but will not help any on ST.

    Both Bush and Green Ellis are complimentary backs, unfortunately for us, we do not have the main RB. Ridley puts the rock on the turf too much, BB hates that and Vereen is ideally suited to be the kick off returner and maybe a compliment to Woodhead,if he ever learns to pick up the blitz.
  25. Whorod

    Whorod Rookie

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    I was at the game where Vereen got a chance to play (KC). He had a nice burst, and his combine numbers look solid compared to most of the RB class this year. I hope he gets a chance, and shows he can be a potential big play guy. The Pats need to show that if you ignore the run, they won't get 4 yards, but that on any given run, they could get 25. That would change the whole dynamic of this offense. I also agree that I really hope Josh decides to reintroduce the screen game to this offense. Brees gets so many easy 30 yard plays off of their screen game and play action designs. The Pats should take a page out of their book (I really miss Charlie Weis).
  26. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Meh. Blitz pickup is coaching. He catches the ball just fine for a 243 lb RB.

    Way too negative. Bush would be a clear upgrade over BJGE.

    Ridley showed promise last year and if he can correct the ball security issues, he'll be a stud.

    I don't think your assessment of Vereen is accurate. They drafted him to be a 100-150 carry guy who can handle kickoffs and punts and has superior physical talent to Woody.

    All in all, with both kids having a second year in the system the backfield in 2012 should be an instant upgrade from 2011.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  27. Joey007

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    All I know is, we need to improve our ground game in some way. I'm watching Pats-Colts 2006 AFCCG our ground game was solid back in those days with Dillon and with Maroney (he had a good rookie year, but that was it) so that was when Brady had the ground game to rely on and that's when he was a young player in the SB days. Now in Brady later years he needs the ground game that he can rely on like in the past.
  28. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually it wasn't. And to some extent I think the problem was systemic. After 2005 Bill knew he had a problem with the Dillon signing. Rather than replace him though he tried to salvage the signing by adopting the committee system, which in and of itself wasn't a bad plan except that Bill opted for divergent backs, thunder and lightening (who would be his home run hitter in space where Dillon was now useless). But the fact that old thunder was tapping out more and more and the fact that we couldn't really zone block effectively for lightening without unwieldy personnel swaps on OL and the emerging tendency we were adopting to use multiple skill personnel groupings while running all sets out of any of them led to the square peg round hole conundrum that was Maroney's early undoing as he got hurt doing Dillon's job along the goal line and in short yardage. They went through these maddeningly long in game stretches where I recall it always seemed they had the wrong guy on the field in given situations and seemed unable to reset the rotation. By the time the playoffs rolled around both guys were basically toast. 56 carries, 206 yards between the two of them in 3 games. 3.6 yard average. Just wasn't going to cut it.

    I think Bill is still hung up on the home run hitter when IMO what he really needs is the move the pile back and a decent backup which is what Benny could be. He's got the scat back to use in space although that guy is more quick than breakaway fast. I fear Riddley and Vareen are going to be redundant lightening bolts at best and if they can't secure the ball or block well enough to keep Tommy from getting killed they aren't going to be on the field enough to make the formula work. Which is kind of what we just witnessed.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  29. Daigle

    Daigle Rookie

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    Dont underestimate BJGE. Not droping the ball is actually really good. It worked 2010 but not this year. I think we didnt block as good as 2010 and part of that could be Koppen missing and Maybe Waters since I didnt see us running behind him that much.

    As I always say this year, better O-line is what we need. Cant have a good enough O-line.
  30. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    He could be upgraded, but not before

    - Getting a legit FS
    - Getting an impact DE
    - WR2 (hopefully Lloyd as has been discussed)

    Then I'd lump impact RB in with lower needs like

    -G/C in case Connolly/Waters don't return and Cannon isn't ready yet
    -OLB
    -CB if Dowling doesn't return healthy or if they decide to move McCourty to FS

    Some argue 2003 and 2007 among our best teams, if not they are definitely both top 3 and we had JAGS at RB both years. BJGE is better than both those RB's, he can be upgraded but it's far down the priority list IMO.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
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