Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark have "Butterfingers"

[Metaphors]

Second, besides Harrison and Wayne, who are our "HOF" receivers??

Wow. While it is a bit early to point Wayne to Canton, are you seriously asking us to find a THIRD elite receiver on your team? Seriously?

Point is, Clark isn't head and shoulders above any of these guys. He's on par, and we might not be comparing apples to apples with some of them, but there is a lot of talent at that position in the NFL, Clark could be replaced by any one of a number of these guys.

Clark is more of a slot receiver than a traditional TE. He may not be the best TE in the league, but he is uniquely suited to do what the Colts offense needs. Go ahead and plug in Alge Crumpler...and watch Manning get killed waiting for him to attack the deep middle.

Point?? Manning doesn't have any more than what a lot of other teams have out there in those skill positions.

Name one besides the Pats this year. Dallas and Cincy come the closest but that is it.

 

[coltsfan]

What have the receivers Brady played with done with there new teams? NOTHING , Brady made them what they where here.

Secondly if manning made his receivers why has he SUCKED this year when he does not have his full compliment. Manning receivers made him. Pretty clear by your own logic. He has a great d this year and he is average. Why?


You just owned yourself, hahah!

Actually, David Patten is a starting receiver for one of the better passing offenses in the league and has had a pretty doggone good year considering it's been near five years since he was a starter for the Pats. Deion Branch is the #1 receiver for another very good passing offense. And I wouldn't credit Brady for David Givens getting hurt. Givens going against corners the Colts had on him like Jason David or David Macklin was a mismatch. It wasn't Brady making him great.

Actually, look at what Manning has done when he had Anthony Gonzalez at receiver and it has been very good. We whooped the team that might have the best defense in the NFC (though I admit that's not saying a lot) in the Bucs without Marvin or Addai in there. We've won two other games without Harrison and with Gonzalez and played well on offense against Denver and Atlanta.

And please don't make it seem like playing with guys like Moorehead and Thorpe is the same as what Brady has had to play with. We're talking about guys that weren't drafted in this league, while you are talking about guys that were second round picks. And Moorehead wasn't even healthy when he was playing. We almost beat you guys while playing with these guys, and would have won had Gonzalez not dropped his TD while playing with a broken finger or Wayne dropped a perfectly placed deep ball. And we would have beaten San Diego had Moorehead not dropped another perfectly placed deep ball (not to mention Thorpe dropping a TD pass earlier in the game).

And if Addai and our offensive line are so great, then why is Belichick playing Rodney Harrison the whole game at linebacker against us even though we are out there with Moorehead and Ben Utecht? I would say that he means he still wasn't very concerned about our running game.

Look, you people have the right to think that Brady is better than Manning. But when you act like this year has somehow exposed Manning, or that Manning has been playing in a situation like Brady has in the past, that is just foolish.

 

[coltsfan]

Name one besides the Pats this year. Dallas and Cincy come the closest but that is it.

That's easy. St. Louis. I didn't even have to think about that one. What's their record again?

 

[workhorse]

I don't think we are talking about just having success. Lots of teams have success on offense. Manning and the Colts' offense has taken 2 leaps in their efficiency...2002 (Wayne's 2nd year) and 2004 (Clark's 2nd year and Stokely's healthy year). I don't think that is a coincidence.

Even though the Colts won it all last year, that was the 1st year of a natural downturn in efficiency. This year is a continuation of that. Doesn't mean the Colts stink, just that they can't simply keep the status quo indefinitely.

If Gonzalez can develop in his 2nd year, that will help...but I'm curious to see the direction of the Colts in the next couple of years. Harrison is breaking down and Wayne is creeping up on 30 (less than 2 yrs younger than Moss). When do you address their replacements? I'm not sure what I would do in that situation.

You are making my point. The more familiar a player is with the system, the better it works.

 

[coltsfan]

I don't know. Manning had success with the like of EG Green and Jerome Pathon as his receivers with Marvin.

Not to mention Terrance Wilkins, who started at WR in Manning's second year when we went 13-3. That's a 5'8" rookie free agent starting, who went on to do nothing when he left the Colts. Really, we have more right to "brag" about our guys who went on to do nothing after they left the Colts, then all these Pats' fans do. That Dominic Rhodes, "the Superbowl MVP" some said, has really made a difference for the Raiders, hasn't he?

As I said in an earlier post, Pats' fans can say that Brady is better than Manning. But some of this other stuff they are saying is just foolish.

 

[Deus Irae]

Look, you people have the right to think that Brady is better than Manning. But when you act like this year has somehow exposed Manning, or that Manning has been playing in a situation like Brady has in the past, that is just foolish.

Actually, you're half right. Manning's been playing in a situation that has been less stellar than his situation has been in the past, but it's still been a better situation than what Brady has had throughout his career prior to this season.

And that's exactly why Manning's been exposed for what he is: a great quarterback who doesn't deserve to be in the "Greatest of all time" discussions as if he's in the top 5 at the position. He's a top 10/top 15 all-time kind of guy, and there's no shame in that. However, he is what he is.

 

[coltsfan]

Actually, you're half right. Manning's been playing in a situation that has been less stellar than his situation has been in the past, but it's still been a better situation than what Brady has had throughout his career prior to this season.

And that's exactly why Manning's been exposed for what he is: a great quarterback who doesn't deserve to be in the "Greatest of all time" discussions as if he's in the top 5 at the position. He's a top 10/top 15 all-time kind of guy, and there's no shame in that. However, he is what he is.

You have a right to think what you say in the second paragraph, but you're still stretching it with your first point. Brady has never been out there relying on players like Moorehead, Thorpe, and Utecht. Nor has he had to rely on Charlie Johnson or Mike Toudouze protecting his blindside. The guys he's had like Branch, Givens, and Patten were all good to very good players. Troy Brown is one of the best slot receivers of his era. Gaffney and Caldwell were good enough to be second round picks, and were better than the guys covering them on the Jets and Colts in the playoffs last season.

 

[bradmahn]

Actually, David Patten is a starting receiver for one of the better passing offenses in the league and has had a pretty doggone good year considering it's been near five years since he was a starter for the Pats. Deion Branch is the #1 receiver for another very good passing offense. And I wouldn't credit Brady for David Givens getting hurt. Givens going against corners the Colts had on him like Jason David or David Macklin was a mismatch. It wasn't Brady making him great.

Actually, look at what Manning has done when he had Anthony Gonzalez at receiver and it has been very good. We whooped the team that might have the best defense in the NFC (though I admit that's not saying a lot) in the Bucs without Marvin or Addai in there. We've won two other games without Harrison and with Gonzalez and played well on offense against Denver and Atlanta.

And please don't make it seem like playing with guys like Moorehead and Thorpe is the same as what Brady has had to play with. We're talking about guys that weren't drafted in this league, while you are talking about guys that were second round picks. And Moorehead wasn't even healthy when he was playing. We almost beat you guys while playing with these guys, and would have won had Gonzalez not dropped his TD while playing with a broken finger or Wayne dropped a perfectly placed deep ball. And we would have beaten San Diego had Moorehead not dropped another perfectly placed deep ball (not to mention Thorpe dropping a TD pass earlier in the game).

And if Addai and our offensive line are so great, then why is Belichick playing Rodney Harrison the whole game at linebacker against us even though we are out there with Moorehead and Ben Utecht? I would say that he means he still wasn't very concerned about our running game.

Look, you people have the right to think that Brady is better than Manning. But when you act like this year has somehow exposed Manning, or that Manning has been playing in a situation like Brady has in the past, that is just foolish.

David Patten? The 5'10" undrafted free agent Dave Patten? Besides two good games this year, he hasn't done anything since leaving the Patriots. Deion Branch is a good receiver, which no one will contend, but he is a number two receiver. David Givens was a seventh round pick who played above himself, and yes, you can't rightly criticize him yet because he hasn't been on the field, but he was nothing great while here. Strong guy, bigger target, but nothing special.

How can we even be having this argument?

Even without Marvin Harrison, Manning has still had Reggie Wayne every game and Dallas Clark and Addai for every game except for one apiece (at different times, mind you).

 

[cstjohn17]

Clark has a history of drops, call it foot steps or a lack of concentration but he can generally be relied upon to drop at least one 3rd down reception per game. Wayne has been more steady in the past but has some awful drops this year, he dropped a killer against the Patriots. It may have sealed the game and it went right through his hands. Myabe he is not used to being the number 1 target.

In the end Hobbs has to cover him better, letting the guy get 3 steps on you and then hoping the other WR drops the ball it not a good way to play defense.

 

[coltsfan]

David Patten? The 5'10" undrafted free agent Dave Patten? Besides two good games this year, he hasn't done anything since leaving the Patriots. Deion Branch is a good receiver, which no one will contend, but he is a number two receiver. David Givens was a seventh round pick who played above himself, and yes, you can't rightly criticize him yet because he hasn't been on the field, but he was nothing great while here. Strong guy, bigger target, but nothing special.

How can we even be having this argument?

Even without Marvin Harrison, Manning has still had Reggie Wayne every game and Dallas Clark and Addai for every game except for one apiece (at different times, mind you).

I live in New Orleans. Patten replacing butterfingers Devery Henderson was one of the reasons the Saints got out of their 0-4 hole. He is probably their most consistent receiver at getting separation, even at his age. He still is a good player, just as he was for the Pats five years ago. Don't get caught up in who has the name, instead watch them on the field. Favre was supposedly making chicken salad out of chicken ****, but I hope people realize now that Greg Jennings and the rest of those guys make up one of the best WR cores in the NFL. It's not the name, it's the game. Patten was much better than the guys the Colts had covering him, just as Branch and Givens were.

I never said Givens was great, but he was good. He wasn't a deep threat, but ran good routes. He was good enough to be paid $5M a year by a pretty good organization.

I say how can we be having this argument when I'm being told Manning has been exposed playing in two games with Moorehead and Thorpe and two backup offensive tackles going against Merriman, Shawne Phillips, Jared Allen, and Tamba Hali? Instead look at what he's done over his career when he's at least had guys who were competent outside like Gonzalez, Terrence Wilkins, EG Green, and Jerome Pathon.

 

[Deus Irae]

You have a right to think what you say in the second paragraph, but you're still stretching it with your first point. Brady has never been out there relying on players like Moorehead, Thorpe, and Utecht. Nor has he had to rely on Charlie Johnson or Mike Toudouze protecting his blindside. The guys he's had like Branch, Givens, and Patten were all good to very good players. Troy Brown is one of the best slot receivers of his era. Gaffney and Caldwell were good enough to be second round picks, and were better than the guys covering them on the Jets and Colts in the playoffs last season.

You really should learn about the past Patriots rosters:

2001
Troy Brown
Fred Coleman
Bert Emanuel (2 games)
Terry Glenn (4 games)
Charles Johnson
David Patten
Torrance Small (2 games)

So, have you seen the HOF numbers of Fred Coleman and Charles Johnson lately? The tight ends combined for 19 catches as well. Long live Rod Rutledge! So, Troy Brown, Fred Coleman, Charles Johnson, David Patten and Rod Rutledge won the Super Bowl for the 2001 Patriots. The Patriots had only 2 non running backs with more than 14 catches that season.

Are you really going to claim that the Colts have had worse groups than that with a straight face, particularly when you factor in the Faulk/James/Addai RB catching the ball out of the backfield over an Antoine Smith?

 

[coltsfan]

You really should learn about the past Patriots rosters:

2001
Troy Brown
Fred Coleman
Bert Emanuel (2 games)
Terry Glenn (4 games)
Charles Johnson
David Patten
Torrance Small (2 games)

So, have you seen the HOF numbers of Fred Coleman and Charles Johnson lately? The tight ends combined for 19 catches as well. Long live Rod Rutledge! So, Troy Brown, Fred Coleman, Charles Johnson, David Patten and Rod Rutledge won the Super Bowl for the 2001 Patriots. The Patriots had only 2 non running backs with more than 14 catches that season.

Are you really going to claim that the Colts have had worse groups than that with a straight face, particularly when you factor in the Faulk/James/Addai RB catching the ball out of the backfield over an Antoine Smith?

And how much did Brady do in that Superbowl (and the rest of the postseason)? Against a defense with Todd Lyght and Dexter McCleon at cornerback. I would doubt that corner duo was out there dominating Brown and Patten. And I do remember Smith having close to 100 yards against a mediocre run defense and controlling the pace of that game. As Chris Berman would say, I was there, I would know.

And no, you do have a decent point, but I think the situations are pretty equal. Moorehead playing with a bad back required no attention and was no threat, if you watched those games. So it was basically 10 on 10.

Look, I've always thought Brady was great. But you guys are still exaggerating here. Manning only had two games out there with those bums, and thank god Gonzo is back!

 

[Metaphors]

That's easy. St. Louis. I didn't even have to think about that one. What's their record again?

I was talking about this year. I'm assuming you are talking about the Rams in 1999 because if you think the 2007 Rams have comparable offensive talent to the 2007 Colts, you are just being silly...and yes, I have no doubt you didn't have to think about your post.

 

[coltsfan]

I was talking about this year. I'm assuming you are talking about the Rams in 1999 because if you think the 2007 Rams have comparable offensive talent to the 2007 Colts, you are just being silly...and yes, I have no doubt you didn't have to think about your post.

They still have Holt, Bruce, Jackson, McMichael, and Bennett. You were saying?

(Not to mention Dane Looker, Joe Klopfenstein, and Brian Leonard; so they have much more versitility rather than the same offensive set the Colts have had to run over and over.)

 

[Metaphors]

You are making my point. The more familiar a player is with the system, the better it works.

I wasn't trying to make your point, but glad I could help. Obviously "talent + experience > talent + inexperience", but the Colts ask a lot out of their receivers. Moorehead has been in the system for a while and the offense seems to lose quite a bit when he is in the game over Harrison.

It is surprising that the Colts would only have 3 WR (including Moorehead) that had caught an NFL pass coming into this season. Especially with Marvin being 35 yo. Adequate, experienced WR are a dime a dozen and yet the Colts don't seem to want to bring any in. Is there some kind of team/FO dynamic behind this?

 

[Metaphors]

They still have Holt, Bruce, Jackson, McMichael, and Bennett. You were saying?

(Not to mention Dane Looker, Joe Klopfenstein, and Brian Leonard; so they have much more versitility rather than the same offensive set the Colts have had to run over and over.)

Holt compares to Harrison or Wayne
Jackson compares to Addai

Bruce is ancient (he played for the LA Rams), gets dinged constantly and hasn't been a factor since 2004.
Bennett has had one good year (2004).
McMichael was released by the DOLPHINS for crying out loud!
Dane Looker's stats are good (87/941/3)...oh wait, those are the stats for his 7 year career.
Klopfenstein has as many catches this year as you do.
Leonard and his 230 lbs. and 3.6 ypc has as many TDs this year as you do.

If that is comparable to the Colts talent this year, then the Colts must really suck.

 

[coltsfan]

Holt compares to Harrison or Wayne
Jackson compares to Addai

Bruce is ancient (he played for the LA Rams), gets dinged constantly and hasn't been a factor since 2004.
Bennett has had one good year (2004).
McMichael was released by the DOLPHINS for crying out loud!
Dane Looker's stats are good (87/941/3)...oh wait, those are the stats for his 7 year career.
Klopfenstein has as many catches this year as you do.
Leonard and his 230 lbs. and 3.6 ypc has as many TDs this year as you do.

If that is comparable to the Colts talent this year, then the Colts must really suck.

No offense, but if you think Bruce can't play anymore then you haven't watched him when he's been out there this year. He is still one of the best route runners in football.

The other guys have either proven themselves to be solid players in this league, or are recent high draft picks.

 

[He Ban Me]

That has to be the most horrific excuse making I have ever seen. How many teams have two number one receivers (and a first round draft pick rookie), one of the best TEs in the league (top 8, at least), and one of the best running backs in the league? Along with a really good offensive line. Don't try to make it out like Manning has to deal with the same offensive talent around him as others, when the goal of that organization has been to surround him with top level talent for the last six years.

No, my point is that many here truely believe that Manning is nothing without his "All Star cast" of receivers. I say it ain't so. First, before Wayne arrived, it was Marvin and..... and who, without looking, can YOU name them?? And when reggie arrived, he really wasn't a "number 2" until his third year. He is having his best year currently, but there is no Marvin there as an "excuse" as to why he is having his best year. Can't "discount" Reggie's accomplishment by saying he does it because Marvin is on the other side. Further, I am alos saying that SAVE for a FEW teams, Manning could survive AND PROSPER with MANY DUOS currently out there, or recently available.

Jets-Coles and Cotch (along with that decent TE of a year or tow ago) CHECK
Fins-Chambers, Booker, (Miami's nice TE-forget his name too) CHECK
Steelers-Ward, Holmes, Miller, Parker CHECK
Browns-Edwards, Winslow, Lewis CHECK
CINCY CHECK
Donks-Jevon Walker Brandon Marshall, Stokely, and their TE CHECK
SDGates, LT, and at least ONE of their current(or recent) WR's CHECK
Boys CHECK
Philly-Westbrook, Stallworth(or Curtis now), Brown, LJ CHECK
Skins-Santana Moss, Randle El, Portis, Cooley CHECK
NYG-Plax, Toomer, Shockey, Tiki CHECK
GB-Driver, and their corp, mix in Bubba CHECK
Chicago-Berrien, Mushin, and their TE (Desmond Clark?)
N.O. Colston, Bush, Henderson, and the Duece CHECK
St. Louis Holt, Bruce, Jackson CHECK
Seattle-Ingram, Branch, Penn State dude (no longer there), Alexander CHECK
Zona-Fitzgerald, Boldin, James CHECK


I did not look up all 31 rosters to see who is current, but these guys were all together currently or recent past. I am sure that if I looked up the teams NOT represented, I might pluck a few more out. And of those I have mentioned, I could probably add some depth to those if I reviewed their rosters as well. You all make it sound like PM has an entire squad that is light years ahead of everyone else. Sure, they are very good, but these other teams have PLENTY of talent to be successful with. No Qb will do well without an decent O-line, but save for Glenn, the Colts O-line are not household names. Saturday made the ProBowl, just recently starting to get some pub, but as many are quick to point out, we are "undersized" at almost every position. Sure, the Colts have surrounded PM with talent, but MANY other teams have enough talent to be successful, and if Manning had guys like those mentioned above, I don't think his numbers or his wins suffer in the least. Either they would have attained a level close to our guys, or they don't get paid as much, which frees up cash to spend on the Defense, either way, he doesn't lose many (if any) wins.

 

[Joker]

Bitter?
The Patriots are not the team whose GENERAL MANAGER co-opted the rules committee as chairman and CHANGED THE OFFENSIVE RULES 4 straight years in a row to STRICTLY benefit HIS TEAM,HIS OFFENSE and HIS QUARTERBACK.

That dog don't hunt,Colt fan.

 

[Metaphors]

Jets-Coles and Cotch (along with that decent TE of a year or tow ago) CHECK
Fins-Chambers, Booker, (Miami's nice TE-forget his name too) CHECK
Skins-Santana Moss, Randle El, Portis, Cooley CHECK
NYG-Plax, Toomer, Shockey, Tiki CHECK
Chicago-Berrien, Mushin, and their TE (Desmond Clark?)

I'm sorry. I didn't realize you and coltsfan were being funny. You guys had me until you said that you could put Manning on the Fins or Jets and he would be just as successful. That is a riot!

You should have included the 49ers and Panthers too. Way too funny.

Let me try it with Bob Sanders now...

"You could put Sanders on the Raiders or the Broncos and they would be amazing at stopping the run."

I like this game.