Pats Claim DTs Quarles & Gaston (Update: Both Released)

[Ring 6]

1 I am basing it on BB's action over a decade, since he's had to turn over the roster, not based on reading his mind.

So am I. There is no evidence that your impression of this issue is any more applicable to this player than mine.

2 My point is that we have some battle tested backups now, plus vellano who is at least a dependable journeyman until he's cut. If our top backup were Forston and a green Vellano, like in 2013 I don't think the 2014 Kelly would have been cut.

So you agree there are better players at the position than Kelly?

3 No one said Kelly would play major snaps. No one said He was the Kelly of last year.

Oh, I thought that was your argument. What are you disagreeing with then?

That's right. We need to look at where our proven players are in age, and what our prospects are to find a top starter with out draft position or free agency. In my opinion, that will be difficult, costly and risky, so trying to develop young lower picks and UDFAs is a good strategy now.

You don't need to go 6 deep at DT to do that. It sounds like you feel we are throwing young players against the wall hoping they stick.

Speculation on your part. you don't know why he was cut, the quality of other veteran free agents etc.

Everything we have both said is speculation. Mine speculation is grounded in the belief that if a player can help us win, BB isn't cutting him. Why do we keep special teams players?

I would hazard a guess that there is a better veteran free agent than Moore right now available and that we don't want him, because we have one solid, and one outstanding young starter and would rather not waste snaps on someone on the down slope of their career when we can develop Buchanan and Moore. We didn't go from one of the oldest to one of the younger rosters without some tough decisions that involved experience versus upside.

If Smith would be our #3 DE this season, he would be here. Why would BB even sign Kelly and Smith if he is disgusted by age and will only keep young players?

Who projected Kelly to be a starter?

BB had him with the 1s.

You had expectations of him, I only had expectations that BB had a team building plan which included not being weak on the DL this year.

Wait, so he doesn't want the best team, he only wants to not be weak?
Why did he waste his time playing Kelly with the 1s?

Beyond that, i think he planned for the future. I expect Vellano to be cut if all the injured players are healthy. If not, he's a pure backup with a year's worth of playing under pressure, which is a lot better than early last year. I think BB's sleep was more dependent on the health of Salig/Jones/Easley, but having a Vellano with a year's experience available rather than Forston will at least ward off the nightmares for a bit.

BB actually knows what the health of those players is.
You seem to be stuck on analyzing BBs thought process based on him knowing only what we do.

 

[Ring 6]

Considering Easley, Jones and Siliga hardly played in the preseason, I don't think it would be hard to be one of the "top" DT in camp this year. I also don't think BB's decision making is as simple as you suggest.

Do you really think that everyone starts even when training camp starts, and the best player is the one who has the best training camp, including counting playing poorly as a better player than being out temporarily with an injury?

 

[RayClay]

How about we just call it 'best player for this season'?
Fair enough?

In this instance, I think Kelly could very well be the 2nd best DL the first game and not at all by mid-season. We have 3 DL who've hardly played.

Of course I do. You seem to want to define my opinion in a different way than it actually is.
We aren't talking about the last guy on the bench who is inactive, we are talking about a guy projected to start if he was what he used to be.
In any event, I am confident that every DT on the current roster would get on the field ahead of 2014 Tommy Kelly this Sunday if we had kept Kelly instead of say, Patrick Chung.
You are applying hypotheticals to this discussion that just don't line up.

Your conjecture

Hobbled? Why strawman the discussion?
Kelly may be better than what they cut, but he is not better than what we kept.

You said he's still injured. If he hasn't fully recovered from his ACL, he would be "hobbled."

"Reportedly deep" Huh?

I read reports. Here's two.

http://www.azcardinals.com/news-and...e-Injury/865fc516-9a73-4b3b-84c2-523ea9b58326

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...how-can-arizona-cardinals-replace-pro-bowl-dt

We have our veteran leader looking fine in Wilfork. we value youth to play now and build for the future. Kelly's the same player, but the teams have different situation and that's as much a function of talent evaluation as deciding who is "better"; who is the "better" fit for the teams present and future needs and goals.

That is your guess. I disagree. If Kelly were still the same player post injury at 33 that he was preinjury, he would still be here. I don't know why you insist on arguing that your guess is a fact.

I didn't say he was the same player. He's 33 and coming off surgery. He's also not facing the same competition. Last year it was a green Joe Vellano and Marcus Forston. This year it's 3 battle tested young players and the first round draft pick. I think he'd have made the team if those two (Vellano then) were the competition.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Deus Irae]

RayClay's been drinking?

 

[hwc]

Did you watch Kelly all summer in practice and your opinion is he's still too injured? I'm from out of state,. so I couldn't.

Honestly, I leave grading the players' practice and game performance to the Pats coaching staff that has:

a) access to the coaching tape
b) some expertise in football evaluation

Since the Pats coaches generally don't share their player evaluations with us, I try to read between the lines of their roster moves. At his reworked contract numbers, if the coaches thought that 33 year old post-ACL Kelley were one of the teams best DTs, I'm sure they would have kept him.

Basically, this is the age-old story. Vet gets injured. Young players get an opportunity to play and make the most of the opportunity. Old player gets the axe. See Bledsoe, Drew...

 

[RayClay]

.

Do you really think that everyone starts even when training camp starts, and the best player is the one who has the best training camp, including counting playing poorly as a better player than being out temporarily with an injury?

Not at all. All things being equal, BB would choose the younger players unless they were inept, because he has one all pro who's getting on in years and the need to overhaul the entire position in the near future. They demanded Kelly redo his contract way before his level of play could be ascertained, not based on his preseason play.

That's pretty much my argument and it seems to agree with what you are saying now.

 

[RayClay]

Basically, this is the age-old story. Vet gets injured. Young players get an opportunity to play and make the most of the opportunity. Old player gets the axe. See Bledsoe, Drew...

That's what I'm saying. I can't say any of these lineman compare to Brady at this point, but they are better than Velano with no experience and forston, which was our depth first game last year.

 

[Ring 6]

.


Not at all. All things being equal, BB would choose the younger players unless they were inept, because he has one all pro who's getting on in years and the need to overhaul the entire position in the near future. They demanded Kelly redo his contract way before his level of play could be ascertained, not based on his preseason play.

That's pretty much my argument and it seems to agree with what you are saying now.

I haven't changed what I've been saying.
Kellys contract was redone because he was injured.
If you want to really think that there is no dropoff in a player having knee surgery after 10 years in the league at DT, that's fine.
I think this discussion has run its course, and I feel no differently than when it started.

 

[mayoclinic]

From Reiss' chat today:

Frank in Woodland Hills:

Hi Mike. I watched tape on Kelcy Quarles this week and got really excited at the prospect of him contributing to this defense. His size and skill set to me seem like he could make an immediate impact so of course I was disappointed to see Bill release him. What are your thoughts on him landing back on the practice squad and your thoughts on his potential going into the future. I think this guy could be lights out with easley.jones.wilfork.etc.. Thank you

Mike (12:54 PM): Quarles would be an obvious choice to stick on the practice squad. But I think the question for Quarles is whether it's the best fit here (5 days) or with the Giants (3.5 months). The Patriots made their pitch with the idea that they think highly enough of him to put him on the 53-man roster for a few days -- something the Giants wouldn't do. Is that enough to sway him? Not sure. Let's see what happens today. I am always fascinated by these roster decisions.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/chat/_/id/51081

 

[mgteich]

From Reiss' chat today:



http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/chat/_/id/51081

Does a player make any extra money being on the 53 for a few days, not including Game Day?

 

[PP2]

From Reiss' chat today:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/chat/_/id/51081

I agree with this. Let's see what happens once Quarles clears waivers. Wouldn't be surprised to see him on the PS soon.

 

[JMC00]

Apparently still with the Pats.

Jeff Howe @jeffphowe
Cleared waivers, back to the PS, I'd presume RT @KelcyQuarles: I'm still a patriot

 

[Danger Zone]

Honestly, I leave grading the players' practice and game performance to the Pats coaching staff that has:

a) access to the coaching tape
b) some expertise in football evaluation

Since the Pats coaches generally don't share their player evaluations with us, I try to read between the lines of their roster moves. At his reworked contract numbers, if the coaches thought that 33 year old post-ACL Kelley were one of the teams best DTs, I'm sure they would have kept him.

Basically, this is the age-old story. Vet gets injured. Young players get an opportunity to play and make the most of the opportunity. Old player gets the axe. See Bledsoe, Drew...

c) Has hours and hours of actual personal interaction and face to face with the player almost every day.

Think of how much we pretend we better know a player after watching that player for a total of about an hour of film time over the course of a whole season of Hard Knocks.

Now read c again and just imagine how much better a feel Belichick and the coaches can get for a prospect than we can.

 

[captain stone]

I don't recall who beat him out, but I remember us being pretty deep on the OL then.
Who did we keep that turned out worse?

Don't know which of the following made the Opening Day 53, but as per Football DB,
http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/new-england-patriots/roster/2010,
these are the OLmen I would not have kept ahead of Larsen:
Matt Katula
Richie Oburger
Quinn Ojinnaka
and of course, Ryan Wendy

 

[mayoclinic]

Dolphins claim Bruce Gaston off waivers, per Doug Kyed on twitter. They passed on him 3 days ago when the Pats picked him up.

https://twitter.com/DougKyedNESN/status/507647333454999552

Payback for Don Jones?

 

[Joey007]

Dolphins claim Bruce Gaston off waivers, per Doug Kyed on twitter. They passed on him 3 days ago when the Pats picked him up.

https://twitter.com/DougKyedNESN/status/507647333454999552

Payback for Don Jones?

Shoulda gotten Quarles if they wanted payback.

 

[Jimke]

Apparently still with the Pats.

Jeff Howe @jeffphowe
Cleared waivers, back to the PS, I'd presume RT @KelcyQuarles: I'm still a patriot

Don't count our chickens too fast. Soon after Quarles made his quote on twitter, he deleted it. Also, after
his release, one of the beat writers reported his locker had been removed. I hope he is re-signed but I
expect to see competition from other teams.

 

[Jimke]

Don't count our chickens too fast. Soon after Quarles made his quote on twitter, he deleted it. Also, after
his release, one of the beat writers reported his locker had been removed. I hope he is re-signed but I
expect to see competition from other teams.

For what it's worth? Per nj.com 7:22 P.M. 9/4/2014
Kelce Quarles heads to Patriots practice squad. Giants fill last opening on practice squad with DL

 

[RayClay]

yup

Ex-Giants news: Kelcy Quarles heads to Patriots practice squad and Andre Brown banned 8 games | NJ.com

Giants seem to make a point of not signing him again, since they put a different DL as the10th on the practice squad.

 

[supafly]

That's what I saw as well. Not sure how it could be read any other way.

It seemed pretty clear to me, so I'm glad to see that I'm not losing my mind