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Sal Paolantonio opinion - agree or not?


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Stabler was money.

I'll bet that won't show up in the stats.

That's really the point. Tarkenton ran around like he was on the globetrotters and gained no yardage. In the playoffs, when defenses tightened up, so did he.

Stabler was money, Bradshaw wasn't fancy and a bit of a dumbass, but in the clutch I've seen him cold conk linebackers to buy time, then make the play. That does not show up on stats.

Just watch how Brady slows down in pressure situations and every movement becomes relaxed and smooth. The confidence just oozes out of him.

Namath had limited opportunities because of his knees, but his confidence infused the whole team.
 
what are you talking about? can you explain how through watching games you are magically able to divine who is a better leader? I'm not talking about stats here - I'm talking about ANY SHRED OF EVIDENCE YOU HAVE that Bradshaw "led" while Tarkenton "QB'd".

b/c I watch plenty of football now, and I have no idea if Marc Bulger is a better leader than Matt Hasselbeck. without being in those locker rooms and knowing those teams, NONE OF US know.

it's 500% more likely that the Steelers were simply a better team than the Vikings - they had more talent & they were the first team to widely abuse steroids and this led to more success. but this stuff wasn't known or wasn't sexy to write about, so the few sportwriters and TV guys who were in the public eye came up with hollow cliches and excuses to explain the success in some other way, and everyone just grew up assuming it was true.

That "evidence" you're yearning for has been presented time and again - 4 Super Bowls to none. Those Steelers were willing to follow Bradshaw into Hell and back. Those Viking and Giants teams were willing to follow Tark to the water cooler...maybe.

Yes, it was that evident.

Here, I'll give you and example.

Back around '70 I knew a guy like you. He was a good guy, but a bit full of himself.

He was a Tarkenton fan, less so of the Giants, but still...

That particular season the Giants had enjoyed a modicum of success, and were driving for a possible playoff spot. Of course, they hadn't played much of anybody, so even then I thought their record was a little suspect.

Anyway, the had a game in the offing with the LA Rams, who were at that time one of the bona fide contenders. My friend kept harping at how Tarkenton was so smart, he was going to kill the Rams.

For some reason, the odds makers had the Giants favored (I believe the game was in New York), and the spread was fairly substantial - 9, I think. In retrospect, too bad I was too young to appreciate the finer points of making gambling investments, because I knew in my heart of hearts the Giants were not going to win that game, let alone cover.

Of course, all the Boston and New York sportswriters were chiming in on this, with the venerable Jimmy Cannon pointing out the Giants were favored, "as they should be" (his quote - I still remember it).

Well, long story short, Rams kicked ass all over the field, it was a rout. And the most savoring moment of the game was when Tarkenton was benched. I had a good time with my friend that Monday morning.

It's a small story, but illustrative. I don't recall Bradshaw having been benched during the prime of his career. Maybe it happened, but I've never been aware of it.

The thing is, when big games came up, he disappeared. Bradshaw lived for those moments. He had leadership qualities that were most evident to even the casual football observer. Responding that way in those types of situations is the functional definition of leadership.

Nobody really cares if Tark, Jim Hart, or anyone else threw for a bazilloin yards, or went to Pro Bowls galore. The simple fact of the matter was, Bradshaw won, they didn't. And he did it more times than not, once he got himself grounded in the NFL.

You somehow seem to think leadership is restricted to the locker room. It's not. It spills out from places like that, where you can see it's benefice by those who wield it. I do remember reading an article in SI back then where his teammates thought Tarkenton's "leadership" in the locker room was essentially so much politicking. Whatever the merit of that view, the point here is that leadership on a football team far transcends the locker room.

Your point about the Steelers and the roids is valid, but to take your central theme to it's proper destination, it's 500% more likely that Bradshaw was a better QB than, say Tarkenton, because the results speak for themselves.

Tarkenton could throw a football, and scramble, and cause people to rise up from their seats (invariably they sat down disappointed), but Bradshaw could just win, and that's what the game, in it's essence, is all about.
 
i think you guys all make great arguments to the table, you cant look at just stats while u cant overlook energy and confidence someone could bring to the table. There are a number of factors that have to be accounted for inn order to pick your top 5 qb's. you could have a manning that is like arod, lighting up the scoreboards in the regular season then someone pulling out his confident chip in the postseason. or someone like brady( before this season) who barely won, but in the end he won. That is why people like manning better, because he is the homegrown kid who puts up the stats and should just dance his way to the super bowl podium. So when a no name tom brady( who is that) wins three it is annoying because it goes against our culture. You want the bigger, faster and better(stats wise to win as we have grown up too) to win.

as far as the list i think it is pretty correct. especially for brett as he is a great guy and all, but comn for the amount of years he is playing. He is the leader in int's, you cant just overlook that even though he has got a ring. Everyone loves him, so no one has got the cajones to challenge him on whether he should still be playing

To finish up this is where i look at which qb is the best. If everyone has an average defence and an average offense, it is 2 minutes to go and you are down 10, going 90 yards. Now your whole offense and defence makes a differnce here but comn, do u want your stats boy that is more worried about his next skit with jimmy fallon and is a unknown in this big pressure situation. or do you want a montana who look like he just had a rum and coke, cool as can be, reading the defence and understanding it all, he has do this before. Like it has been said before, the game is easy and you are a star when your winning, but when the game is tough and your coming from behind , thats a legend. thats the games i remember and the qb's i know i want to be in that situation

sorry for the rant but u guys get my point in all of this.
 
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Your point about the Steelers and the roids is valid, but to take your central theme to it's proper destination, it's 500% more likely that Bradshaw was a better QB than, say Tarkenton, because the results speak for themselves.

I'm just going to repeat what everyone keeps ignoring - the results which you speak of are not 100% due to Bradshaw. I brought up estimates earlier in the thread to show this, which were either mocked or ignored, but the point is that the QB isn't nearly as important to the "W" as you guys think. he doesn't play defense, he doesn't play Special Teams, he's not one of 5 lineman, he doesn't catch the balls he is throwing, he's not a running back etc, etc. if you think 50% or even 30% of a "W" is b/c of the quarterback, you're just not thinking straight, or you don't understand football.

re: Bradshaws quality as a winner, here are his actual results in the final game of the playoffs, when the pressure was highest

1972: 5-10 for 80 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT in loss to Miama (poor game)
1973: 12-25 for 167 yards, 2 TD, 3 INT in loss to Oakland (poor game)
1974: 9-14 for 96 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT in win over Minn (did very little)
1975: 9-19 for 209 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT in win over Dallas (good game)
1976: 14-35 for 176 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT in loss to Oakland (poor game)
1977: 19-37 for 177 yards, 1 TD, 3 INT in loss to Denver (poor game)
1978: 17-30 for 318 yards, 4 TD, 1 INT in win over Dallas (excellent game)
1979: 14-21 for 309 yards, 2 TD, 3 INT in win over Rams (decent game)
1982: 28-39 for 325 yards, 2 TD, 2 INT in loss to SDG (good game)

so when the pressure was highest, he played 4 poor games, 3 good games, 1 decent game, and 1 where he did very little

I'll give you that he played excellent & good in the 2 SB wins over Dallas. he played ok in the SB win over the Rams, but people seems to gloss over the 3 INT's he threw. and he did almost nothing in the win over Minn.

and in various other huge games, he came up very empty, even though he was playing on a stacked, more talented than the opposition, steroid powered team. what happened in those 1976 and 1977 losses? did he forget what it took be a winner and lead his team? was he just QB'ing those games? or, what actually happened was this: without the injured Franco Harris and Rocky Bleier, the Raiders were able to tee off on Bradshaw, and he was terrible. in 1977, the defense faltered, and Bradshaw the "winner" became "a loser"


in sum, when people think of Bradshaw they think of the 2 good SB wins over Dallas, but forget about lots of other poor or mediocre games he played when the pressure was highest. when his defense played down from a superhuman level, or when he was without 2 great RB's, he was just a pretty good QB. give Tarkenton that league best defense and awesome running game, and he comes away with SB rings too. without them, he wasn't able to pull off a SB win either
 
Everyone that grew up watching those two has the same opinion. Maybe there's a reason?

Fran Tarkenton was my favorite player growing up, so I'm biased. But my opinion was always that Fran Tarkenton (although not the best QB of his era) was a significantly better QB than Bradshaw. Is that what you meant by "same opinion"?
 
Fran Tarkenton was my favorite player growing up, so I'm biased. But my opinion was always that Fran Tarkenton (although not the best QB of his era) was a significantly better QB than Bradshaw. Is that what you meant by "same opinion"?

I think he meant "besides you", and "besides NFL players and NFL coaches they competed against"
 
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this stuff bring a tear to my eye, but it doesn't take away from the fact that he's been just a "good" QB for nearly 10 years now.

now, he certainly had a good and long career, but he's not a top 5 all time qb

Are you one of the ones in the Brady camp that dreams of how could Tommy could be if he played in a Dome? I will reiterate, Favre has more TD passes than ANY OTHER QB in the league. In addition, he plays OUTDOORS, in GREEN BAY for chrissakes! Ever heard of the "frozen tundra"?
 
Are you one of the ones in the Brady camp that dreams of how could Tommy could be if he played in a Dome? I will reiterate, Favre has more TD passes than ANY OTHER QB in the league. In addition, he plays OUTDOORS, in GREEN BAY for chrissakes! Ever heard of the "frozen tundra"?

Elway played outdoors in Denver, put up similar or better #'s than Favre. and btw, there is no longer any such thing as "Frozen Tundra". The underground heating and drainage system was redone in 1997 (wiki). that field in GB was far better than the grass field at Foxboro -did you know that they can keep it warm enough to grow grass even in the winter?

anyways, not sure why you got all riled up, I said that Favre is Top 10 all time.
 
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Elway played outdoors in Denver, put up similar or better #'s than Favre. and btw, there is no longer any such thing as "Frozen Tundra". The underground heating and drainage system was redone in 1997 (wiki). that field in GB was far better than the grass field at Foxboro -did you know that they can keep it warm enough to grow grass even in the winter?

anyways, not sure why you got all riled up, I said that Favre is Top 10 all time.

Oh, I'm not riled up. To me, top ten is not "over rated". Just reiterating that Sal is off base with calling Favre "over rated".
 
Oh, I'm not riled up. To me, top ten is not "over rated". Just reiterating that Sal is off base with calling Favre "over rated".

well, this is where the subjective nature of "overrated" gets tricky. if you say Favre is the best QB of all time, then I think you are overrating him. if you say he's top 10 all time, then I think you are rating him just fine.

calling someone "overrated" assumes YOUR perception of how OTHER people rate him is the same as the ACTUAL general perception of him - too high!
 
Elway played outdoors in Denver, put up similar or better #'s than Favre. and btw, there is no longer any such thing as "Frozen Tundra". The underground heating and drainage system was redone in 1997 (wiki). that field in GB was far better than the grass field at Foxboro -did you know that they can keep it warm enough to grow grass even in the winter?

anyways, not sure why you got all riled up, I said that Favre is Top 10 all time.

Denver is not Green Bay! Not even close!!!
 
I'm just going to put my final word in on this to summarize my opinions.
1) You play football to win
2) Winning Championships isnt about who has the best stats. You cant pretend its Madden and trade players and see if the results are the same. PEOPLE win Championships not statistics.
3) QBs are by far, the most important part of every team, and have been for years and years.
4) Championships are won by making big plays in big situations (and not making poor plays in big situations). That cannot be accounted for in statistics.
5) It is possible for a QB to get a ring by being in the right place at the right time. It is moronic to think you can get 4 without being critical to that success.
6) There has NEVER been a good QB in the NFL that would not have won at least 2 Championships in their career if they rose to the pressure and made plays in the clutch to EARN those Championships.
7) Since every great Champion QB started on a terrible team, it is a lame excuse to say a QB didnt win because of the team around him. Marino, for example had 15+ years, with contending teams, a HOF coach, and talent all around him, and NEVER ONCE made the plays in the big game that meant victory instead of defeat.
8) By definition, the job of the QB is to WIN. Everything he does on every play is in order to win, not to build stats.
9) I could accept that circumstance, coaching, talent surrounding a qB could make the difference between winning 1 SB and 2, or even 2 vs 4.
I can no way accept that there is ANYTHING that is a reaonable explanation to say a guy who never won compares to a guy who won FOUR SBs.
10) When they start playing the game for statistics, and whoever gets the most stats win, then I'll start giving credit to guys who build stats. Until then, I analyze stats this way:
blah, blah, blah, blah stats + win = GOOD
blah, blah, blah, blah stats + loss = BAD
 
Oops, one more point.

What is the purpose of statistics to a QB?
If I am not mistaken putting up numbers is done in an effort to WIN.

How do you place the same value on the statistics that did not accomplish the win as you do on those that did?
Bradshaws statistics were the cumulation of the plays he made that resulted in 4 SB rings.
Tarkentons were the culmination of the plays he made that resluted in none.

How can Tarkentons have more value than bradshaws when they resulted in nothing?
 
Fran Tarkenton was my favorite player growing up, so I'm biased. But my opinion was always that Fran Tarkenton (although not the best QB of his era) was a significantly better QB than Bradshaw. Is that what you meant by "same opinion"?

Did you post it before? I missed it.

I thought I read all the posts and merely reported what i observed.

I'm sure a lot of people think Tarkenton's better than Bradshaw, some think he's in the top two or three.

I noticed other posters had strong opinions about him and I had first mentioned i didn't think he lived up to his stats.

Personal opinion, neither one is in my very top list.
 
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A good example of a statistically good game with one play that showed the difference between a winer and loser was Feeley's game against the Pats.

Despite an early Int he was otplaying Brady according to QB rating. All he had to do was run some clock down and be careful with the ball.

He goes for the endzone and blows the game.

One play.

He couldn't relax and handle the pressure, he wanted to end it. That's why he never made it, the arm and everything else are major league.
 
well, this is where the subjective nature of "overrated" gets tricky. if you say Favre is the best QB of all time, then I think you are overrating him. if you say he's top 10 all time, then I think you are rating him just fine.

calling someone "overrated" assumes YOUR perception of how OTHER people rate him is the same as the ACTUAL general perception of him - too high!

Does Sal think that many call him the best ever?? Usually, you don't hear his name mentioned as top 3-4. Marino, Elway, Montana of the retired guys. The younger you are, the less you stick guys like Unitas, Bradshaw, Staubach, etc.., IMO, too many really good guys to rank them in any particular order. Brett is obviously a guy that should always be mentioned with the top 5-10 QB's of all time.
 
A good example of a statistically good game with one play that showed the difference between a winer and loser was Feeley's game against the Pats.

Despite an early Int he was otplaying Brady according to QB rating. All he had to do was run some clock down and be careful with the ball.

He goes for the endzone and blows the game.

One play.

He couldn't relax and handle the pressure, he wanted to end it. That's why he never made it, the arm and everything else are major league.
Did Feeley CAL that play? I understand it was his decision to throw it, but why that route was ever considered is beyond me. Looked like a call Cam Cameron would make, not Andy Reid:eek:
 
6) There has NEVER been a good QB in the NFL that would not have won at least 2 Championships in their career if they rose to the pressure and made plays in the clutch to EARN those Championships.

you just said that Dan Marino & Brett Favre weren't "good" quarterbacks.

with that in mind, I'll just say that your opinions with regard to football are 100% worthless.

good night and good luck
 
A good example of a statistically good game with one play that showed the difference between a winer and loser was Feeley's game against the Pats.

Despite an early Int he was otplaying Brady according to QB rating. All he had to do was run some clock down and be careful with the ball.

He goes for the endzone and blows the game.

One play.

He couldn't relax and handle the pressure, he wanted to end it. That's why he never made it, the arm and everything else are major league.

well, by both traditional (QB Rating) and advanced (DPAR) metrics, Brady had a better game than Feeley

the stats are a pretty decent reflection of his play. he played great, but made a few mistakes, and that shows up in the #'s
 
you just said that Dan Marino & Brett Favre weren't "good" quarterbacks.

with that in mind, I'll just say that your opinions with regard to football are 100% worthless.

good night and good luck

No. I said they had at least 2 opportunites to win Championships and failed. (Favre won 1)
So did hundreds and hundreds of others.
That is why they are good QBs but not in the class of the QBs who come through and win Championships.
 
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