Tyquan Thornton

[*ChungFu*]

I think you’ve hit on it. Brady was able to make chicken salad out of chicken feathers. He made everybody around him better, at least until he got spoiled and only wanted to throw to his favorites, so any WR that wasn’t favored by Brady didn’t get that improvement. And then things fell apart when Bill wasn’t bringing in the guys Brady wanted.

This is only partially true. When Brady came to camp he joined a lot of like-minded men; what is commonly disregarded as the patriot way these days. As TB honed and excelled at his craft if others didn't keep up they got swept up by veterans and either began to keep pace or got left behind. That push is no longer provided by the QB and is too thin in other areas or outright disregarded as outdated nonsense. BB is getting slammed for trying to rely on a system that worked with men that are less common now. Call it evolution, progress, manifest destiny....whatever. TB made guys that were willing to work HARD better. He didn't drag any bums along and was refreshingly less tolerant of unacceptable effort.

 

[n6249c]

This is only partially true. When Brady came to camp he joined a lot of like-minded men; what is commonly disregarded as the patriot way these days. As TB honed and excelled at his craft if others didn't keep up they got swept up by veterans and either began to keep pace or got left behind. That push is no longer provided by the QB and is too thin in other areas or outright disregarded as outdated nonsense. BB is getting slammed for trying to rely on a system that worked with men that are less common now. Call it evolution, progress, manifest destiny....whatever. TB made guys that were willing to work HARD better. He didn't drag any bums along and was refreshingly less tolerant of unacceptable effort.

You make some very good points. I’d phrase one thing a little differently. I’d say BB is getting slammed for trying to rely on a system that depends on leaders he doesn’t have now. I’m not sure they’re less common, but he had one that was unique in TB12. The Patriot Way made a magical Super Bowl win after Bledsoe’s injury, and for the next few years it worked as you described, as we all know. That was the First Dynasty of the Patriots.
Then there was a mini dry spell, starting when Brady was injured and they missed the playoffs. The next two years they lost in a wild card game and then in the divisional round, despite having Randy Moss giving Brady a stellar target.
It has seemed to me that something changed with Brady during that period, but your comments make me realize that things changed around him too. I’ve thought that Moss spoiled Brady, by giving him a taste of what it’s like to have a dominant talent at WR. After that Brady seemed to be much less interested in working with lesser talented receivers. Or your comments now have me wondering if it was more that he was not as patient with receivers who weren’t diligent enough in working to surpass the limits of their talent, and there wasn’t the same cadre of veteran leaders to reinforce the work ethic and model the Patriot Way. Regardless, whatever the reason, the Second Dynasty of the Patriots had different dynamics than the first. It was more elitist, not as egalitarian, with Brady playing his favorites and not working with those he didn’t favor, whereas in the First Dynasty no one was left out.
Anyway, Belichick has always been coaching the Patriot Way. He’s been consistent and steady on that, even as Brady evolved after his injury and playing with Moss. That‘s why they had to get divorced. Now Bill has been trying to rebuild using that same approach, but he’s not yet found a QB to be the leader he needs. I think he’s got some other players who can do it, but McCorkle Jones is not one of them. His character shows in some dirty plays on the field, and in the locker room it’s resulted in teammates clearly warming up to Zappe more than to Jones. Looking at the overall picture I think if Bill had found his QB the rest of the team would be significantly improved just by that change. We may not be just a QB away, but with the right QB we’d be a lot closer than we are now. Probably at least contending for a playoff slot, and then who knows…

 

[*ChungFu*]

You make some very good points. I’d phrase one thing a little differently. I’d say BB is getting slammed for trying to rely on a system that depends on leaders he doesn’t have now. I’m not sure they’re less common, but he had one that was unique in TB12. The Patriot Way made a magical Super Bowl win after Bledsoe’s injury, and for the next few years it worked as you described, as we all know. That was the First Dynasty of the Patriots.
Then there was a mini dry spell, starting when Brady was injured and they missed the playoffs. The next two years they lost in a wild card game and then in the divisional round, despite having Randy Moss giving Brady a stellar target.
It has seemed to me that something changed with Brady during that period, but your comments make me realize that things changed around him too. I’ve thought that Moss spoiled Brady, by giving him a taste of what it’s like to have a dominant talent at WR. After that Brady seemed to be much less interested in working with lesser talented receivers. Or your comments now have me wondering if it was more that he was not as patient with receivers who weren’t diligent enough in working to surpass the limits of their talent, and there wasn’t the same cadre of veteran leaders to reinforce the work ethic and model the Patriot Way. Regardless, whatever the reason, the Second Dynasty of the Patriots had different dynamics than the first. It was more elitist, not as egalitarian, with Brady playing his favorites and not working with those he didn’t favor, whereas in the First Dynasty no one was left out.
Anyway, Belichick has always been coaching the Patriot Way. He’s been consistent and steady on that, even as Brady evolved after his injury and playing with Moss. That‘s why they had to get divorced. Now Bill has been trying to rebuild using that same approach, but he’s not yet found a QB to be the leader he needs. I think he’s got some other players who can do it, but McCorkle Jones is not one of them. His character shows in some dirty plays on the field, and in the locker room it’s resulted in teammates clearly warming up to Zappe more than to Jones. Looking at the overall picture I think if Bill had found his QB the rest of the team would be significantly improved just by that change. We may not be just a QB away, but with the right QB we’d be a lot closer than we are now. Probably at least contending for a playoff slot, and then who knows…

All great points.

 

[RIpats88]

I think you’ve hit on it. Brady was able to make chicken salad out of chicken feathers. He made everybody around him better, at least until he got spoiled and only wanted to throw to his favorites, so any WR that wasn’t favored by Brady didn’t get that improvement. And then things fell apart when Bill wasn’t bringing in the guys Brady wanted.

I feel like this idea that brady was throwing to bums and making them into studs is very overplayed. he was better than most, but Brady struggled in 2006, 2013 throwing to thompkins/dobson and 2019 when he had sanu/ben watson.

his best years were throwing to the likes of moss, welker, gronk, edelman, mike evans, godwin...all talented players. not to say he didn't make them better. but its a disservice to act like their talent levels had nothing to do with their own hard work.

its not like any of the guys like dobson, N'keal harry ever performed anywhere else or would've become studs if brady spent more time throwing to them. they were trash evaluations.

 

[archstanton543]

You make some very good points. I’d phrase one thing a little differently. I’d say BB is getting slammed for trying to rely on a system that depends on leaders he doesn’t have now. I’m not sure they’re less common, but he had one that was unique in TB12. The Patriot Way made a magical Super Bowl win after Bledsoe’s injury, and for the next few years it worked as you described, as we all know. That was the First Dynasty of the Patriots.
Then there was a mini dry spell, starting when Brady was injured and they missed the playoffs. The next two years they lost in a wild card game and then in the divisional round, despite having Randy Moss giving Brady a stellar target.
It has seemed to me that something changed with Brady during that period, but your comments make me realize that things changed around him too. I’ve thought that Moss spoiled Brady, by giving him a taste of what it’s like to have a dominant talent at WR. After that Brady seemed to be much less interested in working with lesser talented receivers. Or your comments now have me wondering if it was more that he was not as patient with receivers who weren’t diligent enough in working to surpass the limits of their talent, and there wasn’t the same cadre of veteran leaders to reinforce the work ethic and model the Patriot Way. Regardless, whatever the reason, the Second Dynasty of the Patriots had different dynamics than the first. It was more elitist, not as egalitarian, with Brady playing his favorites and not working with those he didn’t favor, whereas in the First Dynasty no one was left out.
Anyway, Belichick has always been coaching the Patriot Way. He’s been consistent and steady on that, even as Brady evolved after his injury and playing with Moss. That‘s why they had to get divorced. Now Bill has been trying to rebuild using that same approach, but he’s not yet found a QB to be the leader he needs. I think he’s got some other players who can do it, but McCorkle Jones is not one of them. His character shows in some dirty plays on the field, and in the locker room it’s resulted in teammates clearly warming up to Zappe more than to Jones. Looking at the overall picture I think if Bill had found his QB the rest of the team would be significantly improved just by that change. We may not be just a QB away, but with the right QB we’d be a lot closer than we are now. Probably at least contending for a playoff slot, and then who knows…

If your system requires a generational talent as a leader and QB to make your system work, it's not that great of a system. BB will be long gone before the Pats find another Tom Brady-esque player...hell, most of us here might be too.

 

[n6249c]

If your system requires a generational talent as a leader and QB to make your system work, it's not that great of a system. BB will be long gone before the Pats find another Tom Brady-esque player...hell, most of us here might be too.

That system, like other NFL systems, requires a good QB plus other good players providing leadership in the locker room.

It’s the same argument, er discussion, we’re having in other threads: are we just a QB away, or are lacks at other positions as much or more of a problem? The difference is what traits are required and lacking. Some say it’s stellar athletic talent and if we had another Randy Moss our WR problems would be fixed. I’m saying that’s not what‘s missing, we didn’t win with Randy and he wouldn’t fix what’s wrong now.

what‘s lacking is what was called the Patriot Way, the leadership and commitment and obsession by each and every player with doing everything possible to improve individually and to work together to bring out the best in each other. The QB needs to be the leader in the locker room and the weight room and the training room, and he needs other strong leaders to reinforce the behavior. I’m saying we have the other leaders, we lack that QB. The fact that the rest of the players obviously respond better to Zappe than to Jones shows that McCorkle is not The Guy.

 

[archstanton543]

what‘s lacking is what was called the Patriot Way, the leadership and commitment and obsession by each and every player with doing everything possible to improve individually and to work together to bring out the best in each other. The QB needs to be the leader in the locker room and the weight room and the training room, and he needs other strong leaders to reinforce the behavior. I’m saying we have the other leaders, we lack that QB. The fact that the rest of the players obviously respond better to Zappe than to Jones shows that McCorkle is not The Guy.

How many time have we heard players say Mac practically lives at 1 Patriot Place? First guy in. Last guy out. And all that. He's doing the right things off the field but it's not translating on Game Day mainly due to lack of talent around him giving him the yips.

 

[upstater1]

How many time have we heard players say Mac practically lives at 1 Patriot Place? First guy in. Last guy out. And all that. He's doing the right things off the field but it's not translating on Game Day mainly due to lack of talent around him giving him the yips.

 

[upstater1]

That system, like other NFL systems, requires a good QB plus other good players providing leadership in the locker room.

It’s the same argument, er discussion, we’re having in other threads: are we just a QB away, or are lacks at other positions as much or more of a problem? The difference is what traits are required and lacking. Some say it’s stellar athletic talent and if we had another Randy Moss our WR problems would be fixed. I’m saying that’s not what‘s missing, we didn’t win with Randy and he wouldn’t fix what’s wrong now.

what‘s lacking is what was called the Patriot Way, the leadership and commitment and obsession by each and every player with doing everything possible to improve individually and to work together to bring out the best in each other. The QB needs to be the leader in the locker room and the weight room and the training room, and he needs other strong leaders to reinforce the behavior. I’m saying we have the other leaders, we lack that QB. The fact that the rest of the players obviously respond better to Zappe than to Jones shows that McCorkle is not The Guy.

Bills run the same system; it was the one that Daboll installed. Nothing much to it really than find space, take what they're giving. When Daboll was there, they ripped teams apart with it. Then he left and Dorsey was looking for more of a downfield Arians type system. They sucked. They fired Dorsey and had 2 big wins with their offense motoring. The short game is back, players are moving into open space. Defenses are now once again unbalanced. The Buffalo game coming up is going to be against a completely different team than the one we faced earlier. This is SYSTEMIC change. All the players are the same.

 

[Toofy]

Bills run the same system; it was the one that Daboll installed. Nothing much to it really than find space, take what they're giving. When Daboll was there, they ripped teams apart with it. Then he left and Dorsey was looking for more of a downfield Arians type system. They sucked. They fired Dorsey and had 2 big wins with their offense motoring. The short game is back, players are moving into open space. Defenses are now once again unbalanced. The Buffalo game coming up is going to be against a completely different team than the one we faced earlier. This is SYSTEMIC change. All the players are the same.

I thought rams game plan yesterday was phenomenal . Stafford drops back 3 steps scans field thrice and shoots a dart. Puka nacua is looking terrific, much better version of Kupp .

Now why haven't we drafted somebody remotely as talented as puka in last decade. 10 years not a single noteworthy all world talent .

 

[n6249c]

How many time have we heard players say Mac practically lives at 1 Patriot Place? First guy in. Last guy out. And all that. He's doing the right things off the field but it's not translating on Game Day mainly due to lack of talent around him giving him the yips.

Although whatever he’s doing is obviously not winning the enthusiasm of his teammates the way Zappe has.

 

[denverpatsfan]

Looking fotward to TTs breakout game here at Mile High on Sunday night.

 

[RIpats88]

I think it is fair to question the patriots offensive system with multiple different route combinations based on the defense and requiring the QB/WR to make those same reads. it's only worked with one guy. a super-computer in Tom brady.

the Belichick coaching tree has been a disaster and failed everywhere trying to implement the same offense.

compare that to the shanahan offense which has flourished everywhere its been implemented basically. turning guys like Purdy/Tua into looking like good QB's. and I mean Jimmy G looked great in san fran for awhile too...just too injury prone.

 

[RIpats88]

The period between Dobson and Tyquan proves your point in particular.

You can't go an entire decade by taking just 1 WR in the first 3 rounds (Harry).

Most Patriot fans might be shocked to learn that if Demario Douglas pans out, we'll be at the league average for hitting on WRs. If Boutte pans out, we'll be above.

The problem is that Bill still is just kind of treating the position as an afterthought when it should be a priority to replace what Gronkowski brought to the team. meaning an offensive mis-match that teams had to gameplan for and made everyone better.

when you realize we have NOT had a true offensive talent since gronk retired, thats 5 seasons. thats almost unheard of in the NFL. Douglas should be a nice player and maybe a good slot option. we still need another guy. maybe its Tee higgins idk.

 

[Uptown]

 

[upstater1]

The problem is that Bill still is just kind of treating the position as an afterthought when it should be a priority to replace what Gronkowski brought to the team. meaning an offensive mis-match that teams had to gameplan for and made everyone better.

when you realize we have NOT had a true offensive talent since gronk retired, thats 5 seasons. thats almost unheard of in the NFL. Douglas should be a nice player and maybe a good slot option. we still need another guy. maybe its Tee higgins idk.

But his charge the last 5 years has been rebuilding. We don't know that he still values it less. He certainly did during the Brady years, at least that's what I've been arguing. But you look at Harry, Tyquan, Demario and Boutte, then the FAs in Gesicki, Henry, Jonnu Smith, Algholor, Bourne, Parker. They have expended more resources at pass catching positions in 5 years than they expended in the previous 15. And what about the offensive line in this rebuilding period: Onwenu, Froholdt, Hines, Sow, Mafi, Andrews, Strange. Huge amount of resources.

But building from the ground up means you're also looking for difference makers like Gonzalez, Barmore and Keion White. It's the wrong approach to draft for needs. In fact, the times we clearly drafted for needs (Mac Jones, Tyquan, Strange) the results have been suboptimal. When we've sat back and taken the highest rated players on the board, they've been big hits.

 

[n6249c]

….
But building from the ground up means you're also looking for difference makers like Gonzalez, Barmore and Keion White. It's the wrong approach to draft for needs. In fact, the times we clearly drafted for needs (Mac Jones, Tyquan, Strange) the results have been suboptimal. When we've sat back and taken the highest rated players on the board, they've been big hits.

But folks on here say we need a QB so we must draft a QB

even though we tried that with McCorkle Jones, and look how that worked out.

 

[UGAPatsfan]

How many time have we heard players say Mac practically lives at 1 Patriot Place? First guy in. Last guy out. And all that. He's doing the right things off the field but it's not translating on Game Day mainly due to lack of talent around him giving him the yips.

All of this is true but there is something missing…

It is also true that Mac’s makeup isn’t great. Just doesn’t have the grit and mental toughness you want in QB1. Mentally weak.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

But folks on here say we need a QB so we must draft a QB

even though we tried that with McCorkle Jones, and look how that worked out.

That was #15 in a not-so-great QB class, this year may be different, and we might be #2 or #3.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

That was #15 in a not-so-great QB class, this year may be different, and we might be #2 or #3.

In hindsight 2021 was a not-so-great QB class. At the time it was thought to be a great year for QB's with so many drafted in the first round. It would be good to know if the Pats thought Mac was the guy, or felt he was a good value/best available at 15.