Tom Brady, NFLPA Granted 14-Day Extension To File Motion For Rehearing By Second Circuit Court

[varjao]

@Ian we need an emoticon like this

 

[Tony2046]

There is evidence. The "big needle". The "deflator", the "pressure to them them done", the bathroom break, the ridiculous explanations given by McNally about being under pressure to unload 50-yd line tickets. Add it up, and it's not a lot, but it is something. If Goodell looks at that stuff and determined that something happened, then he can punish Brady under the CBA. End of story. It's why most legal experts have given Brady little shot in this case. The standard to "convict" is really in the eye of Jolly Roger. The players knew Roger was going to interpret the CBA this way and did little to limit his power, choosing a greater percentage of revenue. So, here we are.

Btw, our justice system may be corrupt, but not because of this case. This horrible system of "justice" at the NFL was bargained for by the players. They could've fought at the negotiating table for independent arbitration, but it would have meant giving up a few dollars. So they chose to benefit the many at the expense of the few that would become subject to the NFL's justice system. Sucks for those that become subject to discipline, but not unjust, because the players had every opportunity to insist on a better system.

From my understanding there is a limit to the authority a CBA can grant. For example an arbitrator cannot issue the death sentence for a 'player conduct violation' even if it is written into the CBA. So things like "good faith" , "fundamental fairness" and "law of the land" are all in play during an appeal regardless of who the arbitrator is.

Do you think Roger was fair or do you think he abused his position? He and the NFL have definitely not acted in good faith.

1. Sure the "independant" Well's report presents a suspicious picture with some curious circumstantial evidence. "Deflator", "bathroom" , " tickets" whatever. Great. I accept that they are curious.

So let's get some more details during Brady's appeal to the NFL. "Hey Pash, we have some questions about your editing" Nope. Sorry he is not available for questioning.

OK. Well. Can we see the notes taken during the investigation to see if there is anything that might give any of those "curious" events a broader perspective? Nope. They are not available for review. OK Great.

2. After the appeal we learn that although the NFL had released a statement that stated the NFLPA wanted to keep the appeal transcripts sealed that it was actually the NFL who wanted them sealed and the NFLPA wanted them released to the public) Why lie about that?

NFLPA wanted Tom Brady appeal transcript released, NFL declined (<< Link)






Goodell:

“Mr. Brady testified that he was unable to recall any specifics of those discussions and he suggested that their principal subject was preparation of game balls for the Super Bowl.”






Regarding the Phone: (Goodell later stated that it was too much effort to research each log)

Why would someone turn over all their phone logs including text messages if they were guilty?

BTW: Ironically Goodell asks Brady if he has multiple phones. (Goodell does and only turned over his company phone during Mueller's investigations )

 

[upstater1]

1. Since you were using hypothetical figures, I did not think we were talking about a world bound by the Wells Report. I thought you were asking me for possibilities about what might have actually happened, assuming a .1 psi difference. I certainly don't take the officials' word as gospel. Their heads were on the chopping block too. That being said, even if the officials gauged the balls, there is enough variability from reading to reading that they were likely not all 12.5.

2. Show me in the Wells/Exponent Report where it says the balls were .1 (or .23, which is another number I have seen bandied about here) off from where they should have been. I would be most interested to see this. Since everyone on this board has told me that this information is in the Wells/Exponent Report it should be the easiest thing in the world to copy into a message and send to me.

3. I find it very unlikely that McNally went to the bathroom to take out 0.1 psi. Still possible though, especially because he is a moron.

The calculated number of a 12.5 PSI ball with a 24 degree drop (72 to 48) is 12.35. That's without accounting for evaporative cooling. Go look up the actual ball measures.

You are totally wrong on this.

The refs said 12.5. The NFL said 12.5. Exponent said 12.5

Why in the world are you trying to make this WORSE for the Patriots than even what the NFL is claiming?

 

[Tony2046]

I really don't understand any of this. The transient curve analysis is very flawed per the MIT prof, and I accept his opinion. My questions all along have not been on the transient analysis, but on the experimental results, shown as dots on Tables 29 and 30, then comparing those with the straight lines on those tables, representing the averages of the actual measurements of the Pats and Colts footballs at the AFCCG. There is an obvious discrepancy there which I haven't seen explained by the MIT prof or anyone else.

Because the charts should look like this. Plotting Master Gauge readings on a Logo or Non Logo set chart will not allow to conclude anything other than your chart is flawed.

Wells Report Mistakes Affect Outcome (<<Link)

 

[letekro]

So simplify the equation.

Do we have any data that doesn't involve footballs heating/regaining equilibrium?

We do:

The football the Colts intercepted was measured 3 times: 11.45, 11.35 and 11.75 psi (.3 psi variance between 3 measurements)

Exponent predicts the Patriot footballs should have been between 11.52 and 11.32 psi...


So why again would the Patriots have this diabolic plan to deflate footballs after inspection and not avail themselves of the opportunity to use a deflated-easier-to-grip-less-likely-to-fumble football when they know they needed it most?

If that football was measured outside, that is indeed great evidence that that ball was not deflated. Is that the case? Or was it measured inside at halftime?

Stop saying that Exponent predicted the balls to be between 11.52 and 11.32, you are confusing everyone here.

 

[letekro]

Because the charts should look like this. Plotting Master Gauge readings on a Logo or Non Logo set chart will not allow to conclude anything other than your chart is flawed.

Wells Report Mistakes Affect Outcome (<<Link)


View attachment 13054

Tony, these are transient curves. I"m talking about the raw data on tables 29 and 30. If I am missing your point, fill me in.

Edit: LOL @Wheelman.

 

[Danger Zone]

If that football was measured outside, that is indeed great evidence that that ball was not deflated. Is that the case? Or was it measured inside at halftime?

Stop saying that Exponent predicted the balls to be between 11.52 and 11.32, you are confusing everyone here.

Wells’ report noted that, “During the second quarter of the AFC Championship Game, a ball thrown by Tom Brady was intercepted by a player for the Colts and the ball was taken to the Colts sideline. On the sideline, Colts equipment personnel used a pressure gauge to measure the inflation level of the ball, determined that it was below the minimum 12.5 psi level and informed a game official and other NFL personnel.”

 

[letekro]

Wells’ report noted that, “During the second quarter of the AFC Championship Game, a ball thrown by Tom Brady was intercepted by a player for the Colts and the ball was taken to the Colts sideline. On the sideline, Colts equipment personnel used a pressure gauge to measure the inflation level of the ball, determined that it was below the minimum 12.5 psi level and informed a game official and other NFL personnel.”

That does not say the three measurements you gave came from the Colts personnel. I think what happened is that the ball was turned over to the NFL and the NFL measured the ball inside like it did with the rest of the balls. If so, not as great a piece of evidence as if it was measured outside.

 

[letekro]

Have to run. If someone could show me where the Wells/Exponent Report says the IGL predicted the balls to be at 11.32-11.52 I would greatly appreciate it. I suspect what you will find is that the balls were expected to be between 11.32 and 11.52 OUTSIDE AT THE END OF THE FIRST HALF. psi would have rapidly risen while inside, significantly widening the gap between the average of the Patriots balls and the values predicted by the IGL (yes very wet balls would have slowed this increase, but this variable is unknown--BU professor Schmaltz says "negligble", NFL says very minimal, carnegie mellon guy says significant, but he dunked the football in a bucket of water).

 

[Danger Zone]

That does not say the three measurements you gave came from the Colts personnel. I think what happened is that the ball was turned over to the NFL and the NFL measured the ball inside like it did with the rest of the balls. If so, not as great a piece of evidence as if it was measured outside.

Quoted from the Wells Report itself..
During the second quarter of the AFC Championship Game, a ball thrown by
Tom Brady was intercepted by a player for the Colts and the ball was taken to the
Colts sideline. On the sideline, Colts equipment personnel used a pressure gauge
to measure the inflation level of the ball, determined that it was below the
minimum 12.5 psi level and informed a game official and other NFL personnel.
Prior to the game, Colts personnel had notified the NFL that they suspected that
the Patriots might be deflating game balls below the minimum level permissible
under the Playing Rules, although they did not support their suspicions with any

 

[letekro]

Quoted from the Wells Report itself..
During the second quarter of the AFC Championship Game, a ball thrown by
Tom Brady was intercepted by a player for the Colts and the ball was taken to the
Colts sideline. On the sideline, Colts equipment personnel used a pressure gauge
to measure the inflation level of the ball, determined that it was below the
minimum 12.5 psi level and informed a game official and other NFL personnel.
Prior to the game, Colts personnel had notified the NFL that they suspected that
the Patriots might be deflating game balls below the minimum level permissible
under the Playing Rules, although they did not support their suspicions with any

That does not say that the 11.45, 11.75 measurements came from the Colts. It just says they measured it and it came in below 12.5. Then they turned it over to the NFL. You may be right, but your quoted paragraph doesn't say what you say it does.

 

[Ring 6]

Chart 29 and 30 are meaningless. They are experiments to show the expected increase in psi due to warming but totally make up the time frames. They assume that the refs measured the pats balls then measured the colts balls then added air. But they never finished measuring the colts balls.
This is like trating how much psi would drop on a cold day without knowing what the temperature was and making it up.
If they did an experiment showing how much psi dropped going from 65 degrees to 61 degrees and put a chart in about it you apparently would call that damning evidence.

 

[Angelpats]

If that football was measured outside, that is indeed great evidence that that ball was not deflated. Is that the case? Or was it measured inside at halftime?

Stop saying that Exponent predicted the balls to be between 11.52 and 11.32, you are confusing everyone here.

I have read that part too about the predicted air pressure being in that range. I think it said expected psi. I think what you fail to grasp is that the ideal gas law gives you concrete proof that air pressure can decrease when it gets colder out. So.. When the commissioner and the wells report states that they have no direct evidence of tampering and in your face dangles this IGL golden nugget that can at least explain the drop in psi why not acknowledge it as a valid reason than convict a man when you have no direct proof of anything happening.

And this predicted/expected range you are concerned with is below the limit of the NFL psi measurements. That in itself should let any logical person know that cold temps drops psi without even referring to any more lab experiments. If you are still concerned about this just read what engineering and physics professors have said about this topic and submitted to court. They do all the work for you so you only need to read and they are much less biased than the wells report, especially when you consider the NFL donated $30million to fund CTE research but pulled half of it away when their doctors weren't allowed to conduct the study.

 

[Tony2046]

oh dear lord.....so than with this logic the Colts can't be ruled out for tampering with their balls since they were under the 12.5 also.

That's not his argument.

He is saying that Fraudger has enough evidence , regardless of how nefarious it is, to suspend Brady under the current structure of the CBA. IOW, Rodger wanted to suspend Brady and acquired enough crappy circumstantial and scientific evidence, by whatever means, to do so. So we are left with the hopes that some judge will grant an en banc hearing and decide whether or not Roger overstepped his authority.

He is playing the Devil's advocate. Or at least I hope he is. haha

Personally it is clear to me that beyond any reasonable doubt that Brady did not ask anyone to deflate any footballs for a competitive advantage. That should have been clear to Roger/NFL the minute they realized the IGL was a real thing and that it was a LAW and not a Theory.

It is also clear to me that the NFL was not comfortable with the overall conclusions of the Well's report and resorted to numerous known and maybe still unknown tactics to reinforce public opinion in support of the Wells report and the "cheating" allegations. PR campaigns, lies, lack of transparency etc....

It is also clear to me that they expected Brady to fold a long long long time ago. They messed with the wrong dude. Man I hope the right guy wins this battle. It would be possibly be a greater victory than the battle of Thermopylae.

 

[bbobbo]

in today's amicus brief filed by the patriots:

However, as the Exponent Report stated, science fully explains the Patriots halftime PSI numbers depending on when, during halftime, officials measured the PSI of the footballs. The Wells Report conceded that “[t]he analysis of the data is ultimately dependent on assumptions and information that is uncertain” and that “varying the applicable assumptions can have a material impact on the ultimate conclusions.”

The timing of PSI measurements during halftime is, therefore, critical. Paul Weiss interviewed the seven witnesses to the halftime PSI gauging of Patriots and Colts footballs, all of whom are League employees. Nowhere does the Wells Report reveal what any of those witnesses said about when during halftime the gauging began, how long it took, or when it ended. Paul Weiss simply told Exponent what assumptions to make about the timing of these halftime events. These timing assumptions fell outside the parameters Exponent concluded would provide a scientific basis for the PSI. Consequently, the most basic premise of the Wells Report turned on assumptions provided by Paul Weiss on issues about which Paul Weiss interviewed seven League witnesses.

The only way Mr. Brady’s counsel could test the timing assumptions that Paul Weiss directed Exponent to follow was to obtain the notes of those interviews. The Commissioner denied that discovery. That left Mr. Brady unable to challenge the fundamental premise of the Wells Report: that science alone does not explain the PSI of the Patriots footballs. This unfairness fell only on Mr. Brady, since the League not only had access to the notes but actually used as counsel in Mr. Brady’s appeal hearing one of the Paul Weiss lawyers who conducted the very interviews at issue.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

why all of amicus briefs all of a sudden? i didn't see as many prior to the panel hearing. i wonder if olsen got all these parties to file them.

 

[turkeyneck]

THIS

On the sideline, Colts equipment personnel used a pressure gauge
to measure the inflation level of the ball

is the only documented illegal tampering of any ball involved in the game.

 

[signbabybrady]

So your theory is that McNall/Jaz or the refs over-inflated the balls?

NFL/Refs intentionally over inflated. McNally deflates to 12.5. NFL lies that they checked and were at 12.5 while also knowing the only reason they were there at 12.5 was due to deflation. Hence why the science doesn't work for them but they still know deflation occurred. And is why they are so stubborn over air it's not really the air but that we stopped them in their tracks. Also would explain silence from Jaz and McNally. Again and Brady had no clue to any of this.

 

[RobertWeathers]

NFL/Refs intentionally over inflated. McNally deflates to 12.5. NFL lies that they checked and were at 12.5 while also knowing the only reason they were there at 12.5 was due to deflation. Hence why the science doesn't work for them but they still know deflation occurred. And is why they are so stubborn over air it's not really the air but that we stopped them in their tracks. Also would explain silence from Jaz and McNally. Again and Brady had no clue to any of this.

Interesting theory. I don't think it's preposterous but you might be giving the refs and the league a little too much credit for hatching a diabolical scheme as collectively I swear they can barely put batteries in a flashlight

 

[RobertWeathers]

@Ian we need an emoticon like this

What would it mean?

"I'm done talking"

"You, my friend are a meathead"

"Go away"