Shawn Springs: Pats D scheme not designed to be dominant

[zoostation]

drunk? Maybe you should try reading my quote again...

lmao!......

 

[BTTA]

No what are YOU talking about.

With all the talk about how bad the Pats defense was last season, all the mediots NEVER mention that they had the 5th best scoring defense in the LEAGUE. That's 5th best in the only real defensive stat that counts.

It sort of like selective accounting, wall street style.

I think scoring defense is overrated as a stat, particularly by the fans of teams that do well in that stat but not in the others. Getting 3 and out's, pushing teams backwards and establishing better field position for your offense, and getting off the field quickly are all very helpful, particularly by the time the fourth quarter comes around.

It would be reasonable to partially ascribe the Pats' problems closing out teams in the fourth quarter to a defense that has been on the field too long and has allowed the other team's offense to find a rhythm.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

That's kind of like what Kontradiction said. You misread him.

Don't know what your talking about but the 2003 defense were ranked #7 in overall defense, 1st in INT's, 1st in passes defensed, 1st in defensive TD's, 6th in sacks, 7th in 3rd down percentage and 1st in points allowed.


No, anybody that compares the 2009 defense and points allowed with the 2003 defense needs to get their head checked. This is the exact reason why many people like myself can see how overrated of a stat points allowed is. The points allowed for their defense was inflated because of the season opener where the offense scored points for the Bills, Tennessee and Indy. Aside from those games and the super bowl, their defense was dominant and the best in Patriots history.


I seriously hope you are not talking about this season.

Sigh

A good thread that goes down hill.

Just got done reviewing previous years stats. I didn't realize we won that week 5 game 4 sacks to 1 or that week 13 game 3 int to 2.

Uhhhh look at a scoreboard sometime. The game is tracked in like points.

Points are what matters because like that's the way a game winner is like determined.

Here is the evaluation process:

Points allowed- Only Bro can't grasp why that's important

Situational football- Here we had a problem last year vs previous years.

Stats compared to other opponents- Look at the Miami game. For all the complaining about that game compare it to the other seven defenses that went to South Florida- especially the Jets.

League wise stats within the year and perevious years- Does rule changes/Polian/Ty Law mean anything?

 

[Triumph]

The scheme is fine, but the Red Zone defenses have not been the same as the Championship teams.

IIRC, NEs Red Zone D was pretty bad last year.

 

[patfanken]

Not to mitigate my own point about scoring, what HAS been missing from the Pats defense in recent years are the big plays. Those defenses back in the day, had tons of forced fumbles, recoveries and picks.

Just eyeballing it, but while the Saints had very pedestrian stats by their overall defense, they took the ball away a lot. I'm guessing that the turnover ratio is a great indicator of success in the NFL

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Not to mitigate my own point about scoring, what HAS been missing from the Pats defense in recent years are the big plays. Those defenses back in the day, had tons of forced fumbles, recoveries and picks.

Just eyeballing it, but while the Saints had very pedestrian stats by their overall defense, they took the ball away a lot. I'm guessing that the turnover ratio is a great indicator of success in the NFL

Others have said this as well but it cannot be over emphasized. In the 21st century Pats heyday, most of the critical games were won or at the very least enabled by BIG plays on defense. Playmakers like Bruschi, Law, Willie, OTIS and Harrison made those plays. Ably assisted by the Seymours, etc. up front. The DL, LBs and secondary complemented and enhanced each other in synergistic fashion. Recent Pats Ds have done well in a pure numbers analysis but the big play when everything was on the line has been missing.

So a major question is...do the 2010 Pats have the talent that can make such plays and do they have the skills to coordinate DL, LB and DBs to make each play a bit above their pure talent level?

 

[Sciz]

Despite all the missing pieces, the defense was 4th in points allowed per game. The team was 5th in points allowed, but when taking out ST and defensive TDs, they actually move up a spot. That's about as dominant as you can ever hope for.

 

[Fencer]

the only real defensive stat that counts.

Takeaways count too, unless you think field position is overrated.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Sigh

A good thread that goes down hill.

Just got done reviewing previous years stats. I didn't realize we won that week 5 game 4 sacks to 1 or that week 13 game 3 int to 2.

Uhhhh look at a scoreboard sometime. The game is tracked in like points.

Points are what matters because like that's the way a game winner is like determined.

Here is the evaluation process:

Points allowed- Only Bro can't grasp why that's important

Situational football- Here we had a problem last year vs previous years.

Stats compared to other opponents- Look at the Miami game. For all the complaining about that game compare it to the other seven defenses that went to South Florida- especially the Jets.

League wise stats within the year and perevious years- Does rule changes/Polian/Ty Law mean anything?

I don't say this very often because I don't like to get personal, but you are an idiot.

2003 defense>2009 defense

And the rule change is a cop out because they won the super bowl in "04.

if you can't tell what the difference is, then please stop watching football.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I guess his Redskins and Seahawks teams were not designed to be dominant either because it all the years he played as a starter they sucked in the secondary as well.

Maybe the fact that Springs himself is far from a dominant corner hurts the secondaries he is on - Huh Shawn??

 

[TB146]

I think scoring defense is overrated as a stat, particularly by the fans of teams that do well in that stat but not in the others. Getting 3 and out's, pushing teams backwards and establishing better field position for your offense, and getting off the field quickly are all very helpful, particularly by the time the fourth quarter comes around.

It would be reasonable to partially ascribe the Pats' problems closing out teams in the fourth quarter to a defense that has been on the field too long and has allowed the other team's offense to find a rhythm.

If by "scoring defense" you mean Points Allowed, I don't know how you can say it's overrated. It's what's on the scoreboard at the end of the game.

Having said that, I agree with everything else you said. The key to big wins like the playoff wins against the Colts in 03 and 04 was a defense that frustrated and demoralized the opposing offense. It's what lead to so many appearances of "The Manning Face". The Colts couldn't get traction, and I'm not talking about field conditions. I miss that D.

In playing a 2-gap system, the Pats are prioritizing the prevention of big plays by the opposing offense over taking risks/opportunities to try to make a big play on D. In general, I'm okay with that, especially because I believe that a properly executed 2-gap system will still have opportunities for big plays like sacks, INTs, FFs, etc.... it's not just prevention. However, it's frustrating when they put the focus on preventing the big play... and still give up big plays. Like third-and-(way too long to give up) against the Jets when Keller scorched us for a 1st down. Or (dare I bring it up?) like when E-Man somehow wriggled away from being sacked and managed to complete a pass to David Tyree's head. (If I ever get a chance to go back in time, I'm putting some vaseline on his helmet. I'll find a way.)

I am optimistic, though, that the influx of new young talent will start to provide us with the right personnel to get back to that suffocating type of defense. There are several key pieces in place (Wilfork, Mayo, Bodden, etc) and a lot of potential in Butler, Chung, Spikes, McCourty, etc. And in the meantime, finishing 5th in points allowed isn't all that bad.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with the points that you have made.

I am also optimistic that as we improve the personnel, the defense will improve. I think tht the biggest improvement over 2009 will come at ILB and CB.

If by "scoring defense" you mean Points Allowed, I don't know how you can say it's overrated. It's what's on the scoreboard at the end of the game.

I am optimistic, though, that the influx of new young talent will start to provide us with the right personnel to get back to that suffocating type of defense. There are several key pieces in place (Wilfork, Mayo, Bodden, etc) and a lot of potential in Butler, Chung, Spikes, McCourty, etc. And in the meantime, finishing 5th in points allowed isn't all that bad.

 

[Patspsycho]

There's nothing wrong with the scheme. Give us the horses to run it and our pass rush is just as effective as a one gapping team.

Not to mitigate my own point about scoring, what HAS been missing from the Pats defense in recent years are the big plays. Those defenses back in the day, had tons of forced fumbles, recoveries and picks.

Just eyeballing it, but while the Saints had very pedestrian stats by their overall defense, they took the ball away a lot. I'm guessing that the turnover ratio is a great indicator of success in the NFL

I have been arguing those points. This is the first time in BB's 11 year tenure that we've had a very young defense, and most importantly an inexperienced LB corp.

There is nothing wrong with the personnel, nothing wrong with the schemes (any schemes will work when run perfectly). Just a little more patience is required.

However, I would concede that we could use better personnel up front in terms of bringing pressure. We blitzed a lot last season (40%, IIRC) because we couldn't pressure effectively.

 

[condon84]

LOL @ all the posts that suggests we had an elite defense last year and uses 'stats' to defend their argument.

 

[patfanken]

LOL @ all the posts that suggests we had an elite defense last year and uses 'stats' to defend their argument.

No I would disagree. We had a very flawed defense in many areas, but in the end the sum seemed to be greater than the individual parts, and in the area that counts the most, points allowed, the team ended up doing quite well.

The original question basically asked that would the defense do better if we were more aggressive like the Jets, Bears, Steelers etc. Some think it would. I wonder if the current philosophy, while a lot less satisfying for us fans and the stats, ultimately works better than we think because of how well we do in the area of scoring D.

That being said, I think our philosophy often covers for some lack of talent and/or experience on the D, and the difference of the Pats merely competing for a playoff spot and actually making a legitimate run at a championship will be how improved we are not so much in sack, but in take aways.

 

[condon84]

No I would disagree. We had a very flawed defense in many areas, but in the end the sum seemed to be greater than the individual parts, and in the area that counts the most, points allowed, the team ended up doing quite well.

The original question basically asked that would the defense do better if we were more aggressive like the Jets, Bears, Steelers etc. Some think it would. I wonder if the current philosophy, while a lot less satisfying for us fans and the stats, ultimately works better than we think because of how well we do in the area of scoring D.

That being said, I think our philosophy often covers for some lack of talent and/or experience on the D, and the difference of the Pats merely competing for a playoff spot and actually making a legitimate run at a championship will be how improved we are not so much in sack, but in take aways.

Irrespective of the scheme, last year's defense would have had the same issues because of the the personnel that we had. We just didn't have enough players making plays. Be it because of injuries, experience, etc., we couldn't make the 'momentum-swing' type of plays that elite defense normally would come up with in pressure type situations. Now for all the people touting our 'points allowed' average being highly ranked meaning we must have had a top 5 defense, I'll just attribute that to fans being "homers" or fans not watching the games being played but only looking at box scores.

 

[stinkypete]

Springs was right in a way, no defense whose scheme relies on Shawn Springs to cover a WR is going to be dominant.

(boom boom - ching)

 

[Calciumee]

Springs was right in a way, no defense whose scheme relies on Shawn Springs to cover a WR is going to be dominant.

(boom boom - ching)

If SS was to read this:

Ooooooo; deep burn!

 

[OldNEPatsFan]

Until this team finds 3 down players the defense will continue to be mediocre. In the old days the opposition didn't know who was rushing the passer or who would drop back in coverage, they could disguise their defense. As long as the team has to constantly use sub packages they will not be an elite defense.

 

[SEA_Pat]

Until this team finds 3 down players the defense will continue to be mediocre. In the old days the opposition didn't know who was rushing the passer or who would drop back in coverage, they could disguise their defense. As long as the team has to constantly use sub packages they will not be an elite defense.

That's an interesting point. I'd think it is tied to the overall aging of the defense, so that the guys who USED to be 3 down players were able only to do one of the things they used to do. I think many people have been frustrated by the D's predictability and lack of big plays. We didn't have any rookies step up in the secondary other than Meriweather in flashes and have gotten very little out of the drafted linebackers mainly it seems due to injuries.

I am optimistic though that we've gotten some real players in this last draft that will improve the linebackers and secondary, along with some maturity from the earlier drafts. With the increased speed and Pees out of the picture, I am looking forward to this year's edition.