Some love for Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon?

[Christian]

When we drafted Ryan, I thought to myself...okay...I read quite a bit about him and figured he'd be a solid #2 or 3 corner one day but I certainly wasn't thrilled.

When we drafted Harmon, I was borderline livid, for reasons we have discussed numerous times on this board.

Now I have watched the coaches film...nor any film for that matter other than the games...but these guys seem to be doing a VERY solid job. Safety/CB has really not been much of an issue and it appears as if Harmon is really starting to get some reps over Gregory. Ryan has seen some PT so far but in a limited role. He is about to see some serious reps with Talib likely to miss time.

What are everyone's thoughts on these two? Anybody that's watched them closely?

 

[Oswlek]

Ryan is legit. Even when matched up against really good receivers, he stays tight against them, though he hasn't been matched with a speedster yet, probably intentionally.

I am very encouraged by the little I've seen from Harmon, but the snap count is still too low to derive anything meaningful from it.

 

[cstjohn17]

The fact that I have barely noticed them at all is a good thing, it is pretty easy to tell when a rookie misses an assignment in the secondary and gives up a 70 yard touchdown.

Logan has seemed pretty solid, honestly haven't seen Harmon at all.

 

[mgteich]

Gregory had 2 fewer reps than McCourty. Harmon didn't take his reps. Harmon got reps when Talib was out and McCourty had to cover Graham.

However, I agree with your overall point. Ryan and Harmon have done OK when they are in, which is certainly all one should expect from rookie defensive backs. Most of us thought that the Wilson's (A and T) were competing for the 3rd safety spot and might even displace Gregory. How wrong we were. Gregory has played almost every rep, and Harmon is hte #3 safety.

When we drafted Ryan, I thought to myself...okay...I read quite a bit about him and figured he'd be a solid #2 or 3 corner one day but I certainly wasn't thrilled.

When we drafted Harmon, I was borderline livid, for reasons we have discussed numerous times on this board.

Now I have watched the coaches film...nor any film for that matter other than the games...but these guys seem to be doing a VERY solid job. Safety/CB has really not been much of an issue and it appears as if Harmon is really starting to get some reps over Gregory. Ryan has seen some PT so far but in a limited role. He is about to see some serious reps with Talib likely to miss time.

What are everyone's thoughts on these two? Anybody that's watched them closely?

 

[Christian]

Definitely was upset when A Wilson went on IR. Really thought he'd be a great leader to have on that defense.

Logan Ryan's supposed achilles heel is his speed correct? I haven't watched him closely at all. But as someone said, it's very easy to notice when someone gets burned. Haven't seen that at all. Only seen him break up a few passes.

 

[Ozymandias]

I wasn't upset at all when A. Wilson was IR'ed. He's terrible now. Sure he's a great leader, but he can't get it done anymore. Leadership can only get you so far. The secondary needed an infusion of talent.

I think that these two Scarlet Knights have really acclimated themselves well within the defense. I've been very impressive with how they've been playing so far. They just have to stay consistent with it.

 

[ausbacker]

Definitely was upset when A Wilson went on IR. Really thought he'd be a great leader to have on that defense.

Logan Ryan's supposed achilles heel is his speed correct? I haven't watched him closely at all. But as someone said, it's very easy to notice when someone gets burned. Haven't seen that at all. Only seen him break up a few passes.

Ryan's listed 40 time is 4.53. Speed shouldn't be an issue but then again, most DBs are going to find it difficult keeping up with 4.3 guys in the open field if they haven't jammed them at the LOS.

 

[Ozymandias]

Ryan's listed 40 time is 4.53. Speed shouldn't be an issue but then again, most DBs are going to find it difficult keeping up with 4.3 guys in the open field if they haven't jammed them at the LOS.

Actually, for a CB, 4.53 is considerably slow if you're strictly playing on the outside. You'd want them to run at least 4.45-4.50 at minimum.

The scouting report on Ryan is pretty clear that speed IS his biggest issue:

Strengths: Enough size and strength for the position with good length. Strong man cover skills and works hard to gain body position and make a play on the ball. Athletic feet and flexible ankles to stick with receivers' hip pocket. Smooth hip movements with the footwork needed for the position. Strikes through the ballcarrier and closes in a flash with good make-up quickness to recover.

Gets physical at the line of scrimmage, doing a nice job peeking into the backfield to make plays in run support. Good timing and leaping ability to highpoint and get his hands on the ball. Strong competitor to bait throws and plays the position with supreme confidence. Smart with experience in zone and man coverage. Makes impact plays on special teams coverage. Productive with 38 passes defended the past two seasons, including seven interceptions.

Weaknesses: Lacks elite top-end speed for the position and can be beat vertically. Will play overaggressive in the open field tackle and needs to be more consistent breaking down on the move. Needs to use better eye discipline and can be susceptible on fakes and double-moves. Will allow bigger receivers to push him around. His hands-on approach and physical nature in coverage will get him in trouble at the next level.

He was easily burnable at Rutgers on the perimeter because of his lack of foot speed. The Patriots have put him in the right positions as they always do to have his biggest liability not being much of an issue so far.

 

[Christian]

He doesn't possess ELITE corner speed. Speed is very important for a corner...particularly when defending the #1 WR's who go deep often. But quickness is also very important as a corner, being able to cut, stay with receivers, etc. Sounds like he's got the attributes to be a very good #2 corner down the road. I'll take that. If we can keep Talib around and stay stocked with Dennard, Talib, Arrington and Ryan...that's a very good group of young corners. You ALWAYS need to have good depth at DB as we all know. So I think signing Talib is imperative in the offseason.

Going back to the speed issue, if a corner is smart, strong, and has ALL the other attributes except for 4.4 speed...then I believe they can still be VERY, VERY good.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Rookie CBs around the league have been terrible and getting torched like crazy. (Hayden, Milliner, Trufant, etc) Logan's held his own.

For a late 3rd round CB, he looks like a good investment. Like Ozy/Christian said, he's a niche CB like Arrington. Just put him in positions that play to his strengths and he'll turn out fine.

 

[ausbacker]

Actually, for a CB, 4.53 is considerably slow if you're strictly playing on the outside. You'd want them to run at least 4.45-4.50 at minimum.

The scouting report on Ryan is pretty clear that speed IS his biggest issue:

He was easily burnable at Rutgers on the perimeter because of his lack of foot speed. The Patriots have put him in the right positions as they always do to have his biggest liability not being much of an issue so far.

Whilst I agree in theory, speed isn't an issue if you jam receivers at the LOS and play them physically. Ryan is showing that tendency (which I like a lot).

In reality, I wouldn't be playing Ryan on the team's fastest WR anyway. I'd leave that for Talib, Dennard or if necessary, McCourty.

 

[Ozymandias]

He doesn't possess ELITE corner speed. Speed is very important for a corner...particularly when defending the #1 WR's who go deep often. But quickness is also very important as a corner, being able to cut, stay with receivers, etc. Sounds like he's got the attributes to be a very good #2 corner down the road. I'll take that. If we can keep Talib around and stay stocked with Dennard, Talib, Arrington and Ryan...that's a very good group of young corners. You ALWAYS need to have good depth at DB as we all know. So I think signing Talib is imperative in the offseason.

Going back to the speed issue, if a corner is smart, strong, and has ALL the other attributes except for 4.4 speed...then I believe they can still be VERY, VERY good.

He lacks the necessary attributes to be a very good outside corner. His skills are best utilized as a slot corner because of his quickness, and COD.

If Ryan is starting on the outside, your defense is in trouble. He's essentially no different than Kyle Arrington in that regard.

I like how the Patriots have been using him so far. Using his strengths and limiting his weaknesses.

 

[Ozymandias]

Whilst I agree in theory, speed isn't an issue if you jam receivers at the LOS and play them physically. Ryan is showing that tendency (which I like a lot).

In reality, I wouldn't be playing Ryan on the team's fastest WR anyway. I'd leave that for Talib, Dennard or if necessary, McCourty.

Your first bit is what makes Dennard the outlier, at least on paper. I know he's been burnt deep a few times, (he looks much faster on tape than his combine time would suggest) but it's his physicality that makes him such a good corner. When he gets his hands on you, you're not going to beat him coverage. He struggles with shallow crossing routes, where his lack of foot speed does somewhat show up.

I do find it interesting that the Patriots have went that route - a lot of press coverage physical corners instead of quick speedy diminutive guys like they used to have. I think that was the right choice to make in today's NFL.

 

[Christian]

^ Agreed. CB's have to be able to Jam guys and get physical. You're not going to find many 6 foot-6'1 CBs who can run and play with WRs. So it's better, if youre going to have the smaller guys, guys that can be physical.

That said, if Ryan can't be an outside CB..or a very good one at least...then why can Dennard? Dennard looks very good on the outside and doesn't have elite speed. You mentioned his strength, but Ryan looks to have those same qualities.

 

[Ozymandias]

That said, if Ryan can't be an outside CB..or a very good one at least...then why can Dennard? Dennard looks very good on the outside and doesn't have elite speed. You mentioned his strength, but Ryan looks to have those same qualities.

Dennard has significantly superior cover skills. He went against the best of the best in the SEC mano-a-mano and it has carried over nicely. He's used to being on an island while Ryan is not. That's not to say Ryan can never attain these qualities, it's just that Alfonzo has had more experience at it.

Before his arrest, Dennard was a surefire second-third rounder. The only reason why he wasn't considered a first rounder was because of his speed. Give a guy like Dennard elite speed, along with his near-elite cover skills and physicality and you're probably looking at another Darrelle Revis (pre-ACL form).

 

[Simple Jack's Brother]

NFL.com says Logan Ryan ran a 4.56, while Joe Haden ran a 4.57, Aqib Talib ran a 4.44, and Richard Sherman ran a 4.54.

CB is about SO much more than speed. Granted it's nice to have a CB who can run a 4.30, but in the grand scheme of things, it's about technique more than anything. When was the last time you guys saw Joe Haden or Richard Sherman get burned on a deep streak? Doesn't happen too often, and Logan Ryan clearly has the same amount of straight line speed. Granted Sherman and Haden are totally different animals, but I think it shows straight line speed isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ozymandias]

When was the last time you guys saw Joe Haden or Richard Sherman get burned on a deep streak?

I've seen both those guys get torched . Especially Haden. A.J. Green and Mike Wallace put in work on him in previous seasons. His speed is his greatest weakness.

Sherman gets burnt too. See, Roddy White in the NFC divisional game last year.

Those are just some anectodal examples. Suggesting that they don't burnt is misleading, it's just they make up for it with other great plays that it outweighs all those things. Even Talib gets torched every now and then.

 

[mr53k]

I still dont get it why they didnt draft Marcus Cooper over Beauharnais.
I have one question. Is there possibility if Talib gets hurt for more than 4 weeks that they sign Dowling?

 

[ivanvamp]

He doesn't possess ELITE corner speed. Speed is very important for a corner...particularly when defending the #1 WR's who go deep often. But quickness is also very important as a corner, being able to cut, stay with receivers, etc. Sounds like he's got the attributes to be a very good #2 corner down the road. I'll take that. If we can keep Talib around and stay stocked with Dennard, Talib, Arrington and Ryan...that's a very good group of young corners. You ALWAYS need to have good depth at DB as we all know. So I think signing Talib is imperative in the offseason.

Going back to the speed issue, if a corner is smart, strong, and has ALL the other attributes except for 4.4 speed...then I believe they can still be VERY, VERY good.

Ty Law's 40 time at the combine was 4.5. He turned out pretty good.

 

[Harrisoned!]

Dennard has significantly superior cover skills. He went against the best of the best in the SEC mano-a-mano and it has carried over nicely. He's used to being on an island while Ryan is not. That's not to say Ryan can never attain these qualities, it's just that Alfonzo has had more experience at it.

Before his arrest, Dennard was a surefire second-third rounder. The only reason why he wasn't considered a first rounder was because of his speed. Give a guy like Dennard elite speed, along with his near-elite cover skills and physicality and you're probably looking at another Darrelle Revis (pre-ACL form).

Alfonzo Dennard played at Nebraska, which, last I checked, is not in the SEC. The Big Ten is not exactly known for its elite speed for skill players; in fact, the Big East probably had nearly as many skill guys drafted as the Big Ten over the last few years.