Sacks allowed

[PatsChamp88]

It would be great to get some type of Offensive Line help especially at the left side in day one and follow up with an quality OLB pass rusher. If I recall right Cassel was sacked 46 times this season the most of any QB. It's not that our line is bad but when someone gets injured the line certainly plays much worse we need better depth.

 

[Kontradiction]

The MAIN reason? There wasnt one. There were many resaons as to why they lost that game. The O-line sucking was only one reason. So don't start that crappy argument again.

Im' not a huge fan of the o-line, but i find it hard to believe that they turned to crap one season removed from being REALLY good. You cannot say that it was all Brady during the 07 season. There were times when they snapped the ball, Brady dropped back, called Gisele on his cell phone, waved to her on tv, and then launched the ball to Moss 80 yards down the field. There were alot of times that Brady just stood there thanks to great protection.

Now, as for last season. I don't get it. As some have pointed out, maybe they needed to get used to Cassel. All I know (being a casual homer fan) is that they looked aweful, then Neal comes back, and they start playing better. Linemen always say that its nice to have some stability on the line. Maybe it wasnt as much Cassel, as it was Neal. Not that that helps when he gets injured again. Either way, Im satisfied with our starters, just not the backups. Though I did like what i saw from Levoir when he was in.

So, in your opinion, what was the main reason why the offense couldn't put points on the board?

Look, I never said they sucked. In fact, I've defended the o-line many times on this forum using the same argument that you are using. But you're delusional if you do not think the line (especially the left side) could use an upgrade with a day one draft pick.

 

[mgteich]

The reason for the loss in the 2007-2008 post-season was the same as in the 2006-2007 post-season, the inability to stop a late drive. A team does not deserve a win if they cannot stop the opponent with 82 yards to go with three minutes left in the game.

If you believe that the reason that the patriots did not win in the 2007-2008 season was that the best offense in the history of the game was not good enough, then that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Ditto for the 2006-2007 season.

The rest of us have been interested in the complete rebuilding of the defense that has been taking place in the past two years for a reason. Hobbs is the senior member of the secondary, and he is in his rookie contract. We've added four linebackers (Mayo, Crable, Guyton and Redd) after the 2008 Super Bowl. We've added four defensive backs in the past two years (Meriwather, Wilhite, Wheatley and Richardson). We will add even more this year in the secondary and perhaps also at linebacker. Belichick understood and understands what the issues were in both playoff runs, even if you do not.

18-1 season. That's right. What was the main reason for that one loss? Better yet, what was the reason for the lack of offensive productivity up until the 4th quarter? 2007 will be two years old by the time this season rolls around. An upgrade with first round talent on the left side is not uncalled for (although I still wouldn't be disappointed if we pick linebacker because that's just as much of a need).

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

So, in your opinion, what was the main reason why the offense couldn't put points on the board?

Look, I never said they sucked. In fact, I've defended the o-line many times on this forum using the same argument that you are using. But you're delusional if you do not think the line (especially the left side) could use an upgrade with a day one draft pick.

There wasnt a MAIN reason. thats my whole point. O-line, play calling, rb's blitz pickup, lack of adjustments....the list is endless. All im saying is that the SB loss wasnt completely on the shoulders of the o-line, which alot of people on this board seem to think it is. In the end, the offense put up enough points to win, then the football gods sat down in their seats at the stadium, and they took it all away. such is life.

Now, where did i say anything about a day one pick for o-line? I would only be delusional if i said BB wont pick an o-lineman in the draft. Nobody knows what he'll do. I already stated that im not happy with the depth on the o-line, so if BB drafts a guy with the first pick, so be it. Im not opposed to it, but i would prefer we address the defense first. O-line simply isnt the biggest weakness on this team.

 

[DaBruinz]

I think a lot of those had to do w/Cassel holding on to the ball too long when he started early on in his 1st few games. Down the stretch they were much better.

That's funny because what I saw in the 1st 8 games was a left side of the offensive line that was extremely mediocre and inconsistent in their play.

Mankins, Koppen and Light got tossed around early on with the zone scheme. When the Pats went to more in-line blocking, they did much better.

 

[DaBruinz]

I think we could actually use another center. I've seen Koppen get beat terribly a couple of times (J. Williams Chargers). He got pushed backwards a couple of times.

No matter how few sacks the right side has given up, we could still use some help there, though i think a day 1 pick is maybe not necessary.

Jammal Williams is, arguably, the best NT in the league. He abused centers in every game... Not just Koppen..

That being said, the entire O-line was inconsistent for much of the 1st half of the season.

 

[JSn]

Is it ridiculous to say it may be time to upgrade - or plan for next year - the LT position? Can we do better than Light with a fresh body in the draft?

 

[SunnyDenmark]

It is supposed to be a very deep draft for the center position this year. Maybe getting a decent center with position flexability (guard) would be a good use of one of the 2 second round picks or one of the 2 third rounders (Pats will hopefully get a 3rd round comp pick due to Samuels departure and huge FA contract / Probowl appearance).

Plug them into occasional guard rotation duty this year (and then when Neal gets his usual injury) and then in a year or two, he should have learned enough to be able to make the line calls which a center has to learn. By then Koppen will have been in the league for 7-8 years so we would have certainly gotten our 5th round value enough by then!

 

[Kontradiction]

The reason for the loss in the 2007-2008 post-season was the same as in the 2006-2007 post-season, the inability to stop a late drive. A team does not deserve a win if they cannot stop the opponent with 82 yards to go with three minutes left in the game.

If enough points were put up on the board, the defense would not have needed to stop that late drive. That's the point. The greatest offense that the world has ever seen was only able to muster 14 points in the entire game while being held to just 7 in the 4th quarter. Our defense held their offense to just 3 throughout the entire game. Like it or not, we were held to our lowest point total in any Super Bowl we had ever been in. "Why", you ask? Because Brady was only able to stand on two feet for only a split second before being hit or sacked. By the way, in 2006 we weren't able to stop the Colts in the second half... not just late.

If you believe that the reason that the patriots did not win in the 2007-2008 season was that the best offense in the history of the game was not good enough, then that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Ditto for the 2006-2007 season.

Where did I say the offense wasn't good enough? I think they were and still are plenty good. As I've said before, I've went to RIDICULOUS lengths in this forum to defend the O-Line. However, that doesn't mean that I don't think we couldn't use an upgrade on the left side. Light is getting up there and it would be a great idea to upgrade him on day 1.

The rest of us have been interested in the complete rebuilding of the defense that has been taking place in the past two years for a reason. Hobbs is the senior member of the secondary, and he is in his rookie contract. We've added four linebackers (Mayo, Crable, Guyton and Redd) after the 2008 Super Bowl. We've added four defensive backs in the past two years (Meriwather, Wilhite, Wheatley and Richardson). We will add even more this year in the secondary and perhaps also at linebacker. Belichick understood and understands what the issues were in both playoff runs, even if you do not.

You simply do not seem to be understanding me. I want the defense to be re-tooled as much as anybody else here. If you want, I can give you links of my past posts stating such. AND, I also wouldn't be disappointed if we decided to go LB or secondary in the first round of the draft. All I said in this thread is that I believe an upgrade can be used on the left side of the offensive line then used Super Bowl XLII to illustrate that point. Whether we go defense of O-Line in the first round, I will not be disappointed.

 

[Kontradiction]

There wasnt a MAIN reason. thats my whole point. O-line, play calling, rb's blitz pickup, lack of adjustments....the list is endless.

Well, we agree on Gicksauce and we agree that the offensive line was an issue in that ungodly game. I think the play calling could have been tweaked a LITTLE bit, but not much. The reason for that is the defense the Giants were running. The pressure cut off the deep ball then they let their outside defenders who weren't in on the blitz cut off the screen or any quick pass that the Patriots and Brady (especially) excelled at. I do not blame the RBs at all. Blitz pick-up is something they do well but in this game, there were defenders coming from all sides. A RB can only pick up one blitzer at a time. In this game, there were three of them constantly coming into the backfield. Lack of adjustments can go with the play calling.

All im saying is that the SB loss wasnt completely on the shoulders of the o-line, which alot of people on this board seem to think it is. In the end, the offense put up enough points to win, then the football gods sat down in their seats at the stadium, and they took it all away. such is life.

Let's not kid ourselves. The last touchdown we scored was due to the Giants defense being exhausted. You can tell. The pass rush suddenly went from potent to non-existant and, in between plays, the Giants defensive line all hand their hands on their hips while sucking wind. The reason? They were tired from running around in our backfield all day. Although I will agree that the loss was not COMPLETELY on the shoulders of the line. A miracle catch off the helmet had a little something to do that too. In the end, we just weren't meant to win that game.

Now, where did i say anything about a day one pick for o-line? I would only be delusional if i said BB wont pick an o-lineman in the draft. Nobody knows what he'll do. I already stated that im not happy with the depth on the o-line, so if BB drafts a guy with the first pick, so be it. Im not opposed to it, but i would prefer we address the defense first. O-line simply isnt the biggest weakness on this team.

I can agree here. The defense does need a lot of help and re-tooling. But I would not be disappointed to see either a first round or day one pick used on the offensive line to upgrade at LT. The only question is whether or not there will be a good LT when we pick.

 

[brdmaverick]

I think a lot of those had to do w/Cassel holding on to the ball too long when he started early on in his 1st few games. Down the stretch they were much better.

yes, also add in the fact that Cassel relied more on his legs than some other QBs.

QBs that have the ability to run around in the pocket and try to create plays. Unfortunately, sometimes they end up running into trouble.

 

[mgteich]

It is difficult to prevent a weak QB from being sacked.

I found this on another board

Light ranked 23rd of all LTs
Mankins 26th out of all LGs
Koppen 29th out of all Centers
Neal 12th out of all RGs
Kaczur 8th out of all RTs

I understand that early in the season the change from Tom to Matt was rough because Tom would always audible the line protection but the stats are very alarming. Our left side was terrible considering Light, Mankins, Koppen were supposed to be our best linemen. This also shows us that Kaczur takes too much harsh criticism but I however, noticed he played well last year

Hopefully this unit steps it up next year because pass protection was scary but i'll give them credit for run blocking which we were solid at.

Thoughts?

 

[NE39]

I think last year was as much to do with Cassel as the OL. I think the OL played well overall last year, especially given the improvement in the running game and conservative game plans early on. That doesn't mean the Pats can't upgrade, but I don't think you can judge them just based on the sacks given up.

In the Super Bowl, the Giants just pushed the team around. It wasn't just pass protection, the Pats couldn't run either. They had 45 yards rushing the whole day, and only 10 rushes for 20 yards at the half.

ST were an issue as well. The Pats average drive start was their own 30, while the Giants average drive start was the 39. That is a big difference in such a close game.

The Giants were just the better team on that day. They were fired up and more physical.

 

[crowell33]

Reiss ( Boston Globe ) numerous posts about Koppen not being a roster lock at least make a little more sense to me now. Additionally, I felt the problem with the line was on the right side. Looks like I was wrong.

 

[letekro]

Reiss ( Boston Globe ) numerous posts about Koppen not being a roster lock at least make a little more sense to me now. Additionally, I felt the problem with the line was on the right side. Looks like I was wrong.

I would question the methodology. I have no idea how you go about ascribing sacks to particular offensive linemen. It seems that it is a group effort. What if the right guard screws up and the center has to help, which allows the center's man to get the sack? What about stunts....who gets the blame for the sack? The guy who was blocking the stunter, or the guy who was responsible (if anyone was responsible) for the blitz gap.

I'm not sure what you can tell from these stats. The Eagles obviously don't care about them - they paid millions and a first round pick for a player whom the stats purport to be the worst tackle in the league.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I would question the methodology. I have no idea how you go about ascribing sacks to particular offensive linemen. It seems that it is a group effort. What if the right guard screws up and the center has to help, which allows the center's man to get the sack? What about stunts....who gets the blame for the sack? The guy who was blocking the stunter, or the guy who was responsible (if anyone was responsible) for the blitz gap.

I'm not sure what you can tell from these stats. The Eagles obviously don't care about them - they paid millions and a first round pick for a player whom the stats purport to be the worst tackle in the league.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, Peters did have an awful year. He admitted as much, and even outright stated that he maybe just wasn't trying all that hard since he was unhappy with his contract (which makes it all the more mind-boggling that he received the contract that he did). It seems more like the Eagles decided that last year was an anomaly than that it wasn't really all that bad.

 

[Deus Irae]

I found this on another board

Light ranked 23rd of all LTs
Mankins 26th out of all LGs
Koppen 29th out of all Centers
Neal 12th out of all RGs
Kaczur 8th out of all RTs

I understand that early in the season the change from Tom to Matt was rough because Tom would always audible the line protection but the stats are very alarming. Our left side was terrible considering Light, Mankins, Koppen were supposed to be our best linemen. This also shows us that Kaczur takes too much harsh criticism but I however, noticed he played well last year

Hopefully this unit steps it up next year because pass protection was scary but i'll give them credit for run blocking which we were solid at.

Thoughts?

Neal on PUP was a huge problem. Coupled with Cassel having a learning curve, it was devastating to the sack statistics. The difference from the beginning of the season to the end is enormous.

 

[unoriginal]

One thing that has been lost in this discussion so far is that Matt Light's 7.5 sacks allowed in 16 games is pretty much his career average. He gave up the same number of sacks in 2004 and 2006 and one less in 2007. It was not a "bad" year for him.

Koppen and Mankins had "bad" years. Mankins allowed 1 sack in 2007, Koppen 0.

Billy Yates' 6 sacks in 7 games is abysmal for an offensive guard: Neal has never allowed more than 3.5 in a season.

EDIT: just for emphasis, if you projected Yates out to a full season, he would have allowed 14 sacks. 14.

 

[PatsFan37]

EDIT: just for emphasis, if you projected Yates out to a full season, he would have allowed 14 sacks. 14.

If you projected Yates out for a full season, you would have seen O'Connell play.

 

[BradyFTW!]

If you projected Yates out for a full season, you would have seen O'Connell play.

If you projected Yates out for a full season, you very well might have seen Gutierrez. And a funeral.