Reiss expects Pats to be fined-deflategate? No farking way

[flasox27]

So your position is even If goodell said or wrote nothing about the pats he can be guilty of defamation? Based on unnamed leaks? Haha. ? Basically, for not responding to what somebody else said. I don't know what form of defamation that would be

Plus defamation on a public figure… Not very easy towin

Let me clarify what I meant. Goodell did not defame the Pats in a LEGAL SENSE by his words or deeds but through his actions and those of his henchmen the reputation of the Pats has been damaged now and in the past beyond repair. Moreover, the teams by the bylaws of the League have abdicated their rights to sue in court so there is no recourse in the case of a biased or corrupt commissioner who punishes certain teams disproportionately which he certainly has done. Based on Kraft's last statement in which endorses the job Goodell is doing, it certainly appears that Kraft has resumed his supine posture.

 

[RayClay]

What i am referring to is the possibility that some posters raised that Goodell will ignore the scientific evidence and in their view bow to the clamour of the mob and punish the pats. The powers were not awarded in a vacuum, if he ignores the evidence and punishes the pats regardless yes IMO there is a basis for court action. He can not allow a violation of the Balls being manipulated on camera during the Vikings/Panthers game to go unpunished and then punish the pats where there is no evidence.


What do you mean damaged beyond repair, the just have to prove it was damaged and I am not talking about a suit to recover damages but to overturn a league punishment.

They could not overturn an internal ruling, they could only award damages.

I'm not a lawyer, but i think you are incorrect in your interpretation of what a civil lawsuit could accomplish.

 

[Ivan]

Because a lawyer and law professor is going to lie about what the NFL constitution says because reasons.

And you call my posts unrealistic!

Yet you have no problem saying that Ted Wells report will be a lie?


There really is no argument that can respond to paranoia so I will just wait and see what the result is when they release the report. Other than that anything I say well get the response

" but but but but but Goodell....... "

As it has throughout these debates. The facts don't matter, all that matters is " but but but but Goodell....... "

 

[flasox27]

Yet you have no problem saying that Ted Wells report will be a lie?


There really is no argument that can respond to paranoia so I will just wait and see what the result is when they release the report. Other than that anything I say well get the response

" but but but but but Goodell....... "

As it has throughout these debates. The facts don't matter, all that matters is " but but but but Goodell.......

You are absolutely right that all that matters is Goodell. Some of us feel that his past history is a good indicator of future results while others feel that he will be persuaded by the facts or the influence of an influential owner to render a fair judgement. We will see which position turns out to be correct and I hope that the latter position is correct.

 

[Ivan]

Some people need to stop being so damn pessimistic about this.

It's not pessimism, you can answer pessimism with facts, it may not cheer them up but they can at least register it. It's paranoia, and logic has no effect on paranoia because whatever it is they fear will still be out to get them. In these debates it does not matter if you make a compelling fact based case that the Patriots will receive no sanctions because they did nothing wrong the response you will get every time is not that the Patriots will be sanctioned because the facts say they did something wrong the response you will get every time is that the Patriots did nothing wrong but will still be sanctioned because Goodell is out to get the Patriots, and no amount of facts or logic can ever change that.

Here is the deal for me, if the NFL comes out and fines the Patriots for deflategate then I will have to concede that the paranoia actually was well founded, the league is a joke and a sham, and I will seriously have to question whether or not following football is worth wasting any time or energy on it. I will issue a mea culpa and let all those I disagreed with on it know they were right and I was wrong.

On the other hand if the league finds no wrongdoing and issues no sanctions I wonder how many of those saying that they will be sanctioned no matter what will do the same?

 

[Ivan]

You are absolutely right that all that matters is Goodell. Some of us feel that his past history is a good indicator of future results while others feel that he will be persuaded by the facts or the influence of an influential owner to render a fair judgement. We will see which position turns out to be correct and I hope that the latter position is correct.

I didn't say that all that matters is Goodell, I said that is the response I get no matter what facts or logic are used, and there simply is no effective response to paranoia.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

Let's face it guys. Even if there are no fines or penalties (which I suspect is doubtful) and even if the Patriots are exonerated, I believe the report is going to highlight suspicions about concerning trends and patterns that go all the way back to 2006. I believe that's why Ted Wells is taking as long as he is. He is probably going at great length to explore all avenues to explain what led to a decline in fumbles. Even if he can't prove that the Patriots cheated, he can and probably will note some of these patterns, that may perhaps suggest some form of tampering with footballs, but which cannot be proven conclusively. Either way, the axe is going to fall on someone.

I love the Patriots. I love Bill. I idolize Brady. But we need to take these rumors more seriously and brace ourselves for what could be some stern consequences. At best, if there are no penalties, we can feel relieved and vindicated. But if it turns out that we will face stiff consequences, we should prepare ourselves mentally, and contemplate what actions we want to take on behalf of our beloved Pats.

In the worst case scenario, my advice to Kraft and Belichick would be to accept the fines (I don't think they will be as bad as Spygate) and use it as motivation to make another run for the Super Bowl. We all know how lethal Bill can be when he has an axe to grind. In the 2007-2008 season, he literally took out his anger on the NFL, by beating the living hell out of 17 other teams, just to make a point. He won't be immersed in off-field politics, because he knows that whenever your integrity is on the line, the best response to such allegations is pure and simple: win, and show the world that you can win like no one else can!

And let's not forget, Tom Brady is already the most competitive athlete alive. He's mentioned countless times how all those years of being benched, and the experience of being a sixth round draft made him feel as though he needed to out-do and outplay everyone else. He's shown us time and time again his boundless willpower and dedication to the game. There's no better example than this past season, when the future of his career was questioned like it's never been before.

Look what happened after his embarrassing loss to the Kansas City Chiefs. I have never seen a quarterback suffer so much humiliation after losing, and then summon so much courage and resolve a mere two weeks later, to make such a powerful statement, by winning in the way he and the Pats did. And while he'll never admit it, I believe that Brady was so hurt by having his integrity questioned during Deflategate, that in SB 49, he wanted to prove to his detractors that he could win and play at his best on level playing field, before the very eyes of the world!

If the last 13 years have shown us anything, is that you never want to underestimate Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. These guys play at their best when their integrity is on the line. Spygate and Deflategate only made them stronger, and if the NFL wants to be unjust and punish the Patriots, so be it.... I trust that Brady and Belichick will know what to do.

That said, vote for Super Bowl XLIX as the finest game ever played. All the Patriots haters are coming out in full force to take it out of the running. We need to support our team, now more than ever.

http://www.nfl.com/bracketology

 

[flasox27]

It's not pessimism, you can answer pessimism with facts, it may not cheer them up but they can at least register it. It's paranoia, and logic has no effect on paranoia because whatever it is they fear will still be out to get them. In these debates it does not matter if you make a compelling fact based case that the Patriots will receive no sanctions because they did nothing wrong the response you will get every time is not that the Patriots will be sanctioned because the facts day they did something wrong the response you will get every time is that the Patriots did nothing wrong but will still be sanctioned because Goodell is out to get the Patriots, and no amount of facts or logic can ever change that.

Here the deal for me, if the NFL comes out and fines the Patriots for deflategate then I will have to conceded that the paranoia actually was well founded, the league is a joke and a sham, and I will seriously have to question whether or not following football is worth wasting any time or energy on it. I will issue a mess culpa and let all those I disagreed with on it know they were right and I was wrong.

On the other hand if the league finds no wrongdoing and issues no sanctions I wonder how many of those saying that they will be sanctioned no matter what will do the same?

I have gone on record saying if I am wrong I will happily say my mea culpa. I don't believe any of us as Pats fans want the Pats to be punished but we have no faith in the POS running the NFL .

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

I have gone on record saying if I am wrong I will happily say my mea culpa. I don't believe any of us as Pats fans want the Pats to be punished but we have no faith in the POS running the NFL .

What do you think is the best response if it turns out we are punished?

 

[Ivan]

What i am referring to is the possibility that some posters raised that Goodell will ignore the scientific evidence and in their view bow to the clamour of the mob and punish the pats. The powers were not awarded in a vacuum, if he ignores the evidence and punishes the pats regardless yes IMO there is a basis for court action. He can not allow a violation of the Balls being manipulated on camera during the Vikings/Panthers game to go unpunished and then punish the pats where there is no evidence.


What do you mean damaged beyond repair, the just have to prove it was damaged and I am not talking about a suit to recover damages but to overturn a league punishment.

I think Robert Kraft was very clear at his press conference when he said "This is not how you treat an owner." I think he was making it clear to Goodell and the league office that they are employees and he and the other owners are the people who actually own the NFL and they work for them. Unlike many here I don't believe the Patriots will be sanctioned if the Wells Report finds no wrongdoing, and I think both Kraft and Goodell have a good idea what is on that report, which is why Kraft said they have no "smoking gun," and Goodell said they will wait to see if the findings show the league didn't act properly, and that he had no knowledge of the Colts complaint prior to the game, which imo was an indicator he was distancing himself from possible wrongdoing by those in his office.

I get the cynicism by many here regarding the league and media, it is well earned, what I don't get is the paranoia that regardless of the findings of the Wells Report that wrongdoing will be manufactured wholesale and that the Patriots will simply sit there and take it. As I have said several times, if that happens then I seriously have to question if football is worth following any more? Might as well make Vince MacMahon the commissioner of that's the case. And he may say it's too corrupt for him.

 

[Ivan]

What do you think is the best response if it turns out we are punished?

There's only two possible responses that matter, and the truth is the vast majority would be unwilling to do either. One is to stop buying any product the NFL makes money off of, which I have already done regardless of the outcome of this matter, no more hats, shirts etc... The second is to stop watching football altogether, which I get closer and closer to every year.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

I think Robert Kraft was very clear at his press conference when he said "This is not how you treat an owner." I think he was making it clear to Goodell and the league office that they are employees and he and the other owners are the people who actually own the NFL and they work for them. Unlike many here I don't believe the Patriots will be sanctioned if the Wells Report finds no wrongdoing, and I think both Kraft and Goodell have a good idea what is on that report, which is why Kraft said they have no "smoking gun," and Goodell said they will wait to see if the findings show the league didn't act properly, and that he had no knowledge of the Colts complaint prior to the game, which imo was an indicator he was distancing himself from possible wrongdoing by those in his office.

I get the cynicism by many here regarding the league and media, it is well earned, what I don't get is the paranoia that regardless of the findings of the Wells Report that wrongdoing will be manufactured wholesale and that the Patriots will simply sit there and take it. As I have said several times, if that happens then I seriously have to question if football is worth following any more? Might as well make Vince MacMahon the commissioner of that's the case. And he may say it's too corrupt for him.

I dunno. Your assuming that the investigation is going to be objective and fair. What makes you think this isn't just another witch hunt? What makes you think that when it comes to salvaging his reputation in the public, that he won't throw Kraft under the bus?

I can't know for certain whether the NFL will punish us. I hope they don't. And there's always hope that the Commissioner will do what's right and that Ted Wells will dismiss these allegations, rather than reinforce them. But I guarantee to you, if we do get screwed, NO ONE is going to come to the defense of the Patriots. We are hated by the rest of the country to the extreme, and every time we lose an important game or are accused of cheating, it gives haters delight. Trust me, if Goodell does something unfair towards the Patriots, it won't alienate the public. It will only make fans and the other NFL teams happy.

People may not like Goodell, but I feel they hate the Patriots even more.

 

[flasox27]

It's not pessimism, you can answer pessimism with facts, it may not cheer them up but they can at least register it. It's paranoia, and logic has no effect on paranoia because whatever it is they fear will still be out to get them. In these debates it does not matter if you make a compelling fact based case that the Patriots will receive no sanctions because they did nothing wrong the response you will get every time is not that the Patriots will be sanctioned because the facts say they did something wrong the response you will get every time is that the Patriots did nothing wrong but will still be sanctioned because Goodell is out to get the Patriots, and no amount of facts or logic can ever change that.

Here is the deal for me, if the NFL comes out and fines the Patriots for deflategate then I will have to concede that the paranoia actually was well founded, the league is a joke and a sham, and I will seriously have to question whether or not following football is worth wasting any time or energy on it. I will issue a mea culpa and let all those I disagreed with on it know they were right and I was wrong.

On the other hand if the league finds no wrongdoing and issues no sanctions I wonder how many of those saying that they will be sanctioned no matter what will do the same?

Let me address your statement that some of us are paranoid concerning the actions of Goodell. Since 2007, he has made rulings and punishments concerning the activities of the Pats and the Jets. In no circumstance has severity of his punishment been consistent with the facts or prior precedents.with the Pats being more severe and the Jets non existent. Even more striking has been the efforts of the commissioner and his henchmen to paint the Pats in the worst possible light by destroying exculpatory evidence and leaking continuously prejudicial information. I see no evidence that his prior actions would be changed in this case. That is realism not paranoia. Conversely for him to do the right thing and exonerate the Pats, runs contrary to his prior history and makes him and his office look foolish having wasted millions on a fishing expedition that comes up empty. Even if Kraft had his reputed influence and was willing to use it to try to influence Goodell, I don't believe it would have any effect in view of the animosity or jealousy most of the owners have towards the Pats.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

There's only two possible responses that matter, and the truth is the vast majority would be unwilling to do either. One is to stop buying any product the NFL makes money off of, which I have already done regardless of the outcome of this matter, no more hats, shirts etc... The second is to stop watching football altogether, which I get closer and closer to every year.

 

[Ivan]

Let me address your statement that some of us are paranoid concerning the actions of Goodell. Since 2007, He has made rulings and punishments concerning the activities of the Pats and the Jets. In no circumstance has severity of his punishment been consistent with the facts prior precedents.with the Pats being more severe and the Jets non existent. Even more striking has been the efforts of the commissioner and his henchmen to paint the Pats in the worst possible light by destroying exculpatory evidence and leaking continuously prejudicial information. I see no evidence that his prior actions would be changed in this case. That is realism not paranoia. Conversely for him to do the right thing and exonerate the Pats, runs contrary to his prior history and makes him and his office look foolish having wasted millions on a fishing expedition that comes up empty. Even if Kraft had his reputed influence and was willing to use it to try to influence Goodell, I don't believe it would have any effect in view of the animosity or jealousy most of the owners have towards the Pats.

Saying they are out to get you is paranoia, not realism. Do I think the Patriots have gotten a fair shake in the past? No, I don't, I think the Spygate sanctions were absurd but in that case they had factual evidence the Patriots has violated a rule and they used it to hammer them. That however is entirely different than saying they will flat out fabricate a reason to sanction the Patriots even if the actual evidence says otherwise, there is no history of them doing so and claiming they will is paranoia, not realism.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Some people here have been saying "well, Al Davis sued, so Kraft will be able to."

So I sent a tweet to McCann asking why Davis was able to sue, in light of his comments about NE not being able to sue.

He said: (1) the NFL has strengthened the waiver of rights agreements that teams have to sign, and (2) the Raiders lawsuits were anti-trust suits and anti-trust law makes it hard to contractually waive anti-trust claims.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

Saying they are out to get you is paranoia, not realism. Do I think the Patriots have gotten a fair shake in the past? No, I don't, I think the Spygate sanctions were absurd but in that case they had factual evidence the Patriots has violated a rule and they used it to hammer them. That however is entirely different than saying they will flat out fabricate a reason to sanction the Patriots even if the actual evidence says otherwise, there is no history of them doing so and claiming they will is paranoia, not realism.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between. I don't like conspiracy theories, and unlike others, I do not feel that Goodell personally despises the franchise. I feel other important NFL officials may resent us, but I don't think the NFL has an axe to grind with the Patriots. I believe we make the NFL better. I believe we help rake in $$$$ for the league. I think the League needs us more than they realize.

I do also believe that the the NFL has serious credibility issues, and I believe deflategate is being fueled by the public's perception of, and the generally dislike towards the Patriots. Rather than quell these suspicions, the NFL has only helped to reinforce them, by pouring millions of dollars into a sham of an investigation. This needed to be resolved BEFORE the Super Bowl, but instead, they've chosen to prolong it, with absolutely NO deadline whatsoever. Tell me Ivan, why is that the case?

LOL, I commend you by the way for taking such a principled stance. But in all seriousness, you would STOP WATCHING FOOTBALL??

[Skip Bayless Voice] Are you kidding me!!! [/Skip Bayless Voice]

Dude, we're just coming off from watching the best Super Bowl in recent memory - perhaps the best of all time. Tom Brady arguably delivered his finest performance yet, and promises to give us more. And Belichick is more eager than ever, to win a fifth Super Bowl. A FIFTH Super Bowl!!! Are you sure you'd be willing to give all that up?

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Yet you have no problem saying that Ted Wells report will be a lie.

I'm confident there will be virtually no lies in the Wells report at all. Any assertions of fact in the report are highly likely to be true.

That doesn't for a second mean that things which would show the NFL in a bad light won't be heavily minimized or even omitted.

Despite what Goodell claims, this is not an independent report. It's a report paid for by the NFL and being done by someone who has had plenty of business from the NFL. No lawyer is going to issue a report that buries his paying client. Both because it would be stupid and because it violates legal ethics about obligation to the client.

Anyhow, I said nothing about the report containing lies. I said I expect Goodell to fine NE for an equipment violation - that violation being that at least one ball was out of spec when measured during the game. And that he'll handwave around the weather and that none other than NE fans will care about the bogosity of that.

 

[VectorPrime]

Let's face it guys. Even if there are no fines or penalties (which I suspect is doubtful) and even if the Patriots are exonerated, I believe the report is going to highlight suspicions about concerning trends and patterns that go all the way back to 2006. I believe that's why Ted Wells is taking as long as he is. He is probably going at great length to explore all avenues to explain what led to a decline in fumbles. Even if he can't prove that the Patriots cheated, he can and probably will note some of these patterns, that may perhaps suggest some form of tampering with footballs, but which cannot be proven conclusively. Either way, the axe is going to fall on someone.

Back in January there were a bunch of examinations into the drop off in fumbles since 2007 and the "conspiracy theories" that the Patriots must have been screwing with the balls ever since then. They were all easily debunked. Anyone have some of the links to these?

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

I'm confident there will be virtually no lies in the Wells report at all. Any assertions of fact in the report are highly likely to be true.

That doesn't for a second mean that things which would show the NFL in a bad light won't be heavily minimized or even omitted.

Despite what Goodell claims, this is not an independent report. It's a report paid for by the NFL and being done by someone who has had plenty of business from the NFL. No lawyer is going to issue a report that buries his paying client. Both because it would be stupid and because it violates legal ethics about obligation to the client.

Anyhow, I said nothing about the report containing lies. I said I expect Goodell to fine NE for an equipment violation - that violation being that at least one ball was out of spec when measured during the game. And that he'll handwave around the weather and that none other than NE fans will care about the bogosity of that.

But if they're going to issue an equipment fine, shouldn't the NFL be held partly responsible for failing to enforce those specific regulation requirements. Truthfully, I think it's just as much as failure of enforcement and oversight as it is a (possible) outcome of negligence on the part of the Patriots (assuming that all teams have a responsibility to adhere to regulations and maintain league mandated PSI levels, regardless of outside factors like the weather and such).