Pats, Pack, and Jags interested in Moss

[Rob0729]

I don't think the "type" of offense or receiver that the Pats utilize is what will be the problem. If BB has the personnel to do something different he isn't going to sit there trying to jam a square peg into a circle hole. Maroney is a perfect example of this. They knew the talent is there, they know he's the best bet at running back, and they are changing their running scheme to compliment his style of play.

Moss would be the best thing at receiver and they would utilize his skills in a manner that would help the team win ball games.

Now, as for his ability/willingness to block in the running game... therein lies another problem, but I don't think they wouldn't go for him because he is different than all the other receivers they have utilized in the past.

I think the type of offense is everything. Why do players, especially linebackers, get discarded as potential targets for the Pats because they don't fit into a 3-4, two gap defense; a a WR doesn't get discarded because they don't fit into the offense we run?

The Pats ask their WRs to run quick, short routes. They are required to run precise routes and rely on timing. These are not Moss' skill sets. He is a guy who basically outruns and outjumps defenders. He is not a good route runner and just relies on pure talent.

As for Maroney, that is not a good example. I think one of the biggest problems with Maroney was they tried to run him like Dillon. He is more of a guy who is more effective running off tackle and outside, but they ran him up the gut like they would Dillon a lot.

Personally, I would rather have a lesser guy like Kevin Curtis who is built for our system than take an expensive risk on a guy like Moss who doesn't really fit what we like to run.

 

[salty]

If Randy Moss were still the receiver he used to be, he would really bring a lot to the Patriots offense. What we really need is a deep threat at wide receiver and/or a guy that can make people miss in space. Basically, a big play threat. Randy Moss can (or used to be able to) do both of those things, so he would really open up our offense because opposing teams could no longer just sit on the line of scrimmage and virtually ignore the rest of the field.

However, I have some serious doubts whether Moss is still that guy. He clearly quite on the Raiders, and their offense was so bad that anybody would have trouble excelling there, but he's also 30 years old and hasn't played at a high level for three years now.

Then there are the character issues. There is no question Randy can be a bad seed and a disruptive force if he lets himself be. Perhaps coming to a different environment and a winning organization (with a QB that an actually get him the ball) will change that, but its risky.

So all in all I think the Pats should pass. If they were to trade for him I'd be pretty upset if it was for anything more than a mid-round pick, and Moss would definitely have to restructure his contract big-time.

 

[ironwasp]

I suspect we could use the guy; it's possible (although unlikely) he'd also put his head down and work it for us and subsume the attitude to the possibility of getting a ring.

But for all this, if he's worth a third rounder or better, are we really going to commit the $20m this guy's due to earn in the next couple of years? I just can't see it.

 

[salty]

But for all this, if he's worth a third rounder or better, are we really going to commit the $20m this guy's due to earn in the next couple of years? I just can't see it.

I don't see the Pats trading for him, period. But if they did, there is no question he would have to do agree to a pretty significant re-structuring of his contract, and said re-structured contract would be very heavy on the incentives.

 

[JoePats]

I think the Pats offense is short-passed based not by design but rather because they have nobody who can get down the field consistently. They wouldn't bring Moss in and ask him to run 7 yard crossing routes, and if they did bring Moss in, there would be a lot more shots down the field, so I don't buy system as a reason not to bring him in. The sulking and general jackass attitude are valid reasons but for a 3rd or 4th round pick, depending on the finances, I think he's worth a shot.

 

[mgcolby]

IMO Theres no way a proud franchise like the Packers will let a guy on their team which at one point in a game against the Vikings Randy faked like he was pulling his pants down and mooning the end zone crowd after a touchdown and the fans there literally hit the roof with those actions.....No way he goes to cheeseland,the fans would go bonkers,they HATE Moss and won't change if he became a packer which wont happen anyway.

This is not like T.O. and Dallas like when he stomped on their star as an eagle and is now a cowboy,Its a different situation and more degrading.

Take GB out of the Moss sweepstakes,I say he gets traded to a team who in return can send a QB or top OL to Oakland as some of the trade compensation.

Well GB's GM said they would be willing to discuss a deal with Oakland if Randy was willing to restructure his contract.

 

[bradmahn]

I think the type of offense is everything. Why do players, especially linebackers, get discarded as potential targets for the Pats because they don't fit into a 3-4, two gap defense; a a WR doesn't get discarded because they don't fit into the offense we run?

The Pats ask their WRs to run quick, short routes. They are required to run precise routes and rely on timing. These are not Moss' skill sets. He is a guy who basically outruns and outjumps defenders. He is not a good route runner and just relies on pure talent.

As for Maroney, that is not a good example. I think one of the biggest problems with Maroney was they tried to run him like Dillon. He is more of a guy who is more effective running off tackle and outside, but they ran him up the gut like they would Dillon a lot.

Personally, I would rather have a lesser guy like Kevin Curtis who is built for our system than take an expensive risk on a guy like Moss who doesn't really fit what we like to run.

While you raise good points about linebackers and the other WRs that have been acquired by this team, it's a totally different case. When BB had the original LT on his teams (someone who wasn't the prototypical 3-4 OLB), he altered his defensive scheme and tailored it for the skill set that Taylor (pun totally intended) provided. Lawrence Taylor was a superstar talent, someone who could drastically alter the way the game ended. Randy Moss (assuming that these last few years were a result of various outside factors and QB play) is that type of talent. None of the other WRs or other players that BB has brought in warrant that type of scheme change.

I think you missed my point with Maroney (not meant to be an insult). Maroney's skill set, which the club recognized could be gamechanging, warranted a change in the OL blocking schemes. I don't see why, with another potentially explosive talent (proven explosive), BB couldn't make the necessary changes to the offense.

They also were pretty serious about bringing in Javon Walker, who doesn't fit into their history of WR, either, but were going to do so anyway, because of the type of talent that he brought to the table. He was also a malcontent for the Packers.

I don't think Moss is going to be on the team because of his attitude, motivation, diminished skill set, cost, and other factors, but to write it off because he isn't like Deion or David Patten just doesn't cut it in my book.

 

[Rob0729]

I think the Pats offense is short-passed based not by design but rather because they have nobody who can get down the field consistently. They wouldn't bring Moss in and ask him to run 7 yard crossing routes, and if they did bring Moss in, there would be a lot more shots down the field, so I don't buy system as a reason not to bring him in. The sulking and general jackass attitude are valid reasons but for a 3rd or 4th round pick, depending on the finances, I think he's worth a shot.

The problem is that they have brought in players who can stretch the field and they have failed. Doug Gabriel is a lesser version of Moss and the word was that he was cut because he was too big to run the Patriots routes. Donald Hayes was a mistake. JJ Stokes didn't work. David Terrell didn't make it through training camp.

The Pats typically target smaller guys because those are the routes they run. I have no problem with them bringing in Moss to be a third WR and have him in on 3 plus WR sets and selected plays as the #1 or #2 WR. But the Pats would have to completely revamp their offense to accommodate Moss as an every down WR.

The Pats have had chances to add burners and stretch the field type of guys before and never had. Brady makes his bread and butter on his quick release which is arguably one of his greatest strengths. If we have Moss in the offense, we would take that away for Brady because he would have to hold onto the ball for several seconds longer on a frequent basis. I think the Pats would rather build the offense around Brady's strengths and weakness and not Moss'. I think their strengths and weaknesses conflict a bit.

Again, Moss as a back up or rotational guy would be great. Moss as a starter would be a waste. We aren't the Culpepper run Vikings offense where Culpepper was impossible to take down and had a cannon for an arm and could out throw the coverage and let Moss make plays. Brady makes his living on his brains, accurace, ability to read and pick apart defenses, and quick release; not his armstrength.

Moss needs a guy with a cannon for an arm who can throw it down field a dozen times a game. That ain't Brady.

 

[JoePats]

The problem is that they have brought in players who can stretch the field and they have failed. Doug Gabriel is a lesser version of Moss and the word was that he was cut because he was too big to run the Patriots routes. Donald Hayes was a mistake. JJ Stokes didn't work. David Terrell didn't make it through training camp.

The Pats typically target smaller guys because those are the routes they run. I have no problem with them bringing in Moss to be a third WR and have him in on 3 plus WR sets and selected plays as the #1 or #2 WR. But the Pats would have to completely revamp their offense to accommodate Moss as an every down WR.

The Pats have had chances to add burners and stretch the field type of guys before and never had. Brady makes his bread and butter on his quick release which is arguably one of his greatest strengths. If we have Moss in the offense, we would take that away for Brady because he would have to hold onto the ball for several seconds longer on a frequent basis. I think the Pats would rather build the offense around Brady's strengths and weakness and not Moss'. I think their strengths and weaknesses conflict a bit.

Again, Moss as a back up or rotational guy would be great. Moss as a starter would be a waste. We aren't the Culpepper run Vikings offense where Culpepper was impossible to take down and had a cannon for an arm and could out throw the coverage and let Moss make plays. Brady makes his living on his brains, accurace, ability to read and pick apart defenses, and quick release; not his armstrength.

Moss needs a guy with a cannon for an arm who can throw it down field a dozen times a game. That ain't Brady.

I could buy that, of course he's not coming here to be a #3 WR.

And never again compare Randy Moss to the above players (Gabriel, Stokes, Hayes, Terrell).

 

[Rob0729]

While you raise good points about linebackers and the other WRs that have been acquired by this team, it's a totally different case. When BB had the original LT on his teams (someone who wasn't the prototypical 3-4 OLB), he altered his defensive scheme and tailored it for the skill set that Taylor (pun totally intended) provided. Lawrence Taylor was a superstar talent, someone who could drastically alter the way the game ended. Randy Moss (assuming that these last few years were a result of various outside factors and QB play) is that type of talent. None of the other WRs or other players that BB has brought in warrant that type of scheme change.

I think you missed my point with Maroney (not meant to be an insult). Maroney's skill set, which the club recognized could be gamechanging, warranted a change in the OL blocking schemes. I don't see why, with another potentially explosive talent (proven explosive), BB couldn't make the necessary changes to the offense.

They also were pretty serious about bringing in Javon Walker, who doesn't fit into their history of WR, either, but were going to do so anyway, because of the type of talent that he brought to the table. He was also a malcontent for the Packers.

I don't think Moss is going to be on the team because of his attitude, motivation, diminished skill set, cost, and other factors, but to write it off because he isn't like Deion or David Patten just doesn't cut it in my book.

LT was the greatest LB, possibly defensive player ever. Moss isn't that anymore. Maybe if Moss was drafted by the Pats, but he is a 30 year old WR with a three year streak of average play, injuries, and poor attitude. You don't revise your offense on a bet that Moss can rebound. It may never happen.

Also, a big difference between LT and Moss is Brady. Brady is the guy you build the offense around and to fit the offense to accomodate Moss means you make Brady work outside his comfort zone. He has better armstrength than some give him credit for, but if you are constantly making him throw down field you take away what makes Brady so great.

We never got close to signing Walker. Who knows if the Pats' interest was purely to drive up his price for the Broncos who were in love with him? If we got close to signing Walker, maybe we could discuss it.

 

[ayjackson]

Did Lane Kiffen coach Matt Cassel?

I'm not saying we're interested in Moss, but maybe that's where our connection to Oakland is coming from and the Oakland media is inserting Moss as the player going the other way. I'd take Oakland's fourh for Matt and sign Rattay as Tom's backup.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Ok, if the Pats were interested, wouldn't they have traded for him last year before the deadline? I don't see it happening. Clinton Portis coming to the Pats seems more likely than Moss.

 

[Digger44]

Brady makes his bread and butter on his quick release which is arguably one of his greatest strengths. If we have Moss in the offense, we would take that away for Brady because he would have to hold onto the ball for several seconds longer on a frequent basis.

Rob, you type this as if Moss would be the only WR on the team. That is silly. We would still have plenty of WR to run the quick options. Believe it or not, Brady does no throw a quick pass on every given play. He does drop or even go into the shotgun to look for a WR. Having a legit deep threat would not take away for Bray at all. He would still have plenty of other WR to do quick passes to.

Moss needs a guy with a cannon for an arm who can throw it down field a dozen times a game. That ain't Brady.

Ummmmm Brady throws on of the hardest balls in the NFL. He has an excellent deep ball, but nobody to throw it to.

 

[Digger44]

Ok, if the Pats were interested, wouldn't they have traded for him last year before the deadline?

No not at all. It is possible the price was much higher last season. It seems to be at a 3rd round pick right now which is very reasonable.

 

[Rob0729]

Rob, you type this as if Moss would be the only WR on the team. That is silly. We would still have plenty of WR to run the quick options. Believe it or not, Brady does no throw a quick pass on every given play. He does drop or even go into the shotgun to look for a WR. Having a legit deep threat would not take away for Bray at all. He would still have plenty of other WR to do quick passes to.



Ummmmm Brady throws on of the hardest balls in the NFL. He has an excellent deep ball, but nobody to throw it to.

Moss is pretty limited in what he can do. What he can do he is great at (at least in the past), but he is not a guy who can run multiple types of routes. So he couldn't be out there on a large number of plays in our offense.

Brady doesn't throw the quick routes on every play, but he does it a lot and to gear an offense to accomodate Moss it would far less. I have already said Brady's armstrength is underrated, but he doesn't have the armstrength to throw 30 plus yard bombs a dozen times a game which is what Moss needs to be at his best. I never said Brady can't throw the deep ball, but he is at his best when he can surgically pick apart a defense 5-20 yards a throw not 60 yard bombs.

I am all for a legitimate deep threat. I am not all for an expensive player who has had a recent history of attitude problems and injuries and who is pretty much only a deep threat. Neither Branch or Givens were really great deep threat guys, but they were able to be good in that role in a limited basis.

We don't need a Moss for a deep threat. We can get a Kevin Curtis or someone like him who has the speed to be a deep threat at times, but fits in our system for every play or a third or fourth WR who is a deep threat specialist. We don't need a starter who is primarily a deep threat because he is wasted.

 

[Digger44]

Moss is pretty limited in what he can do. What he can do he is great at (at least in the past), but he is not a guy who can run multiple types of routes. So he couldn't be out there on a large number of plays in our offense.

Brady doesn't throw the quick routes on every play, but he does it a lot and to gear an offense to accomodate Moss it would far less. I have already said Brady's armstrength is underrated, but he doesn't have the armstrength to throw 30 plus yard bombs a dozen times a game which is what Moss needs to be at his best. I never said Brady can't throw the deep ball, but he is at his best when he can surgically pick apart a defense 5-20 yards a throw not 60 yard bombs.

I am all for a legitimate deep threat. I am not all for an expensive player who has had a recent history of attitude problems and injuries and who is pretty much only a deep threat. Neither Branch or Givens were really great deep threat guys, but they were able to be good in that role in a limited basis.

We don't need a Moss for a deep threat. We can get a Kevin Curtis or someone like him who has the speed to be a deep threat at times, but fits in our system for every play or a third or fourth WR who is a deep threat specialist. We don't need a starter who is primarily a deep threat because he is wasted.

I agree with some of what you say, but you make it out as if Moss can only do one single thing--jump. IMO you are very narrow minded with Moss. For some reason you want to insist that the guy can never run a route, make a cut, and that every pass to him must be a jump ball. This is all blown way out of proportion so you can make your point. You are very black and white and show it by saying Brady would need to throw 12 30+ yard bombs a game to make Moss successful. That is so overstated it is silly. Where the heck to 60 yard bombs come from? Please be reasonable here.

Yes Brady is at his best between 5-20 yards, but according to you Moss doesnt know how to run 20 yards, because he has to run at least 30-60. You try to make it out as if that is all the guy catches. I have some facts for you. You are wrong. The highest avg yds per catch was his rookie year at 19ypc. Guess what. That is not 30-60 yards. It is right in Brady's surgery zone you refer to. In fact his career is 15.8ypc. Not 30-60.

In Moss' best season he caught only 29% of his catches over 20 yards. That is only 32 catches out of 111. Where is the 12 long balls a game? Where is the other 71% of catches that you insist must be over 30 yards? If we were fair and added attempts in, Brady would only throw 3-4 long balls a game to Moss. That would bring a completion percentage of 50% (32 catches) which is realistic for Moss' talent.

Moss is not just a 30+yard receiver. Over his carrer only 32.5% of his catches were over 20 yards. Where were his other catches? In Brady's confort range.

I am not addressing his attitude or laziness because they are what they are. You can't keep painting the wrong picture of Moss with your black and white opinion that does not reflect his stats.

 

[signbabybrady]

I am not addressing his attitude or laziness because they are what they are. You can't keep painting the wrong picture of Moss with your black and white opinion that does not reflect his stats.

Your not adressing his Attitude and laziness is as unreasonable as thinking he only catches 20+ yard plays. while I don't think is baggage has to nix the deal you can't just ignore it. He is a quiter and has been arested more than once. that is enough to raise an eye brow. If we were talking about someone as talented as Moss who had no baggage I don't think to many people would think twice about the deal evan if he is a little past his prime.

 

[Digger44]

Your not adressing his Attitude and laziness is as unreasonable as thinking he only catches 20+ yard plays. while I don't think is baggage has to nix the deal you can't just ignore it. He is a quiter and has been arested more than once. that is enough to raise an eye brow. If we were talking about someone as talented as Moss who had no baggage I don't think to many people would think twice about the deal evan if he is a little past his prime.

What the heck are you talking about? Once again you add your own opinion onto what I actaully wrote. I DIDNT FREAKING IGNORE IT, I JUST DIDNT ADDRESS IT. Did you happen to read, "IT IS WHAT IT IS?" Could you please tell me just one where I said we should ignore it an get Moss? Come on guy.

My post is an evaluation of Moss' talent not his character. Could you please just knock it off? This is like the 3rd post where you added to what I wrote to make it say something totally different.

 

[Rob0729]

I agree with some of what you say, but you make it out as if Moss can only do one single thing--jump. IMO you are very narrow minded with Moss. For some reason you want to insist that the guy can never run a route, make a cut, and that every pass to him must be a jump ball. This is all blown way out of proportion so you can make your point. You are very black and white and show it by saying Brady would need to throw 12 30+ yard bombs a game to make Moss successful. That is so overstated it is silly. Where the heck to 60 yard bombs come from? Please be reasonable here.

Yes Brady is at his best between 5-20 yards, but according to you Moss doesnt know how to run 20 yards, because he has to run at least 30-60. You try to make it out as if that is all the guy catches. I have some facts for you. You are wrong. The highest avg yds per catch was his rookie year at 19ypc. Guess what. That is not 30-60 yards. It is right in Brady's surgery zone you refer to. In fact his career is 15.8ypc. Not 30-60.

In Moss' best season he caught only 29% of his catches over 20 yards. That is only 32 catches out of 111. Where is the 12 long balls a game? Where is the other 71% of catches that you insist must be over 30 yards? If we were fair and added attempts in, Brady would only throw 3-4 long balls a game to Moss. That would bring a completion percentage of 50% (32 catches) which is realistic for Moss' talent.

Moss is not just a 30+yard receiver. Over his carrer only 32.5% of his catches were over 20 yards. Where were his other catches? In Brady's confort range.

I am not addressing his attitude or laziness because they are what they are. You can't keep painting the wrong picture of Moss with your black and white opinion that does not reflect his stats.

I never said all he can do is jump. You keep on repeating that and I keep on saying that isn't what I am saying. Moss for his career has been a guy who has made his living playing a vertical game and basically giving his physical skills to OUT RUN or out jump his opponent. What made him so good in the past was that he was so much faster than DBs that he could get separation and then be able to adjust his route on long bombs by Culpepper. At times he was able to make great plays by out jumping his defender, but not all the time.

Where Moss is limited is that he is really only good at the intermediate to long routes. He is not a great screen pass catcher or a guy who goes over the middle a lot which the Pats like to do. He is better suited for a team who stretches the field more like Scott Lenahan's offense. I never said all the catches that Moss catches are deep bombs. I said he doesn't run the routes that the Pats like to run. The Pats usually throw 5-10 passes and some 15 to 20 yards and a few over that and that is not Moss' bread and butter.

Ok, 12 long balls may be too much. Make it six to eight. If Moss averaged 2 catches over 20 yards a game in his best year, that means Culpepper probably threw to him deep six to eight times a game. Passes over 20 yards are low percentage plays and a 30% completion percentage at that range is very good. I still don't think the Pats want to throw down the field that much.

By the way, with 32.5% of his catches being over 20 yards, that screams to me that Moss is a deep ball catcher. Almost a third of his catches are considered intermediate to deep catches and you are saying he isn't a deep ball catcher? For a guy who catches 80-100 balls a season when he was good? That screams to be that he is more of a burner than a short to intermediate WR to me. I bet most great WRs who aren't primarily deep ball WRs have about 15-20% of their passes over 20 yards.

 

[Rob0729]

Your not adressing his Attitude and laziness is as unreasonable as thinking he only catches 20+ yard plays. while I don't think is baggage has to nix the deal you can't just ignore it. He is a quiter and has been arested more than once. that is enough to raise an eye brow. If we were talking about someone as talented as Moss who had no baggage I don't think to many people would think twice about the deal evan if he is a little past his prime.

In fairness to Digger, we were only talking about his on the field production.

I think his attitude, his lack of production the last three years, his quitting on two different teams, and how he might fit into our offense are reasons why I don't want to trade for him unless we get him for a mid to late second day pick and he is willing to redo his contract that he has a close to veteran minimum salary with incentives. I am not willing to risk much that he can rebound to his 2003 level.

If we were getting the pre-2004 Moss, I might have a different attitude. At that point, he was guaranteed good enough to make the Pats at least considering revise their offense to accommodate his skills.

But we aren't getting the pre-2004. We are getting the 2007 Moss and no matter how you try to explain away the last three years, the fact is he hasn't produced enough to ignore his negatives like attitude. If we revamp our offense to accommodate Moss and what we saw the last three years of Moss is close to what he really is now we have potentially tanked an entire season.