Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark have "Butterfingers"

[danny88]

Why has he "sucked" this year without his full complement. Hmmmm... why could that be? It's not like it takes time to develop timing and rapport with receivers. I dunno, you stumped me.

And Brady didn't have better numbers. Stop making things up please.

Are you kidding. You just said Manning made his recievers. Then why does only the loss of Marvin Harrison have a drastic effect on his performance. Hell he has been working with Wayne and Clark for long enough, no?

Brady had no time to develope rapport with Caldwell and Gaffney. By years end they where putting up better numbers then Harrison and Wayne in the playoffs. Now Caldwell cant crack the lineup on the redskins. How about Branch? What has he done? What has anyone done since they stopped catching ball's from Brady? Any of them make a pro bowl? Lead the leauge for anything?

Brady has only been playing with Welker Stallworth and Moss for 12 games. He is putting up numbers never seen before. No "rapport with those guys before the season started" He is better, deal with it.

 

[Arrrr]

Are you kidding. You just said Manning made his recievers. Then why does only the loss of Marvin Harrison have a drastic effect on his performance. Hell he has been working with Wayne and Clark for long enough, no?

Brady had no time to develope rapport with Caldwell and Gaffney. By years end they where putting up better numbers then Harrison and Wayne in the playoffs. Now Caldwell cant crack the lineup on the redskins. How about Brnach? What has he done. What has anyone done since they stopped catching ball from Brady?

Brady has only been playing with Welker Stallworth and Moss for 12 games. He is putting up numbers never seen before. No "rapport with those guys before the season started" He is better, deal with it.

you missed a post!

 

[danny88]

you missed a post!

How can Brady set all time records with no "rapport" developed with his recievers, yet Manning cannot weather the lose of just ONE of his pro bowl weapons without stinking up the joint. Guys he has been playing with for years. In a dome.

Addai Clark and Wayne are pro bowl players. The excuses are endless for overrated the clown manning.

 

[Arrrr]

How can brady all time records with no "rapport" developed with his recievers, yet Manning cannot weather the lose of just ONE of his pro bowl weapons without stinking up the joint.

Addai Clark and Wayne are pro bowl players. The excuses are endless for overrated the clown manning.

He didn't have Clark in the San Diego game, and Anthony Gonzales was out too. I dunno what the last sentence was supposed to be, but I don't think it's any intelligible English I've ever heard.

 

[danny88]

He didn't have Clark in the San Diego game, and Anthony Gonzales was out too. I dunno what the last sentence was supposed to be, but I don't think it's any intelligible English I've ever heard.

So what? Brady never had anyone to start with. Manning still had Addai and Wayne. Oh boo hoooo.

Answer the question. How can Tom Brady set all time records with no "rapport". Numbers never seen before. Brady has only been playing with Welker, Stallworth and Moss for TWELVE GAMES. He is that good, thats how. Brady does not even play in a dome either like Manning. Perfect passing conditions.

Yet Manning cannot weather the storm of the loss of ONE of his pro bowlers. Since Marvin went down Manning has been lackluster.

Why?

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

And Brady didn't have better numbers. Stop making things up please.

facts..maybe you've heard of them...

In the first 3 games of the playoffs (pats played 3, Colts 4)
name catches yds tds
Harrison 10 134 0
Wayne 15 155 1
Caldwell 16 176 1
Gaffney 21 244 2

Even if you add in the Super Bowl Harrison 15/192 and Wayne 17/216, they had 32 catches or 5 less than Gaffney/Caldwell despite playing one more game and they still had 12 less yards and one less TD...........

Oh and Brady's playoff numbers 70/119 724 yds 5 td, 4 int 76.45 rating
Manning (first 3 games) 72/115 787 2/6 rating 66.82
MAnning (all4 games) 97/143 1034 3 tds 7 int 75.34 rating...

 

[WhiZa]

Looks like Wayne was trying to hold Wilson and draw a PI call
(deja vu), but Wilson decided to punch him in the face instead.

 

[danny88]

Looks like Wayne was trying to hold Wilson and draw a PI call
(deja vu), but Wilson decided to punch him in the face instead.

Typical colts reciever. Throw it up and try to get a bogus pi call. Wimps.

Love seeing how Wilson punched that wuss in the facemask there.

 

[Metaphors]

Yet Manning cannot weather the storm of the loss of ONE of his pro bowlers. Since Marvin went down Manning has been lackluster.

Why?

Really not much of a mystery. Except for dumpoffs and screens, Manning is almost exclusively throwing timing routes. He doesn't throw to receivers, he throws to spots. BTW, this is not a criticism since hitting those patterns is really hard to do.

For Manning to be successful at this, he needs 3 things:

1) Great protection. He needs to identify the open areas before throwing the ball. Hard to determine that pre-snap. His "happy feet" dance tells you he is going through his downfield reads. With protection issues, the ball comes out too early and the timing is thrown off.

2) Open spaces. Can't throw to a spot if a defender is standing there. That is why Manning seems to struggle when a defense shows man initially but drops into zone. Also why blitzing Manning doesn't work since it leaves too many open areas to defend with 5 or 6 players.

3) Multiple great receivers. They don't just have to catch the ball...they have to go get the ball. They have to read/react to the same holes that Manning is throwing to, and accelerate to where the ball is thrown. Again, not an easy thing to do. Even losing one of those receivers throws off the dynamics (more defenders roll to other areas of the field).

Manning has always led a high-maintenance offense. It is susceptible to breakdowns in non-ideal conditions (injuries, weather, unique defensive gameplans, etc). It is actually amazing that they have been consistently successful living on the edge like that, but it isn't a mystery why injuries are so problematic for them. Also not a mystery why Wayne and Harrison have always hit the turf or run out of bounds before taking a hit.

 

[danny88]

Really not much of a mystery. Except for dumpoffs and screens, Manning is almost exclusively throwing timing routes. He doesn't throw to receivers, he throws to spots. BTW, this is not a criticism since hitting those patterns is really hard to do.

For Manning to be successful at this, he needs 3 things:

1) Great protection. He needs to identify the open areas before throwing the ball. Hard to determine that pre-snap. His "happy feet" dance tells you he is going through his downfield reads. With protection issues, the ball comes out too early and the timing is thrown off.

2) Open spaces. Can't throw to a spot if a defender is standing there. That is why Manning seems to struggle when a defense shows man initially but drops into zone. Also why blitzing Manning doesn't work since it leaves too many open areas to defend with 5 or 6 players.

3) Multiple great receivers. They don't just have to catch the ball...they have to go get the ball. They have to read/react to the same holes that Manning is throwing to, and accelerate to where the ball is thrown. Again, not an easy thing to do. Even losing one of those receivers throws off the dynamics (more defenders roll to other areas of the field).

Manning has always led a high-maintenance offense. It is susceptible to breakdowns in non-ideal conditions (injuries, weather, unique defensive gameplans, etc). It is actually amazing that they have been consistently successful living on the edge like that, but it isn't a mystery why injuries are so problematic for them. Also not a mystery why Wayne and Harrison have always hit the turf or run out of bounds before taking a hit.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[workhorse]

Really not much of a mystery. Except for dumpoffs and screens, Manning is almost exclusively throwing timing routes. He doesn't throw to receivers, he throws to spots. BTW, this is not a criticism since hitting those patterns is really hard to do.

For Manning to be successful at this, he needs 3 things:

1) Great protection. He needs to identify the open areas before throwing the ball. Hard to determine that pre-snap. His "happy feet" dance tells you he is going through his downfield reads. With protection issues, the ball comes out too early and the timing is thrown off.

2) Open spaces. Can't throw to a spot if a defender is standing there. That is why Manning seems to struggle when a defense shows man initially but drops into zone. Also why blitzing Manning doesn't work since it leaves too many open areas to defend with 5 or 6 players.

3) Multiple great receivers. They don't just have to catch the ball...they have to go get the ball. They have to read/react to the same holes that Manning is throwing to, and accelerate to where the ball is thrown. Again, not an easy thing to do. Even losing one of those receivers throws off the dynamics (more defenders roll to other areas of the field).

Manning has always led a high-maintenance offense. It is susceptible to breakdowns in non-ideal conditions (injuries, weather, unique defensive gameplans, etc). It is actually amazing that they have been consistently successful living on the edge like that, but it isn't a mystery why injuries are so problematic for them. Also not a mystery why Wayne and Harrison have always hit the turf or run out of bounds before taking a hit.

Wow, you saved me the time of having to type this out. I think number 3 is the big reason for this season's numbers. When you have rookies and practice squad receivers on the field the timing is just not there. Manning any his receiver have to make the same reads and have their timing in sync. The receiver has to hit the spot at the right time because Manning frequently throws to a spot before the receiver has made his break or before he is even open. Manning doesn't need Pro Bowlers to make this system work, but he does need time with the guys in the system

 

[Metaphors]

Wow, you saved me the time of having to type this out. I think number 3 is the big reason for this season's numbers. When you have rookies and practice squad receivers on the field the timing is just not there. Manning any his receiver have to make the same reads and have their timing in sync. The receiver has to hit the spot at the right time because Manning frequently throws to a spot before the receiver has made his break or before he is even open. Manning doesn't need Pro Bowlers to make this system work, but he does need time with the guys in the system

Not exactly where I was going with point #3. Manning needs more than just experience with his receivers (Moorehead has been around a while). He needs excellent receivers with a pretty impressive skill set. Don't have to be Pro Bowl caliber (a healthy Stokely was perfect for Manning), but I don't think you can give Manning an average receiver and expect much...even if they work together for a while.

 

[workhorse]

Not exactly where I was going with point #3. Manning needs more than just experience with his receivers (Moorehead has been around a while). He needs excellent receivers with a pretty impressive skill set. Don't have to be Pro Bowl caliber (a healthy Stokely was perfect for Manning), but I don't think you can give Manning an average receiver and expect much...even if they work together for a while.

I don't know. Manning had success with the like of EG Green and Jerome Pathon as his receivers with Marvin.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't know. Manning had success with the like of EG Green and Jerome Pathon as his receivers with Marvin.

Not when it came time to show up big (playoffs).

 

[Bostonian1962]

Isn't that what Polian said to the competition committee after the '04 season?

Indeed! And, many times since then.

 

[He Ban Me]

I don't know. Manning had success with the like of EG Green and Jerome Pathon as his receivers with Marvin.

Have to agree here.

First off, we are among the worst in drops this season, and it;s drops by guys like Wayne, Clark, and Moorehead (all Vets of the system), yet somehow this translates into PM's problem??

Second, besides Harrison and Wayne, who are our "HOF" receivers??

Wayne came along in '01, but his "break out" year didn't happen until '03. He's on pace to have his best year ever, but some of that must be in part due to Marvin's absence. We can at minimum, safely say that RW is not benefitting from the presence of Marvin, cause Marvin ain't there.

I really love Clark, but take a look at all the talented TE's in the league right now.

-Witten
-Cooley
-Miller
-Watson
-Winslow
-Crumpler (needs Vick perhaps)
-Gates
-Gonzalez
-Denver TE
-Franks (on his way out, but pretty damn good for many years)

Point is, Clark isn't head and shoulders above any of these guys. He's on par, and we might not be comparing apples to apples with some of them, but there is a lot of talent at that position in the NFL, Clark could be replaced by any one of a number of these guys.

Maybe not quite the same at the WR spot, but there are still plenty of quality receivers out there.

Point?? Manning doesn't have any more than what a lot of other teams have out there in those skill positions.

Name a number one from ANY of the other 31 teams that Manning couldn't be successful with (IOW, who has the worst number 1?? and how bad are they??) Again, the point is, MANY teams have a legit number 1, or a number 1that could flourish with Manning. If they DON'T have a number 1, it's by choice or scheme or stupidity (you decide which fits best for the Ravens, and maybe Vikes, Jax, and Titans).

In the end, BY DEFAULT, there are plenty of good TE's/WR's in the league that EACH team should have at LEAST 2 guys they can go to, Manning isn't any more blessed than most of the other teams out there.

 

[Bostonian1962]

facts..maybe you've heard of them...

In the first 3 games of the playoffs (pats played 3, Colts 4)
name catches yds tds
Harrison 10 134 0
Wayne 15 155 1
Caldwell 16 176 1
Gaffney 21 244 2

Even if you add in the Super Bowl Harrison 15/192 and Wayne 17/216, they had 32 catches or 5 less than Gaffney/Caldwell despite playing one more game and they still had 12 less yards and one less TD...........

Oh and Brady's playoff numbers 70/119 724 yds 5 td, 4 int 76.45 rating
Manning (first 3 games) 72/115 787 2/6 rating 66.82
MAnning (all4 games) 97/143 1034 3 tds 7 int 75.34 rating...

I don't mean to pick sides, but I have to say, what you just did is called a SLAM. It's safe to say, you have won this argument, even before posting the numbers. P.S. - When somebody has a comeback, and it's related to your sentence structure, you're in pretty good shape.

 

[Metaphors]

I don't know. Manning had success with the like of EG Green and Jerome Pathon as his receivers with Marvin.

I don't think we are talking about just having success. Lots of teams have success on offense. Manning and the Colts' offense has taken 2 leaps in their efficiency...2002 (Wayne's 2nd year) and 2004 (Clark's 2nd year and Stokely's healthy year). I don't think that is a coincidence.

Even though the Colts won it all last year, that was the 1st year of a natural downturn in efficiency. This year is a continuation of that. Doesn't mean the Colts stink, just that they can't simply keep the status quo indefinitely.

If Gonzalez can develop in his 2nd year, that will help...but I'm curious to see the direction of the Colts in the next couple of years. Harrison is breaking down and Wayne is creeping up on 30 (less than 2 yrs younger than Moss). When do you address their replacements? I'm not sure what I would do in that situation.

 

[bradmahn]

Have to agree here.

First off, we are among the worst in drops this season, and it;s drops by guys like Wayne, Clark, and Moorehead (all Vets of the system), yet somehow this translates into PM's problem??

Second, besides Harrison and Wayne, who are our "HOF" receivers??

Wayne came along in '01, but his "break out" year didn't happen until '03. He's on pace to have his best year ever, but some of that must be in part due to Marvin's absence. We can at minimum, safely say that RW is not benefitting from the presence of Marvin, cause Marvin ain't there.

I really love Clark, but take a look at all the talented TE's in the league right now.

-Witten
-Cooley
-Miller
-Watson
-Winslow
-Crumpler (needs Vick perhaps)
-Gates
-Gonzalez
-Denver TE
-Franks (on his way out, but pretty damn good for many years)

Point is, Clark isn't head and shoulders above any of these guys. He's on par, and we might not be comparing apples to apples with some of them, but there is a lot of talent at that position in the NFL, Clark could be replaced by any one of a number of these guys.

Maybe not quite the same at the WR spot, but there are still plenty of quality receivers out there.

Point?? Manning doesn't have any more than what a lot of other teams have out there in those skill positions.

Name a number one from ANY of the other 31 teams that Manning couldn't be successful with (IOW, who has the worst number 1?? and how bad are they??) Again, the point is, MANY teams have a legit number 1, or a number 1that could flourish with Manning. If they DON'T have a number 1, it's by choice or scheme or stupidity (you decide which fits best for the Ravens, and maybe Vikes, Jax, and Titans).

In the end, BY DEFAULT, there are plenty of good TE's/WR's in the league that EACH team should have at LEAST 2 guys they can go to, Manning isn't any more blessed than most of the other teams out there.

That has to be the most horrific excuse making I have ever seen. How many teams have two number one receivers (and a first round draft pick rookie), one of the best TEs in the league (top 8, at least), and one of the best running backs in the league? Along with a really good offensive line. Don't try to make it out like Manning has to deal with the same offensive talent around him as others, when the goal of that organization has been to surround him with top level talent for the last six years.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

I don't mean to pick sides, but I have to say, what you just did is called a SLAM. It's safe to say, you have won this argument, even before posting the numbers. P.S. - When somebody has a comeback, and it's related to your sentence structure, you're in pretty good shape.

Sometimes it takes the "shotgun to kill a fly" mentality to get thru to certain individuals........But thanks for the kudos...