The "Need" For Upgrade In the Secondary?

[Box_O_Rocks]

Wasn't Chung supposed to be the top safety who could come in and call the plays after a year?

Why do believe that a 3rd round talent would be good enough to replace Snaders in that role?

I do find it mildly amusing that half the board would like to see Sanders cut and the other half understands that he is a critical part of our defense.
==========

BTW, we could have a corner on the team who caould call plays for the secondary.

Given that safety is the key communication piece in the Pats secondary and only Sanders can currently get the Pats lined up correctly on any given play, I see safety as a huge priority in the 2011 draft.

The point may be moot with a newly signed 6' 200 CB whom some draftynikkers felt had more potential at FS.

Chung started off well, but I think Meriweather was expected to be the field general for the secondary. With Bodden at one corner there would have been some decent experience in the secondary, but alas for Leigh. Meriweather started circling the drain early, and Sanders once again stepped in to settle things down with a STs Ace and a rookie plugged in at CB. Since then Chung has been injured and the defense has adapted to a new role for him, Meriweather had his $50K wake-up call and is playing better. I'd say Sanders is clearly the "old man" who rallied that unit, I think the way BB was all over him after he closed down the Indy game that we are seeing one of BB's key leaders.

Back in September I had argued for Safety to be the highest priority position in the 2011 draft, the most that has changed is NE has reacquired Ventrone, and acquired Page and Jackson, increasing the pool of DBs whom NE has first dibs on in the offseason. The need to draft a Safety to groom on STs or the PSquad isn't as great as it was in September, but the opportunity to upgrade one of the reserve positions in the event Meriweather isn't retained shouldn't be discounted. With Butler working back into the CB mix, Arrington playing well above what we could have expected, Bodden returning, Wilhite having a good year in the slot, and of course McCourty, Safety still would seem to be ahead of CB as a priority.

RB has passed S on my highest priority list, but it's still a strong #2.

 

[mgteich]

Since none of the OL positions are in your top 2, are you presuming that
1) we will re-sign Light
2) we will re-sign Mankins
3) preparing to replace Koppen in 2012 is not a major concern

BTW, I'm fine with spending what it takes to re-sign Light, re-sign Mankins and extending Koppen.
Even then, I would want to draft a RG and/or a center.

The point may be moot with a newly signed 6' 200 CB whom some draftynikkers felt had more potential at FS.

Chung started off well, but I think Meriweather was expected to be the field general for the secondary. With Bodden at one corner there would have been some decent experience in the secondary, but alas for Leigh. Meriweather started circling the drain early, and Sanders once again stepped in to settle things down with a STs Ace and a rookie plugged in at CB. Since then Chung has been injured and the defense has adapted to a new role for him, Meriweather had his $50K wake-up call and is playing better. I'd say Sanders is clearly the "old man" who rallied that unit, I think the way BB was all over him after he closed down the Indy game that we are seeing one of BB's key leaders.

Back in September I had argued for Safety to be the highest priority position in the 2011 draft, the most that has changed is NE has reacquired Ventrone, and acquired Page and Jackson, increasing the pool of DBs whom NE has first dibs on in the offseason. The need to draft a Safety to groom on STs or the PSquad isn't as great as it was in September, but the opportunity to upgrade one of the reserve positions in the event Meriweather isn't retained shouldn't be discounted. With Butler working back into the CB mix, Arrington playing well above what we could have expected, Bodden returning, Wilhite having a good year in the slot, and of course McCourty, Safety still would seem to be ahead of CB as a priority.

RB has passed S on my highest priority list, but it's still a strong #2.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Since none of the OL positions are in your top 2, are you presuming that
1) we will re-sign Light
2) we will re-sign Mankins
3) preparing to replace Koppen in 2012 is not a major concern

BTW, I'm fine with spending what it takes to re-sign Light, re-sign Mankins and extending Koppen.
Even then, I would want to draft a RG and/or a center.

I'm not particularly worried about O-Line, at the moment five of five positions are covered by proven starters signed through 2011 (Koppen, Neal, Vollmer, Kaczur, and Connolly). Obviously Neal's health is a significant issue, but BB went all out to retain OL this season, assuming no one drops out before the regular season NE already has one Swing Tackle reserve, two OG reserves, and one reserve Center (plus Connolly) - and that's before counting the two on the PSquad who will likely be re-signed to a futures contract.

Does that mean BB skips the OL in this draft? I doubt it, I expect at least one OG/OT prospect and another OC/OG, but it's not that urgent. NE gets first crack at re-signing Light, Mankins, and Ojinnaka. What me worry?

 

[patfanken]

I agree but i really thought that Butler would be more then a nickel CB.

More than a nickel CB???? Oftens time the "nickel back" is going to get more snaps than your "starting" LB or DLman. That's like thinking the slot back is a secondary receiver position on THIS offense.

Nickel back or slot CB is a critical position in today's NFL defense. I'd be THRILLED if Butler turns out to be a top "nickel" CB

 

[patfanken]

Since none of the OL positions are in your top 2, are you presuming that
1) we will re-sign Light
2) we will re-sign Mankins
3) preparing to replace Koppen in 2012 is not a major concern

BTW, I'm fine with spending what it takes to re-sign Light, re-sign Mankins and extending Koppen.
Even then, I would want to draft a RG and/or a center.

It is going to be interesting in how we deal with the OL situation. There are a lot of ways to go. Personally I think we are going to retain ONE of the 2 FAs, either Light or Mankins.

My thinking would be that in this draft, it will be EASIER to replace Mankins at G, than Light at LT. Its just that simple. You are more likely to find an impact LG, than an impact LT in the draft where we will be drafting, AND the value to get him would be less as well. Top notch LT prospects are going to go higher than G's. Plus there is the money you save not having to resign Mankins.

If they keep Mankins then I think Light is gone. You move Volmer to LT and either Kazcur or some Rookie RT comes in.

BB has invested heavily in his 2 lines. He seems to be developing a lot of young DL depth this season. They all seem to be adequate, but I don't know how much upside BB thinks they have. Can Deadrick, Brace, Pryor, or Love develop into more than capable NFL DLmen? If he thinks one of them can, and with a healthy Ty Warren coming back, he may decide to pass on a DLman at the top of the draft, despite the fact that all past history would make it seem that the best 3-4 DE in the draft is headed to NE.

But the fact that there are so many of them, makes me think that any top end draft picks will be more likely to be OL than DL. Since you are going to have to replace Neal as well. I think that shoulder is a chronic problem that just isn't going to get better. I think Stephen is ready to move on to his MMA career. I can already hear the hype on a rematch between him and Lesner

 

[West Philly Patriot]

The little I have read and seen of Mark Barron say this guy will not make it to the 3rd round.

On top of that he is a SS not a FS. If replacing meriweather due to FA is the goal don't see how this guy is the answer there. I like what ive seen but i think he brings a skill set closer to chung than to meriweather.

There are obviously more knowledgeable posters here than I just my .002

 

[patchick]

My thinking would be that in this draft, it will be EASIER to replace Mankins at G, than Light at LT. Its just that simple. You are more likely to find an impact LG, than an impact LT in the draft where we will be drafting, AND the value to get him would be less as well. Top notch LT prospects are going to go higher than G's. Plus there is the money you save not having to resign Mankins.

If they keep Mankins then I think Light is gone. You move Volmer to LT and either Kazcur or some Rookie RT comes in.

It seems to me that the 2 sentences in bold offset each other. OTs may be harder to find in the draft, but they're easier to find on the roster.

I'm assuming that Neal retires, giving the team 2 starting guard spots to fill with an existing roster of
Connolly
Wendell
Ohrnberger

vs. 2 tackle spots to fill with
Vollmer
Kaczur
LeVoir
Maneri

That latter looks tons better to me. What's more, Mankins is the only OG I can ever recall starting as a rookie under Belichick, and he was a 1st-round pick who was a 4-year starting tackle in college playing for a BB crony. I'd hate to rely on finding an instant LG starter in this draft -- you'd probably be looking at somebody like Nate Potter from Boise St. or Danny Watkins from Baylor? Yikes.

 

[rookBoston]

I like this thread. Cogent discussion.

I also have a lot of confidence in our secondary. It's biggest weakness is that it's young, which is not something you solve for in the draft. Clearly, McCourty and Chung are top young talent and I'm very excited about them as cornerstones for a decade of Pats championship runs.

I have a lot of confidence in Meriweather, but I agree with the sentiment that BB will not break the bank to re-sign him once his rookie contract comes up... he'll make a fair and moderate offer and see if any team comes over the top. This is not because I dont think Meriweather is a smart, instinctive and hard hitting safety-- he is-- but he hasn't become the leader in the defensive backfield that I think BB was hoping for at the position. The only thing missing is one of those intangibles that is hard to draft for, that you only see after you really get to know the person behind the player. Whatever it is, McCourty and Chung have it, and I'm not sure Meriweather does. Actually, it may be self-confidence. For those who've posted that "Meriweather is horrible at X", I think you're being unreasonable. He actually does everything pretty well.

I don't consider secondary a draft need in any way. Our starters are really good, and depth is good. Age is good. Speed is good. Physicality is good. That said, there's always room to add more competition, so if another McCourty is the BPA at any spot in the draft, I dont think BB would hesitate to spend the pick there and turn the secondary into a real defensive weapon for the team.

And remember, DBs make some of the best ST players too... always important.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The little I have read and seen of Mark Barron say this guy will not make it to the 3rd round.

On top of that he is a SS not a FS. If replacing meriweather due to FA is the goal don't see how this guy is the answer there. I like what ive seen but i think he brings a skill set closer to chung than to meriweather.

There are obviously more knowledgeable posters here than I just my .002

I am beginning to think that the old definitions of safeties does not work in BB's defense. In BB's defense both safeties have to have elements of SS and FS in their abilities. Both must be able to come up quickly on run support and both must be cover and play zone.

Alabama put Barron on Jeffries for the SC game and except for two unbelievable catches by Jeffries, Barron did an amazing job on one of the countries best WR's. There is no doubt in my mind that Barron will need a red shirt year.

But because he is starting with three years in a system remarkably similar to ours, he really does have a head start much like Randall Gay had when he came out of LSU.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Wasn't Chung supposed to be the top safety who could come in and call the plays after a year?

Why do believe that a 3rd round talent would be good enough to replace Snaders in that role?

I do find it mildly amusing that half the board would like to see Sanders cut and the other half understands that he is a critical part of our defense.
==========

BTW, we could have a corner on the team who caould call plays for the secondary.

Given that safety is the key communication piece in the Pats secondary and only Sanders can currently get the Pats lined up correctly on any given play, I see safety as a huge priority in the 2011 draft.

Here is the rub with Sanders. Yes he has complete command of the secondary calls and is a complete film junkie that studies more in one week than Merriweather will for a whole season.

But Sanders is limited in ability and rarely gets over while in coverage in time to eliminate holes in the zones or provide adequate help.

As for Barron, remember he already has three years in our defense. How many of our current DB's can say that, 2? Remember how fast Randall Gay picked up our defense when he first came into the league from LSU? I expect the same with Barron.

After a red shirt year he should have complete command of the secondary calls and provide more athletic ability in both run support and coverage than Sanders.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

BTW, we could have a corner on the team who caould call plays for the secondary.

Given that safety is the key communication piece in the Pats secondary and only Sanders can currently get the Pats lined up correctly on any given play, I see safety as a huge priority in the 2011 draft.

I have never seen a defense where a CB made the secondary calls. That might be very difficult to do. How could a CB make adjustments after the offense has broken the huddle all the way across the field? I think having a CB make secondary calls is way out of the BB "do your job" scheme.

 

[mgteich]

In addition, we could bring back Ojinnaka as a backup OT. I still would much rather have Light at LT.

HOWEVER, I agree with you. We cannot count on Neal. He might be back for his half of season, or not. As you say, we are left with Connolly, Wendell, Ohrnberger (and Koppen) for the interior positions. While there are guards in the draft, the hole left by Mankins would be large.

It seems to me that the 2 sentences in bold offset each other. OTs may be harder to find in the draft, but they're easier to find on the roster.

I'm assuming that Neal retires, giving the team 2 starting guard spots to fill with an existing roster of
Connolly
Wendell
Ohrnberger

vs. 2 tackle spots to fill with
Vollmer
Kaczur
LeVoir
Maneri

That latter looks tons better to me. What's more, Mankins is the only OG I can ever recall starting as a rookie under Belichick, and he was a 1st-round pick who was a 4-year starting tackle in college playing for a BB crony. I'd hate to rely on finding an instant LG starter in this draft -- you'd probably be looking at somebody like Nate Potter from Boise St. or Danny Watkins from Baylor? Yikes.

 

[jeffbiologist]

First, I think we know BB ALWAYS drafts for the secondary. Nex, it is easily the most-often-injured position and every year for as long as I can remember a player "scheduled" to make the 53 ends up on IR in the preseason. I think we should plan on a day without Meriweather but I have a sneaking suspicion BB likes his poach of Barrett from Denver and may give him a good chance next year. Drafting another CB high could be helpful because we can then CUT Bodden and his high salary and spend the money elsewhere if we need to. It gives us both options and leverage, and if we go to a 18 game season and expand the roster by 3 players at least 1-2 of those guys will be DB/STers.

 

[jsull87]

I do think now more than ever we will probably pick up another CB somewhere... apparently we have only been dressing 3cb's (with bodden and wilhite injured) I think at least 1 will be picked for depth

 

[patchick]

Drafting another CB high could be helpful because we can then CUT Bodden and his high salary and spend the money elsewhere if we need to.

You would cut your proven starting CB because he's slated to make a whopping $3.9 million next year? Wow.

The CB market is crazy these days, I consider Bodden a bargain.

 

[Sciz]

Leigh Bodden got $10M to sit on IR for a year. The $4M he's due for each of the next 3 seasons isn't bad at all.

 

[DaBruinz]

It is and it isn't. There are only 4 Safeties signed for next year and only 2 beyond 2012. There are currently nine potential safeties for 2011 currently on the roster. If they expand rosters to 55-58. I can see them still keeping five safeties next year.

Sergio Brown SS
Patrick Chung SS
Brandon Meriweather FS
James Sanders FS
Jarrad Page SS (FA)
Josh Barrett SS (RFA - History of Shoulder Injuries)
Bret Lockett FS (ERFA - More of a ST guy, Injury concern)
Brandon McGowan FS (FA)
Ross Ventrone FS (Practice Squad)

I think they will try and move Meriweather during the 2011 draft to a team like Houston or San Fran since he only has one year left and they can't keep both him and Sanders beyond 2011. There's no guarantee that Page and McGowan are back next year if they find dollars elsewhere.

I think the 3rd-4th round they can find a good FS prospect like Quinton Carter from Oklahoma.

Where did you get your positions for players? And please don't say the Pats website because they only say Safety or DB.

McGowan and Sanders are more Strong Safeties than Free safeties.

Page has the ability to play both FS and SS. As do Sergio Brown and Josh Barrett.

I don't see McGowan coming back. Page would be nice to re-sign, but him walking would actually provide a potential comp pick for the Pats.

Is there a potential spot for a safety? Yes, if they move Meriweather and let Page and McGowan go.

I'll be honest. I believe that the Pats have stopped looking for a true "Free Safety" and are looking for "hybrid" safeties. Ones who can play in run support as well as against the Pass.

Now, this all being said, the quality of player as safety, amongst the seniors, isn't spectacular. Unless there are some stellar Juniors who declare, this may not be the year to invest a draft pick in a safety.

 

[DaBruinz]

First, I think we know BB ALWAYS drafts for the secondary. Nex, it is easily the most-often-injured position and every year for as long as I can remember a player "scheduled" to make the 53 ends up on IR in the preseason. I think we should plan on a day without Meriweather but I have a sneaking suspicion BB likes his poach of Barrett from Denver and may give him a good chance next year. Drafting another CB high could be helpful because we can then CUT Bodden and his high salary and spend the money elsewhere if we need to. It gives us both options and leverage, and if we go to a 18 game season and expand the roster by 3 players at least 1-2 of those guys will be DB/STers.

What you think and what is reality are almost always 2 different things. The reality is that The Pats, under Belichick, don't ALWAYS draft for the secondary. In fact, 2006 and 2002 were 2 years that they didn't draft anyone for the secondary and Willie Andrews was taken specifically for his special teams ability, not his ability to play safety..

As others have mentioned, Bodden's salary is 3.9 million. That is a bargain for a starting, high quality, corner. Cutting him would be pure foolishness.. Being that the Pats only have Butler, Bodden, Wilhite, McCourty, and Arrington at CB, I could see the Pats adding another CB IF the rosters expand. Otherwise, I expect a UDFA.

BB may like Barrett, but Barrett has been injured, in one form or another, since before he was drafted. He's got a history of knee injuries, shoulder injuries. etc.

That being said, I only see the Pats looking at safety if they allow Page and McGowan to walk AND they trade Meriweather. Also, I just don't see the quality and depth at safety in this draft, at least amongst the seniors.. That could change if there are some Juniors who declare.

 

[SirApropos]

Where did you get your positions for players? And please don't say the Pats website because they only say Safety or DB.

2010 New England Patriots season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jeffbiologist]

What you think and what is reality are almost always 2 different things. The reality is that The Pats, under Belichick, don't ALWAYS draft for the secondary. In fact, 2006 and 2002 were 2 years that they didn't draft anyone for the secondary and Willie Andrews was taken specifically for his special teams ability, not his ability to play safety..

As others have mentioned, Bodden's salary is 3.9 million. That is a bargain for a starting, high quality, corner. Cutting him would be pure foolishness.. Being that the Pats only have Butler, Bodden, Wilhite, McCourty, and Arrington at CB, I could see the Pats adding another CB IF the rosters expand. Otherwise, I expect a UDFA.

BB may like Barrett, but Barrett has been injured, in one form or another, since before he was drafted. He's got a history of knee injuries, shoulder injuries. etc.

That being said, I only see the Pats looking at safety if they allow Page and McGowan to walk AND they trade Meriweather. Also, I just don't see the quality and depth at safety in this draft, at least amongst the seniors.. That could change if there are some Juniors who declare.

You know, drafting 19+DBs in 11 years pretty much solidifies my point. $3.9 Million for a player coming off a season ending injury could be VERY expensive depending on who is on the board when we pick. If we are looking at another McCourty would anyone complain?? I think its safe to say you can look down the roster and see there is plenty of room for more youth. Some $$ vets will lose their jobs to rookies, it happens every year. You have no clue what player you will be getting post injury and you have no clue who will be on the board when we pick.