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The Lee Smith conundrum


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3 Guesses who Solder's binky is this year :eek:


My Binky is Solder actually.

smith is a guy we got who had no right falling as far as he did. I like Cannon as well (same situation just Can the man would have been a 1st rounder or early 2nd)


Youth FTW
 

SPECIAL TEAMS IS USELESS NOW W/ KICKOFFS OUT.



SO YOU KEEP A GUY FOR PUNTS ONLY? WASTE OF A SPOT:bricks:

Slater contributes more on punts than kickoffs...
 
I agree that the #3 and #4 TE do not matter much in the greater scheme of things relative to the OL, Brady and receivers. However, imagine for a moment (assuming all make the roster), a formation of 4 TE with Faulk in the backfield with Brady.

Assuming that Hernandez and Gronk are at the ends of the line, how does the defense respond? Is it a run, screen, or a pass? Talk about a heavy package!!

Also, interesting scenarios if both Hernandez and Gronk were to line up on one side with Crump and Smith on the other... Run happy to one side or a pass to the other? Or just the opposite as Crump and Smith release against lesser pass defenders? Or does Faulk release into the flat of whichever side?

Oh, the possibilities of four good tight ends and the jack of all trades Kevin Faulk... Of course, on the next play the Patriots might go five wide as Branch, Welker, et al give the heavy package a breather...
 
Tracy White was added via trade during TC of the 2010 season. He wasn't a part of the Pats for the 2009 season.

McKenzie was injured in 2009. That was the year he tore his ACL during rookie drills. He wasn't a part of the initial 53 since he was already on IR.

2009 - Aiken, Lockett, Slater, Alexander

2010 - Slater, White, Arrington, Fletcher

By my count, it's 4 both years..

Also, using the "initial" 53 from NESN isn't a good idea since that is published after the "final" cuts of training camp. Using the Week 1 roster is a better idea.


2009
http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/54481/NE_Gamebook.pdf

2010
http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/54868/NE_Gamebook.pdf

I tried finding these on the Pats website and couldn't. The changes to the "Games & Stats" section have made it a lot less user friendly.

That's a fair enough idea, although my point was 'who makes it' to the original 53 man squad. That is why I was going with the initial 53 man roster.

Obviously, we all realize that changes will be made between the initial shaving down to 53 guys, and the first game.

The point was to show exactly 'who' Belichick deemed necessary to keep when making his choice down to 53 players--and the selection of that list verifies my main point.

As far as the issue as to whether it's 4 players or 3 players---I guess it doesn't matter, but Aiken did see significant time at WR in 2009. I am not sure why you would consider him a ST-only player? He played a role on the team, and we all saw that. Even more, he was expected to play a role on the team, as the opening day depth chart has him as the #4th WR. It's not exactly like he was the WR6 like Slater.

In 2010, Arrington also played a significant role on the team too, as Bodden had already gone down with an injury and had been put on IR. Why would you NOT consider Arrington a possible contributing CB? At the very least as a dime back? All he had last yr in front of him was Wheatley, Wilhite, and Butler (when you consider the unknown rookie effect of DMcC, it's not like many of us expected him to be a #1 CB). At the very LEAST, Arrington was fighting for a #4 CB spot, which makes him a dime back CB in 4 CB formations.

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That's how I get 3 ST-only players:

2010--I do not include Arrington, as Bodden had gone down on IR, and McCourty was an unknown rookie. The thinking that Arrington was not here as a possible 'real and actual' CB is interesting to me.

2009--Aiken was our 5th WR, actually he ended up being the 4th when Galloway was released, but even as the #4 he certainly was expected to contribute as some time of offensive production. How, in your mind, would this make Aiken a 'ST-only' player? Usually ST-only players are NOT the 4th WR on the opening day roster. (???)

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In the big picture in hardly matters that much, so I certainly don't mean to downplay your opinion, I am just curious as to why you would not count those guys--especially Sam Aiken.

I consider 'ST-only' players as players who are not expected to contribute too much as any 'real' or given position.
 
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SPECIAL TEAMS IS USELESS NOW W/ KICKOFFS OUT. WE DON'T NEED A SPECIALIST WHO SUX @ WR :bricks:


Special teams are huge and the change in kick-off rules is minor. Fortunately Belichik understands this more than most coaches and the Miami game last year demonstrated just how integral they are, and as another example take a look at the chargers, who led the league in offense and defense statistically but had one of the worst ST units in football; They didn't make the play-offs.


Belichik constructs his roster knowing that ST play is pivotal to field position and the entirety of the game and the last 13 spots on the roster are essentially dedicated to players who can contribute in as many ways as possible because they won't be regular starters on either side of the ball, and that's why players like Slater defy fan expectations at final cutdown year after year, because they can play on multiple ST units and will end up activated on game day when guys like Taylor Price and Fred Taylor were sitting.


Hopefully at some point you will understand that draft magazines aren't a guide to putting a roster for that season together, and that the patriots actually don't have to wait for your 2012 draft binky to be ready to win a Championship, they are at that point already. Love the draft all you want,most of us do as well, but realize at some point that they are just prospects, not proven NFL players.
 
Understand that even if we have 4 TE's on the 53 man roster, it is unlikely that all 4 would be active.

I agree that the #3 and #4 TE do not matter much in the greater scheme of things relative to the OL, Brady and receivers. However, imagine for a moment (assuming all make the roster), a formation of 4 TE with Faulk in the backfield with Brady.

Assuming that Hernandez and Gronk are at the ends of the line, how does the defense respond? Is it a run, screen, or a pass? Talk about a heavy package!!

Also, interesting scenarios if both Hernandez and Gronk were to line up on one side with Crump and Smith on the other... Run happy to one side or a pass to the other? Or just the opposite as Crump and Smith release against lesser pass defenders? Or does Faulk release into the flat of whichever side?

Oh, the possibilities of four good tight ends and the jack of all trades Kevin Faulk... Of course, on the next play the Patriots might go five wide as Branch, Welker, et al give the heavy package a breather...
 
Special teams are huge and the change in kick-off rules is minor. Fortunately Belichik understands this more than most coaches and the Miami game last year demonstrated just how integral they are, and as another example take a look at the chargers, who led the league in offense and defense statistically but had one of the worst ST units in football; They didn't make the play-offs.

One thing that consistently gets overlooked is that the NFL made two changes. On the one hand, the kickoffs are moved up five yards, but OTOH, the "runup" for the coverage team has been reduced to five yards as well. In other words, there'll be more touchbacks, but, OTOH, when returns do happen, the coverage team won't be moving as fast as before.
 
One thing that consistently gets overlooked is that the NFL made two changes. On the one hand, the kickoffs are moved up five yards, but OTOH, the "runup" for the coverage team has been reduced to five yards as well. In other words, there'll be more touchbacks, but, OTOH, when returns do happen, the coverage team won't be moving as fast as before.


The coupling of the two makes me think there will still be many returns and more KR's will take it out of the end zone as the ST defense coming at them won 't be as fully developed.
 
One thing that consistently gets overlooked is that the NFL made two changes. On the one hand, the kickoffs are moved up five yards, but OTOH, the "runup" for the coverage team has been reduced to five yards as well. In other words, there'll be more touchbacks, but, OTOH, when returns do happen, the coverage team won't be moving as fast as before.

A great point and reminder, CT. This is just as important of a rule change in my opinion, but it seems as though not too many are taking it into consideration as much.

The coupling of the two makes me think there will still be many returns and more KR's will take it out of the end zone as the ST defense coming at them won 't be as fully developed.

Townes--why do you think that the ST defense won't be as 'fully developed?' Just curious as to what your definition and meaning of that is. Thanks.
 
A great point and reminder, CT. This is just as important of a rule change in my opinion, but it seems as though not too many are taking it into consideration as much.



Townes--why do you think that the ST defense won't be as 'fully developed?' Just curious as to what your definition and meaning of that is. Thanks.



Without as much of a run-up they will further upfield than they would have and I think that will tempt returners to take the ball out of the endzone when they wouldn't have in the past. We'll see but on the face it makes some sense.
 
Without as much of a run-up they will further upfield than they would have and I think that will tempt returners to take the ball out of the endzone when they wouldn't have in the past. We'll see but on the face it makes some sense.

Oh yeah, no doubt, I believe it makes some sense too.

I just did not fully understand exactly what "fully developed" defense meant to you, that's all.
 
The dynamics of the kick offs has changed, which will change the type of ST player needed. By moveing the spot of the kick up 5 yds. the kickers will change their kicks for more hight and less distance, thus increaseing hang time.

By makeing coverage teams line up within 5 yds. of the ball, eliminateing the running head start, collision speeds will be reduced (safety) and the recieveing team will have less distance to drop back and more time to set up returns.

The kicking team will have more time to get downfield but will do it at a reduced speed with elimination of the running head start. That i feel will reduce the impact of the speedy gunners, make players like Slater less of an impact. I feel the kicking team will replace the speedy gunner type of ST players with bigger LB,RB,S, type players who can mantain thair lanes and not be pushed out of them. I do not see the possition of a ST only type player other than LS,K,P, haveing a place on the team unless there is very little depth on the team, makeing room for them. ST may be a mitigating factor on the depth chart for some of the back up players.

The last few years the Pats have had very little depth, thus there has been room for three and four ST type players. Now it appears that depth is returning to virtualy every possition of the roster, squeaseing out the luxury of the ST player. Slater for one will be cut. Originaly hoped to be a return man/reciever,never materialized. He will be replaced by one of our speedy DB's. White will be replaced by depth at LB.
 
The dynamics of the kick offs has changed, which will change the type of ST player needed. By moveing the spot of the kick up 5 yds. the kickers will change their kicks for more hight and less distance, thus increaseing hang time.

By makeing coverage teams line up within 5 yds. of the ball, eliminateing the running head start, collision speeds will be reduced (safety) and the recieveing team will have less distance to drop back and more time to set up returns.

The kicking team will have more time to get downfield but will do it at a reduced speed with elimination of the running head start. That i feel will reduce the impact of the speedy gunners, make players like Slater less of an impact. I feel the kicking team will replace the speedy gunner type of ST players with bigger LB,RB,S, type players who can mantain thair lanes and not be pushed out of them. I do not see the possition of a ST only type player other than LS,K,P, haveing a place on the team unless there is very little depth on the team, makeing room for them. ST may be a mitigating factor on the depth chart for some of the back up players.

The last few years the Pats have had very little depth, thus there has been room for three and four ST type players. Now it appears that depth is returning to virtualy every possition of the roster, squeaseing out the luxury of the ST player.
Slater for one will be cut. Originaly hoped to be a return man/reciever,never materialized. He will be replaced by one of our speedy DB's. White will be replaced by depth at LB.

Yes, that is pretty much where I have been heading this whole offseason, ever since the draft--much to the dismay of many who disagree with this assessment.

I feel as though the ST-only position will be cut by at least one player, for the reasons you listed above. And I think that this is kind of stunning that as many don't agree, but we will have to see.

I have tried to do some minor checking into the initial cut down to 53 man rosters in the past 2 seasons, and it appears as though we can all agree it was somewhere between 3 and 4 ST-only players, with no clear cut expected contribution in actual playing time.

I initially agreed with your thoughts on Slater, but now I am thinking as though he may still be a 50/50 chance of returning. I noticed that Arrington had taken over Aiken's spot at the other gunner, and that was for the most part, last yr. I am wondering if both gunner spots will be turned over that quickly, and also if Slater's (depth) versatility on WR and S will not come into consideration too? After all, he does know the system, and can offer more than a guy off the streets. For those reasons, I am still guessing that he stays maybe.

The thought of Tracy White staying on as a ST-only guy is all going to depend on whether or not he's even here, as he is an UFA. If he ends up staying he will likely remain as a ST only guy. If he doesn't, the 'bigger/solid' LB type will be competitive, as Murrell and now Carter will compete.

Ultimately, I agree that one of the CB/S will be the other spot, but I still think there will be 2-3 guys as ST-only.
 
The last few years the Pats have had very little depth, thus there has been room for three and four ST type players. Now it appears that depth is returning to virtualy every possition of the roster, squeaseing out the luxury of the ST player. Slater for one will be cut. Originaly hoped to be a return man/reciever,never materialized. He will be replaced by one of our speedy DB's. White will be replaced by depth at LB.

The 2004 squad was one of the deepest teams that I've ever seen, and they had those dedicated ST spots. It's not a "our backups suck so let's have ST specialists instead" thing- it's an organizational philosophy that's held by Belichick and has been part of the team since the day he got here.
 
The dynamics of the kick offs has changed, which will change the type of ST player needed. By moveing the spot of the kick up 5 yds. the kickers will change their kicks for more hight and less distance, thus increaseing hang time.

By makeing coverage teams line up within 5 yds. of the ball, eliminateing the running head start, collision speeds will be reduced (safety) and the recieveing team will have less distance to drop back and more time to set up returns.

The only problem with that is that the kickers aren't going to adjust that much. Again, you ignore the fact that most kickers averaged under 64 YPK meaning that, from the 30 yard line, their kicks were only getting to the opposing 6 yard line. Now, it will get to the 1, with the same kick. Billy Cundiff, if he continues his hyper-kicking, will be the only one who consistently gets it into or through the endzone.

The kicking team will have more time to get downfield but will do it at a reduced speed with elimination of the running head start. That i feel will reduce the impact of the speedy gunners, make players like Slater less of an impact. I feel the kicking team will replace the speedy gunner type of ST players with bigger LB,RB,S, type players who can mantain thair lanes and not be pushed out of them. I do not see the possition of a ST only type player other than LS,K,P, haveing a place on the team unless there is very little depth on the team, makeing room for them. ST may be a mitigating factor on the depth chart for some of the back up players.

As for the hole speed thing, I'm sorry, but these guys get to full speed within the first 10 yards. This false idea that they are going to, somehow, be going slower when the collide is just fictitious. They receiving team will still pull their guys back (except for onside kicks), thus increasing the space for running/acceleration.

The last few years the Pats have had very little depth, thus there has been room for three and four ST type players. Now it appears that depth is returning to virtualy every possition of the roster, squeaseing out the luxury of the ST player. Slater for one will be cut. Originaly hoped to be a return man/reciever,never materialized. He will be replaced by one of our speedy DB's. White will be replaced by depth at LB.

Look at the Pats since 2001. They have regularly carried 3-5 ST only players. In 2001, you had Patrick Pass, Larry Izzo, Matt Chatham, Leonard Myers, and Antwan Harris. And the Pats had good depth that year.

Go back and look at 2003 and 2004. Again, 3-5 "ST Only" players.

Slater is still a good return man. People seem to forget that in 2009, Tate led the team with a 24.5 YPR. This was also the 1st year that the 3 man wedge was eliminated. (Note, I don't count Tate since he only played in 1 game). Slater isn't just on Kick-returns. He's in for kick coverage, punt coverage, punt returns, field goal unit and for opposing field goals.

If Slater is cut, it's because someone worked their butt off more than he did. That's a huge task. Just like it was a huge task for someone to come in and unseat Larry Izzo. Much to the chagrin of myself and many others who predicted that "this would be the year that Izzo faltered" year in and year out.

While "you don't see" the position of a ST "only" player, they've been around for decades. You're lack of knowledge doesn't mean it's not true or that it won't happen.

You clearly never watched a game prior to 1994 and seem to have forgotten that Belichick coached special teams when teams were kicking from the 35 all the time. So it's nothing new for him.
 
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Here we go with the Slater thing again.

Even when Slater was injured most of last preseason and couldn't prove his worth, so to speak, he made the team. Even when he suffered that elbow injury in the final game of the preseason of the 2009, he made the team.

And I think people are making way to big of a deal on the kickoff rule changes. If the changes really made STers worthless, why did Belichick invest another draft pick in a STer with Malcolm Williams?

Year after year, it's deja vu. Special teamers are worthless, blah blah blah, Slater sucks and will be cut.. Of course he isn't cut, and we even witness special teams winning multiple games throughout the NFL, but it never sinks into some peoples' minds.
 
The only problem with that is that the kickers aren't going to adjust that much. Again, you ignore the fact that most kickers averaged under 64 YPK meaning that, from the 30 yard line, their kicks were only getting to the opposing 6 yard line. Now, it will get to the 1, with the same kick. Billy Cundiff, if he continues his hyper-kicking, will be the only one who consistently gets it into or through the endzone.

*cough* Ghost *cough*
 
Slater, White, and Arrington were our top special teamers. They were the 3 leaders in special teams tackles. Slater started on all six special teams units and was the leader in special teams tackles. He may more solo tackles than all of the following combined: Chung, Page, Sanders, Brown and Guyton).

I don't see Slater going anywhere.

Here we go with the Slater thing again.

Even when Slater was injured most of last preseason and couldn't prove his worth, so to speak, he made the team. Even when he suffered that elbow injury in the final game of the preseason of the 2009, he made the team.

And I think people are making way to big of a deal on the kickoff rule changes. If the changes really made STers worthless, why did Belichick invest another draft pick in a STer with Malcolm Williams?

Year after year, it's deja vu. Special teamers are worthless, blah blah blah, Slater sucks and will be cut.. Of course he isn't cut, and we even witness special teams winning multiple games throughout the NFL, but it never sinks into some peoples' minds.
 
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I agree that the #3 and #4 TE do not matter much in the greater scheme of things relative to the OL, Brady and receivers. However, imagine for a moment (assuming all make the roster), a formation of 4 TE with Faulk in the backfield with Brady.

Assuming that Hernandez and Gronk are at the ends of the line, how does the defense respond? Is it a run, screen, or a pass? Talk about a heavy package!!

Also, interesting scenarios if both Hernandez and Gronk were to line up on one side with Crump and Smith on the other... Run happy to one side or a pass to the other? Or just the opposite as Crump and Smith release against lesser pass defenders? Or does Faulk release into the flat of whichever side?

Oh, the possibilities of four good tight ends and the jack of all trades Kevin Faulk... Of course, on the next play the Patriots might go five wide as Branch, Welker, et al give the heavy package a breather...

Well, no way this happens... Never ever dreamed only Gronk and Hernandez would make the final 53 this year!!
 
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