Rodney adjusts his contract [merged]

[Mike the Brit]

So your theory is that the Patriots made a clandestine move 2 months ago in order to free up 700k that everyone can clearly see they did not need at the time and still have not used? And you are aware what you are suggesting a "behind-the-scenes agreement to compensate him in some other way" is a violation of the salary cap?

I'd say "wild speculation" rather than "theory". It's all I could come up with that made sense.

Is it a violation of the salary cap if they have a "gentlemen's agreement" to employ the person when he's no longer an NFL player. If so, no, I didn't know.

Is that more logical than the idea that they asked a veteran they felt was opverpaid for a give back? That is a very standard NFL practice the BB-SP administration has used often over the years with players like Ted Johnson, Willie, Lawyer, etc.

I'd really like to see some examples with figures of past give-backs. To my memory, the Patriots have done this (or tried to) only when BOTH the discrepancy between the salary due and their valuation was quite drastic AND they were up against the limits of the cap.

But I am open to correction by those with superior information.

sretcarahc net

 

[Oswlek]

So your theory is that the Patriots made a clandestine move 2 months ago in order to free up 700k that everyone can clearly see they did not need at the time and still have not used? And you are aware what you are suggesting a "behind-the-scenes agreement to compensate him in some other way" is a violation of the salary cap?

Is that more logical than the idea that they asked a veteran they felt was opverpaid for a give back? That is a very standard NFL practice the BB-SP administration has used often over the years with players like Ted Johnson, Willie, Lawyer, etc.

The problem with that theory is that the majority of the guys that people mention were either *clearly* going into dummy years or cap space was at a premium. The only one that is even similar to Rodney is Milloy and as I said before, they were willing to give him $.3 million more than Rodney was scheduled to earn after Milloy's reduction. This despite the fact that the cap was much lower and Milloy was a non-factor the year before.

I could see it if the gave Rodney the ability to earn the entire $700k back through incentives, but they only gave him $200k in incentives. I just don't see why NE would go after that $500k when the player in question is still quite good, is a true locker room leader and they have absolutely no need for it. Why aren't the going after Bruschi's cap room? He came back from a major injury only to get hurt again. And he wasn't nearly as good when he saw the field last year as when Rodney did.

There is nothing clandestine about it. The facts just don't add up.

 

[Miguel]

Obviously, the Patriots wanted a lower cap number – but that is something that we can presume they always want. The real question is “why did they want it particularly badly at that particular time?” and “why did they choose Rodney Harrison as the vehicle for arriving at it?”

The Pats could have achieved the same amount of cost savings by converting $1.4 million of Harrison's $2.7 million salary into a signing bonus. But they did not.

The simplest answer to your questions is that the Pats felt that Harrison was not worth $2.7 million.

 

[Miguel]

Have they gone to players and demanded that they re-negotiate their contracts or be cut? My memory is that they’ve done this only rarely, the main cases being ones where the final years of the contract had hugely escalated “dummy years” (Willie McGinest). Moreover, I think that in all cases they’ve been close to the cap limit, so there could be no argument that they are being “cheap” – the money was needed to retain other players.

If the Pats needed cap room, they could have find other ways to create it rather than asking a vet to take a pay cut. Example - In 2003 the Pats released Milloy. They could have found other ways to create cap room but chose not to.

What’s more, that is, in my view, good business practice. What’s the point of having a contract if it isn’t going to be honoured? If the team goes back to a player and demands a re-negotiation whenever he performs below expectations, surely it’s inviting players to hold out whenever they feel that they have outperformed their contract. That’s not a good way to do business – the team needs stability and a minimum of distractions from salary issues.

FYI - The Patriots are not the only team who have asked vets to take a pay cut even when the team is way under the cap.

 

[Mike the Brit]

The Pats could have achieved the same amount of cost savings by converting $1.4 million of Harrison's $2.7 million salary into a signing bonus. But they did not.

In the short term, yes. But in the long term it has to be counted -- especially since it seems very likely that this will be RH's last season.

The simplest answer to your questions is that the Pats felt that Harrison was not worth $2.7 million.

Perhaps so, and in that case I would be very disappointed with the way that the team was being managed.

If the Pats want to avoid future Branchs/Samuels/our ex-kicker holding out for the last few thousand dollars that the market will give them, they have to be perceived as "fair dealers" by the players. You can be pretty sure that holding a team leader over a barrel when they aren't in a cap crisis would be noted by his fellow players.

But, on the other hand, without a credible threat, why should he agree? I just can't believe that they were seriously contemplating leaving the safety position in the hands of Sanders, Wilson, Meriweather, Hawkins and Scott.

So, on balance, I'm sceptical about your explanation and am still puzzled.

sretcarahc net

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I must admit it's almost comical to see the level of angst among some in this thread when there is apparently none on the part of the player...

Here's a thought for the conspiracy theorists to mull...

Never waste cap space you appear to have today because you may need it down the line. Rodney is entering the dummy years of his contract, even if the gap at the level of his deal, signed at 30 when SD was already prepared to jettison him seems comparatively inconsequential. His deal was crafted to average $2.4M per. Most players signed after 30 never see that average pan out. Rodney has a shot at coming close.

Perhaps the team approached him with this scenario. We hope you are able to finish our your contract here with dignity. (Rodney nods...) But the reality is we drafted a young safety in the first round this year because the opportunity presented itself and frankly none of us are getting any younger and you've missed most of back to back seasons and that has really hurt us as much as it hurt you. (Rodney, no ****...) Rather than take the easy road and convert much of your salary into bonus and dump a million of it into 2008, fairly guaranteeing the only way you will play here in 2008 if you still want to is on a veteran minimum deal due to escalating cap value concerns, let's just take a little off the top and room to create cap maneuverability in 2008 (which currently projects at $3.7M but only .7 in "dead" cap) so you can remain without having to be subjected to a dramatic veteran minimum giveback in your final contract season. (Rodney, hell yeah...) You likely will be mentoring/rotating with this youngster going forward and that could even help insure you avoid injury and can return in 2008. Then we likely trim your final year salary heading into 2008, but not by over $2M to a minimum deal. Maybe more like we cut it in half and you play for $1.5M with a $2.2M cap hit. And we all live happily ever after. (Rodney, I like the sound of that - I give up $500K this year to a team who has stuck with me through two injury plagued seasons for a shot to make $1.5M more than I most likely anticipated I'd be earning at 35-36 and get a shot at two more trips to the confetti game...where do I sign?)

The prospect of cutting Rodney in 2008 with a $1.7M dead cap hit and a $3M cap saving unless he plays for veteran minimum is just too unsettling. So they have done something together cooperatively to make that scenario less likely. At a cost of $500K to the player this year which creates a scenario where he has a legitimate shot to make that up or more when he either doesn't have to settle for veteran minimum next year or doesn't have to retire to avoid being cut for cap purposes.

I think this appeals to a guy who loves playing for the confetti, coming off of two seasons where he didn't have a chance to. He's won two rings here but missed out on ending that first game on the field. He ended the second one in style. I think he wants the distinct possability to exist that he has two more shots an ending at least one more with Rodney Harrison on the field.

 

[dryheat44]

Here's a thought for the conspiracy theorists to mull...


Perhaps the team approached him with this scenario. We hope you are able to finish our your contract here with dignity. (Rodney nods...) But the reality is we drafted a young safety in the first round this year because the opportunity presented itself and frankly none of us are getting any younger and you've missed most of back to back seasons and that has really hurt us as much as it hurt you. (Rodney, no ****...) Rather than take the easy road and convert much of your salary into bonus and dump a million of it into 2008, fairly guaranteeing the only way you will play here in 2008 if you still want to is on a veteran minimum deal due to escalating cap value concerns, let's just take a little off the top and room to create cap maneuverability in 2008 (which currently projects at $3.7M but only .7 in "dead" cap) so you can remain without having to be subjected to a dramatic veteran minimum giveback in your final contract season. (Rodney, hell yeah...) You likely will be mentoring/rotating with this youngster going forward and that could even help insure you avoid injury and can return in 2008. Then we likely trim your final year salary heading into 2008, but not by over $2M to a minimum deal. Maybe more like we cut it in half and you play for $1.5M with a $2.2M cap hit. And we all live happily ever after. (Rodney, I like the sound of that - I give up $500K this year to a team who has stuck with me through two injury plagued seasons for a shot to make $1.5M more than I most likely anticipated I'd be earning at 35-36 and get a shot at two more trips to the confetti game...where do I sign?)

I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory. In fact, it's an easily plausible scenario. However, I would think that Rodney as a free agent would land a million+ dollar signing bonus on a two-year deal and therefore not need to worry about getting cut. However, I can't claim to have the pulse on the 2008 free agency market.

 

[Miguel]

To quote Will Munny, Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

And yet all of the posts that showed surprise/angst that the Patriots dare to ask Harrison to accept a paycut.

As the Salary Cap goes up, I think the dollars you spend on salaries has to go up with it, otherwise you're at a disadvantage. By this I mean three years ago, Belichick probably had a number for a number one cornerback. Now with so much more cap space, that number ought to go up proportionately, or other teams are going to steal every free agent on the market, and you hurt your chance of re-signing your own impending FAs. What else are you going to spend it on?

To greatly oversimplify, let's pretend the cap is $100. In BBs "Value" maybe:

Franchise QB: 10
Starting RB: 4
3rd Down RB: 2
Left Tackle: 3
Other starting OL: 10
#1 WR: 4
#2 WR: 2
Other WRs: 4
Starting TE: 3
Other offensive backups: 4
Starting DL: 17
Starting LB: 13
Starting S: 4
#1 CB: 3
Other CBs: 7
Reserve DL and LBs: 4
Reserve DBs: 3
STers: 3

Now the cap goes up to 130. Does it make sense to keep players' values the same?

I never suggested otherwise.

Even though in a real-dollar system they'd have the same value. However, assuming Bob Kraft spends to the cap, the logical thing to do is to proportionately up your value chart. In other words, tying value to market conditions.

Isn't that what I have been saying is what happened all along.

Please note that Rodney's salary did not go up as the cap went up. It went down along with the percentage that his salary is taking up of the Patriots' adjusted cap.

It makes no sense to me why you start cutting someone's pay when you have a larger cap and no apparent need to clear space.

tying value to market conditions makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Miguel]

I just can't believe that they were seriously contemplating leaving the safety position in the hands of Sanders, Wilson, Meriweather, Hawkins and Scott.

Harrison must have. Why else agree to a paycut when the team did not need the extra cap space??

So the Pats feel that Harrison is not worth $2.7 million and asked him to take a pay cut but are not willing to release him if he declines. If he says no, the Pats have to release him. Otherwise, they will never be able to get other players to agree to accept a paycut.

 

[Miguel]

You can be pretty sure that holding a team leader over a barrel when they aren't in a cap crisis would be noted by his fellow players

I am also sure that none of his fellow players have a problem with what happened - a 34-year old player who has missed a good number of games over the past two years now has a salary that is more in line with his market value.

 

[Miguel]

The facts just don't add up.

So how do you explain what happened??

 

[Mike the Brit]

I am also sure that none of his fellow players have a problem with what happened - a 34-year old player who has missed a good number of games over the past two years now has a salary that is more in line with his market value.

Well, if his fellow players don't have a problem, I do.

If a player shows up to camp out of condition and doesn't participate in off-season activities then I can see an argument. But shaving someone's salary because they put their body on the line for the team and were badly injured doing it doesn't sound like the Patriots management I and other fans have admired.

Harrison must have. Why else agree to a paycut when the team did not need the extra cap space??

So the Pats feel that Harrison is not worth $2.7 million and asked him to take a pay cut but are not willing to release him if he declines. If he says no, the Pats have to release him. Otherwise, they will never be able to get other players to agree to accept a paycut.

Yes. Well, that's my argument. Even assuming the attitude, it doesn't make rational sense to engage in brinkmanship with Rodney (a proud individual if ever there was one) at this stage. If they really believe that Rodney is only marginal to the team, threatening him with a cut after evaluating his performance in training camp makes much more sense.

And no, I don't have a better explanation ...

 

[dryheat44]

And yet all of the posts that showed surprise/angst that the Patriots dare to ask Harrison to accept a paycut.


I never suggested otherwise.


Isn't that what I have been saying is what happened all along.

Please note that Rodney's salary did not go up as the cap went up. It went down along with the percentage that his salary is taking up of the Patriots' adjusted cap.



tying value to market conditions makes perfect sense to me.

I can only infer, then, that you feel that Rodney is no longer a top notch strong safety. Or just one that can't be counted on. Which would make your posts dead-on. Because the market trend for good players overall has been sharply upward. In fact, besides aging running backs, it seems all players are making much more money come contract time.

That just doesn't jibe with what I see on the field. Keep in mind that Donovan Darius, who will be 32 Opening Day, just signed a free agent contract extremely late in free agency for three years, 7.1 million. He's missed about as much time over the last two years that Rodney has. I can't imagine that Rodney wouldn't think he could do better if the Patriots cut him.

 

[Oswlek]

So how do you explain what happened??

Why the snobby attitude? Just because you are a moderator here and the resident capologist doesn't automatically make your viewpoint superior to everyone else's.

I have explained my case and said clearly that I have no idea what other conditions must exist, just that I think that they do.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I can only infer, then, that you feel that Rodney is no longer a top notch strong safety. Or just one that can't be counted on. Which would make your posts dead-on. Because the market trend for good players overall has been sharply upward. In fact, besides aging running backs, it seems all players are making much more money come contract time.

That just doesn't jibe with what I see on the field. Keep in mind that Donovan Darius, who will be 32 Opening Day, just signed a free agent contract extremely late in free agency for three years, 7.1 million. He's missed about as much time over the last two years that Rodney has. I can't imagine that Rodney wouldn't think he could do better if the Patriots cut him.

Who knows what Darius actually signed for. It could be a one year prove it deal with little signing bonus and an option bonus or backloaded salaries he never sees. He left without a contract after his initial visit to the black hole, so who knows how hard he had to squeeze or if he got what he was looking for or just settled for what was available. Still, at 32 and 2 years younger than 2007 Rodney, he got a deal that averages a little less than what Rodney signed for at 30 ($2.4M per average) under an $80 some odd million dollar cap in 2003. So I'm not so sure the market is trending sharply upward for 30++ players coming off back to back injury plagued seasons. Besides, you often have to go play mentor/assistant hall monitor on a loser to get overpaid in your 30's. Just ask Andruzzi and Willie how that works out. Rodney spent a lot of years playing for a loser. I think at this point all that really matters to him is a chance to win for a little longer.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Why the snobby attitude? Just because you are a moderator here and the resident capologist doesn't automatically make your viewpoint superior to everyone else's.

I have explained my case and said clearly that I have no idea what other conditions must exist, just that I think that they do.

That's not snobby...it's just Miguel being Miguel.

 

[solman]

My wild speculation is that perhaps Rodney has a "gentleman's agreement" with the Krafts that he will stay with the team in some role after he retires at the end of the coming season and that this will allow him to recoup the money.

There seems to be continued speculation about "quid pro quos" and "gentleman's agreements" that result in the player receiving money but aren't formal parts of the contract.

It is extremely likely that if the Patriots were caught doing this they would pay for it in draft picks. Considering the minimal benefit and substantial potential consequences (which also include fines and a very reputation hit for the Krafts) the Patriots would be insane to even consider this sort of thing.

 

[solman]

Why the snobby attitude? Just because you are a moderator here and the resident capologist doesn't automatically make your viewpoint superior to everyone else's.

I have explained my case and said clearly that I have no idea what other conditions must exist, just that I think that they do.

Miguel is far slower to anger than me, but dozens of posts putting emotional fandom over the cold hard facts can take their toll even on him.

 

[PatsFan37]

Yes. Well, that's my argument. Even assuming the attitude, it doesn't make rational sense to engage in brinkmanship with Rodney (a proud individual if ever there was one) at this stage. If they really believe that Rodney is only marginal to the team, threatening him with a cut after evaluating his performance in training camp makes much more sense.

We don't know if it's brinkmanship. We don't know what they said or the tenor of the conversation.

Rodney Harrison has always struck me (please don't take that phrase out of context) as having the pride of a Tedy Bruschi rather than a Ty Law. I don't remember him complaining publicly about salary and I suspect if an agent suggested he do so as a negotiating tactic (which might work for him), he would say no.

He was angry with San Diego for thinking he was washed up and injury prone. Now, years later, he has been injured, he is close to retirement. The Patriots have two players in Sanders and Meriweather that represent the future. No question I'd rather have Rodney on the field any day than those two, but market value in the NFL is a function of ability and age, which is why his value is not likely as high as we might think.

As for the nudge-and-wink crowd, it's tough to make any kind of enforceable agreement without violating the salary cap and I'd love to see a vague promise worth a half-million in real dollars.

In this case, I believe the reality is exactly what it appears to be. He took a salary cut because he understood the value wasn't there and they asked him because that is their responsibility.

Next year, when Scott Pioli knocks on Colvin's door, he'll be able to say, it was like this even for Rodney.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Harrison must have. Why else agree to a paycut when the team did not need the extra cap space??

So the Pats feel that Harrison is not worth $2.7 million and asked him to take a pay cut but are not willing to release him if he declines. If he says no, the Pats have to release him. Otherwise, they will never be able to get other players to agree to accept a paycut.

How about, if he says no we never hear about it.

I'm still not buying the "take the cut or be cut" theory. It just does not make sense.