Patriots vs Bengals Post-Game Thread

[DaBruinz]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

No that not what I am doing actually, I’m talking about the current state of the 53 man roster which is as I said not constructed well, now we are in agreement that the current state of the roster at least partially because of injuries but that does not change the fact that the current roster is not well constructed – my post was not to discuss the circumstances or methodology of how we arrived at an outcome that does not change the outcome which is as I said a poorly constructed roster.

Are you disagreeing and suggesting that this current 53 man roster is constructed in a way that will make this a great or even a good team Ivan? Or are you disagree with my pointing out that it is not because you’re a diehard Patriots fan and as a diehard Patriots fan when the roster is poorly constructed we are all supposed to ignore the actualities and make no mention of it?

So, basically, you are saying that we have to look at the roster in a vacuum. That we are to IGNORE the circumstances that put the roster the way it is? We're to ignore that we lost Wilfork for the year, forcing Vellano into a starting role. We're to ignore the situation with Hernandez and the Gronk injury as we look at the TE situation..

Only people with no knowledge of football and the salary cap look at rosters 5 games into the season and ignore how the roster got to be that way and say that the "roster is poorly constructed" when, in fact, the Pats are playing 3rd and 4th stringers at RB, TE, and DT due to injury. Forget about the fact that those injured players will be returning (at least at RB and TE). But, yeah, the 53 is poorly constructed because their starting 2 RBs are injured, their starting 2 DTs are injured, their Starting TE is injured and their 2nd TE is in Jail.. But, YEAH. the roster is poorly constructed.. *sigh*

Only people with no knowledge ignore the fact that Special Teams has six different units and that you need players who can play on those units and that those players have value.

 

[DocHoliday]

Drops were not the issue in this game, Brady was. This season Brady is staring down his receivers, and he's getting flustered at the first sight of anything other than a perfectly clean pocket. There were times in this game where his throws were Tebow-like. He is playing like garbage, and he is the primary reason for the offense's struggles.

I am sick of hearing about his "familiarity" with the young receivers. He's a frickin NFL QB. Hit the open guy. How much "familiarity" did Hoyer have with his receivers when he carved up Cinci a week ago? The only thing worse than his play is the way he's carrying himself. The Tom Brady of 2013 is a hard guy to root for.

You don't 'throw to the open guy'. You throw to one of severals spot on the field determined by the play that defenders aren't converging on. Worrying about whether or not a Patriots receiver will actually be there to catch it severely hampers a QB.

 

[iapatsfan]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

You are the one kidding yourself. First off, you clearly don't understand the importance of special teams. There is more than just kick-off coverage. There are actually SIX different units. You have Kick-offs, Kick returns, Punts, Punt Returns, Field Goals, and Field Goal Blocking.

Furthermore, your assessment of the tail end of the roster shows how little you know about football and that you have a LOT more to learn. Complaining about Vellano starting is just laughable. As is your complaining about Hoomanawanui and Blount. Vellano's taking the spot left by the Wilfork injury. You can't forsee injuries like that. And you can't have All-Pro back-ups at every position. Pretending like you can, as you are doing, shows the lack of knowledge you have. Hoomanawanui is starting because of the Injury to Gronkowski and Hernandez's issues. Otherwise, Hoomanawanui would be on the sidelines most games. Same with Mulligan.

His general point is valid. This team lacks talent in a big way. That's no big deal though because what our guys lack in explosive play-making ability, they make up for in their "love of football", "hard working attitude", "football IQ" and their over all good guyness. Guys like Tavon Wilson, Harmon, Villano, Arrington, Hooman and Ebner don't offer much in terms of ability, but they sure know how to "do their jobs". So no worries guys, we're in good hands.

 

[iapatsfan]

You don't 'throw to the open guy'. You throw to a spot on the field that defenders aren't converging on. Worrying about whether or not a Patriots receiver will be there to catch it severely hampers a QB.

Yeah, that was the issue today. Brady was throwing exactly where he wanted to, but nobody was there. Please. Pressure is affecting Him more this year than it ever has, and he's playing like a bum as a result.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

It is not a high opinion of myself it is a difference in perspective I am not saying mine is better than yours, maybe my view is overconfident which is not better than insecure, I am simply saying you and I are not going to agree on this type of discussion because we are outlook is dramatically different. Like I said though I am not saying I am right and you’re wrong, so please do not take what I wrote to perceive I think I am superior to you or my positions are superior to yours because I do not, I just am recognizing that they are different in this type of context.

You clearly don't read your own posts because you DID say that everyone who disagreed with you is wrong.

You can give me grief for this post but let’s not kid ourselves here – this roster is not well constructed right now and any suggestion otherwise is a fail.

Furthermore, you were clearly taking a shot at BB even though you didn't outright say it.

The problem is that you are the type of fan who is downright critical of every move that Belichick makes or doesn't make and you feel you can do a better job. And you are perfectly willing to tell everyone how right you are. But when confronted, you get your panties all in a wad and try to spin your way out of it the way a washing spins clothes to get the water out.

 

[DaBruinz]

I didn't see the game, so basically I just have questions ?

1) Was there a main culprit as far as the dropped passes I keep hearing about ? Or did all the receivers have the dropsies today ? All the receivers but Dobson had drops.
2) Statistically, Dobson has the 2 longest offensive plays of the year for the Pats, a 54 yard reception (today) and a 39 yard reception. Where those pure luck, or does he actually have some talent and a possible bright future ? I wish he would have gotten rid of that god forsaken #17, that number is cursed as far as Patriots. Dobson has a lot of talent and he does have a bright future. People saying otherwise do so because they either don't understand the game or have Dobson confused with Thompkins
3) Were there ANY positives ? Just looking at the statistics, Chris Jones had 1.5 sacks, sounds like he had a very good game. I always liked this signing, had 12 sacks as a senior, and already has 1.5 sacks in only 2 NFL games. We might have something here. There were lots of positives on the defense. Chris Jones was one of them.
4) I watched the Denver/Cowboys game, and I curse the football gods for not giving Brady the weapons Peyton Manning and Tony Romo have. It's actually painful to watch those guys throwing bombs all day, and we can't even score a ******* TD. We have to put some blame on BB for this (besides the football gods), how dare he not surround Brady with explosive talent like other top QBs have. I was even thinking about Larry Fitzgerald, imagine him playing for Brady instead of being stuck in Arizona. My other thoughts/questions are, regardless of what Brady has, he always had the ability of making them look good. What happened to that ? Has Brady lost anything ? What happened today was a multitude of things. Wendell and Connolly were poor against Geno Atkins. When the O-line adjusted, then Dunlap and Dingleberry put pressure on Brady. The Receivers (except Dobson) had a case of the dropsies. Amendola, Edelman, Thompkins, Bolden. Hoomanawanui.

5) I really expected the Pats to lose to Atlanta, Cincy and New Orleans after we were 3-0, now we are 4-1, does anyone realistically think the Pats even have a sliver or hope to beat NO even if Gronk plays ? Personally I expect us to be 4-2 after next week. I'm just facing reality, NO is just a better team than us. And even if Gronk plays, who says this offense we have will be any more cohesive ? Not panicking or jumping off of a bridge, just being honest and realistic. I will be shocked if we beat NO.

I see no reason why the Pats can't be New Orleans if they play their game and show the kind of offense they did last week against Tampa Bay. The big thing will be to have Ridley and/or Bolden both healthy and for the O-line to play up to the standards we expect. That means Wendell and Connolly have to step up their game.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

You are the one kidding yourself. First off, you clearly don't understand the importance of special teams. There is more than just kick-off coverage. There are actually SIX different units. You have Kick-offs, Kick returns, Punts, Punt Returns, Field Goals, and Field Goal Blocking.

Furthermore, your assessment of the tail end of the roster shows how little you know about football and that you have a LOT more to learn. Complaining about Vellano starting is just laughable. As is your complaining about Hoomanawanui and Blount. Vellano's taking the spot left by the Wilfork injury. You can't forsee injuries like that. And you can't have All-Pro back-ups at every position. Pretending like you can, as you are doing, shows the lack of knowledge you have. Hoomanawanui is starting because of the Injury to Gronkowski and Hernandez's issues. Otherwise, Hoomanawanui would be on the sidelines most games. Same with Mulligan.

Who is injured, who is playing for who, and all the other things you wrote are all just excuses the fact is the current roster in its current state is poor, you can write in red next to any name you want or post any "until" or "when" you want and it doesn't change anything. I am posting in the here and now and if you take the 53 man roster and match it up against an elite team we're not currently positioned to win, could that change as the season progresses? Absolutely and that is my hope, but it could just as easily worsen.

As far as my knowledge or lack of as you said a handful of times I would match what I know about the game of football and the Patriots up against your knowledge any day of the week, in fact I am so confident in my knowledge that unlike you I do not feel compelled to label others as lacking knowledge in order to make myself feel better or perceive intelligence as a poster.

You can disagree with my posts all you want that is a non issue but you don't know me from Adam so don't be ignorant and speculate on what I do and do not know or understand, so you can shut that down right now, you entitled to speak to my posts not to speak to me, learn to have boundaries in life, not having them exhibits very poor social skills.

 

[Claremonster]

This is obviously a transition rebuilding year. AHern, Weklah, Gonk and Vereen are bigger losses than we originally thought (also Wilcawk). Rookies are learning on the fly, and will most likely be better down the road...but, will suffer some losses for the present.

 

[Ivan]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

His general point is valid. This team lacks talent in a big way. That's no big deal though because what our guys lack in explosive play-making ability, they make up for in their "love of football", "hard working attitude", "football IQ" and their over all good guyness. Guys like Tavon Wilson, Harmon, Villano, Arrington, Hooman and Ebner don't offer much in terms of ability, but they sure know how to "do their jobs". So no worries guys, we're in good hands.

lmao-they don't lack talent by any stretch of the imagination, they are just really banged up and have a good deal of it watching instead of contributing, and this idea that their 3rd and 4th stringers are supposed to be pro bowlers is crap, they usually don't see the field that much, most are young and inexperienced, and they haven't been i the league long enough to have the opportunity to develop their talent.

Brady-GOAT---not the bum you just called him.

Ridley-talented

Vereen-talented

Amendola-talented

Gronkowski-talented

Edelman-talented

Dobson talented (inexperienced)

Solder-talented

mankins-Talented

Vollmer-talented



Wilfork-talented

Kelly-talented

C. Jones-talented

Ninkovich-talented

Hightower-talented

Mayo-talented

Spikes-talented

McCourty-talented

Talib-talented

Dennard-talented

Gostkowski-talented

J. Collins-talented (inexperienced)




The idea the Patriots are a bunch of jags is pure and utter crap, but like any other team their depth is not filled with pro bowl caliber players, but is still good enough to keep them winning when called upon,. and you simply cannot ask for more than that. the real problem isn't the Patriots talent it is the hubris of a contingent of their fans who have come to believe through fantasy football and Madden that they actually know more about football than the people running one of the most successful teams in the history of football. And for anyone who wants to dispute that you can go ahead and list the teams and accomplishments of them that surpass the run this Patriots team has been on under Belichick.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Yeah, not getting a TD there was enormous. You get to the 1-yard line, have a first down, and you HAVE to get a touchdown.

Especially since (a) they hadn't shown any signs of being able to move the ball for long drives all day, (b) were only at that position thanks to a single big play -- also something not particularly reproducible given how they were playing. That was clearly their best shot to get a TD all day and the offense was sputtering so much there was huge doubt they'd ever get that close again.

 

[Ivan]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

You clearly don't read your own posts because you DID say that everyone who disagreed with you is wrong.



Furthermore, you were clearly taking a shot at BB even though you didn't outright say it.

The problem is that you are the type of fan who is downright critical of every move that Belichick makes or doesn't make and you feel you can do a better job. And you are perfectly willing to tell everyone how right you are. But when confronted, you get your panties all in a wad and try to spin your way out of it the way a washing spins clothes to get the water out.

I just put him on ignore because he is so arrogant that reading his posts make me want to throw up. I was however very grateful to him for explaining to us and educating us on the fact that good athletes have to be good athletes. That is some serious intellect and insight we have been blessed with.

 

[iapatsfan]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

lmao-they don't lack talent by any stretch of the imagination, they are just really banged up and have a good deal of it watching instead of contributing, and this idea that their 3rd and 4th stringers are supposed to be pro bowlers is crap, they usually don't see the field that much, most are young and inexperienced, and they haven't been i the league long enough to have the opportunity to develop their talent.

Brady-GOAT---not the bum you just called him.

Ridley-talented

Vereen-talented

Amendola-talented

Gronkowski-talented

Edelman-talented

Dobson talented (inexperienced)

Solder-talented

mankins-Talented

Vollmer-talented



Wilfork-talented

Kelly-talented

C. Jones-talented

Ninkovich-talented

Hightower-talented

Mayo-talented

Spikes-talented

McCourty-talented

Talib-talented

Dennard-talented

Gostkowski-talented

J. Collins-talented (inexperienced)




The idea the Patriots are a bunch of jags is pure and utter crap, but like any other team their depth is not filled with pro bowl caliber players, but is still good enough to keep them winning when called upon,. and you simply cannot ask for more than that. the real problem isn't the Patriots talent it is the hubris of a contingent of their fans who have come to believe through fantasy football and Madden that they actually know more about football than the people running one of the most successful teams in the history of football. And for anyone who wants to dispute that you can go ahead and list the teams and accomplishments of them that surpass the run this Patriots team has been on under Belichick.

Obviously anybody playing in the NFL is talented, but it's all relative and the Patriots have very few playmakers on their roster. Even if I give you everybody you mentioned, which I wouldn't, that is less than half the roster.

Brady has played like a bum, and their loss today was directly related to his inability to deal with real or perceived pressure.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

Who is injured, who is playing for who, and all the other things you wrote are all just excuses the fact is the current roster in its current state is poor, you can write in red next to any name you want or post any "until" or "when" you want and it doesn't change anything...

You've made some solid points in this thread.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

Who is injured, who is playing for who, and all the other things you wrote are all just excuses the fact is the current roster in its current state is poor, you can write in red next to any name you want or post any "until" or "when" you want and it doesn't change anything. I am posting in the here and now and if you take the 53 man roster and match it up against an elite team we're not currently positioned to win, could that change as the season progresses? Absolutely and that is my hope, but it could just as easily worsen.

No. They aren't excuses. They are REALITY. I know you have issues with that. You've shown that on numerous occasions. You clearly don't understand that you can only have so much top talent on a team and that when that talent is injured, the people behind have to step up. There is no possible way to have top talent at every back-up position. You saying otherwise is a clear lack of understanding of reality. Oh, and you changing your story like you attempted to do with Ivan doesn't help you either.

You are saying the Pats current 53 man roster is bad because they are having to start their 3rd string RB, their 3rd string TE and their 2nd string DT. Furthermore, crap on the special teams players as if they don't contribute. And that includes Gostkowski and Allen. (And Allen is someone I can admit is starting to prove me wrong about them letting Mesko go as he did a helluva job today).

Only fools ignore reality. And reality is that you can't have All-Pros at every position, including your 3rd and 4th strings. In fact, most teams have only AVERAGE 2nd stringers and worse behind them. And that includes teams like the Saints and Broncos.

As far as my knowledge or lack of as you said a handful of times I would match what I know about the game of football and the Patriots up against your knowledge any day of the week, in fact I am so confident in my knowledge that unlike you I do not feel compelled to label others as lacking knowledge in order to make myself feel better or perceive intelligence as a poster.

Yet, you have done exactly that in your posts.

You can give me grief for this post but let’s not kid ourselves here – this roster is not well constructed right now and any suggestion otherwise is a fail.

Sorry, but you've not shown your knowledge of the Pats or football very well at all. Particularly in your rant about the Pats drafting or in this thread where you complain worse than a tired 5 year old not wanting to go to bed.

You can disagree with my posts all you want that is a non issue but you don't know me from Adam so don't be ignorant and speculate on what I do and do not know or understand, so you can shut that down right now, you entitled to speak to my posts not to speak to me, learn to have boundaries in life, not having them exhibits very poor social skills.

I don't need to speculate on what you do and don't know. You clearly show what you do and don't know every time you post. I am entitled to speak my opinion. If you don't like it, tough. It is you who doesn't have to post and get your panties all in a wad because people disagree with you and tell you how wrong you are in your thinking. Especially when you blatantly ignore reality, as you have done here.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

I saw Chris Jones 1.5 sacks. Saying that he was in the right place at the right time screams of a lack of knowledge of the game. Jones got by his blocker and took Dalton down. It wasn't like anyone didn't try to stop him. He got by them..

Lack of knowledge seriously OK. You should watch again because Vellano split the double team forced Jones blocker to help out and then ran Dalton into an unblocked Jones for the 1.0 sack and then Mayo made the play and Jones cleaned up on the 0.5.

The only knowledge I lack is that for which would tell what you're going to make up next. You bluff like we're playing poker and use the "lack of knowledge" line to disguise it. Well I call your bluff and raise you all in Mr. Knowledgeable.

 

[sieglo]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

All I know is that I hated the call to go deep on first down after the Mayo fumble recovery. What was McDaniels thinking?!

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

So, basically, you are saying that we have to look at the roster in a vacuum. That we are to IGNORE the circumstances that put the roster the way it is? We're to ignore that we lost Wilfork for the year, forcing Vellano into a starting role. We're to ignore the situation with Hernandez and the Gronk injury as we look at the TE situation..

Only people with no knowledge of football and the salary cap look at rosters 5 games into the season and ignore how the roster got to be that way and say that the "roster is poorly constructed" when, in fact, the Pats are playing 3rd and 4th stringers at RB, TE, and DT due to injury. Forget about the fact that those injured players will be returning (at least at RB and TE). But, yeah, the 53 is poorly constructed because their starting 2 RBs are injured, their starting 2 DTs are injured, their Starting TE is injured and their 2nd TE is in Jail.. But, YEAH. the roster is poorly constructed.. *sigh*

Only people with no knowledge ignore the fact that Special Teams has six different units and that you need players who can play on those units and that those players have value.

Blah, blah I use the word knowledge a lot to build myself up - like I said my knowledge vs. your knowledge anytime, I'm totally up for it, we can meet at a bar near Gillette and do a trivia of football and all things Patriots we can invite some other members make a night of it.

If I win you elimate the word knowledge from your posting vocab and you can pick what you get. You up for it buddy?

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

No. They aren't excuses. They are REALITY. I know you have issues with that. You've shown that on numerous occasions. You clearly don't understand that you can only have so much top talent on a team and that when that talent is injured, the people behind have to step up. There is no possible way to have top talent at every back-up position. You saying otherwise is a clear lack of understanding of reality. Oh, and you changing your story like you attempted to do with Ivan doesn't help you either.

You are saying the Pats current 53 man roster is bad because they are having to start their 3rd string RB, their 3rd string TE and their 2nd string DT. Furthermore, crap on the special teams players as if they don't contribute. And that includes Gostkowski and Allen. (And Allen is someone I can admit is starting to prove me wrong about them letting Mesko go as he did a helluva job today).

Only fools ignore reality. And reality is that you can't have All-Pros at every position, including your 3rd and 4th strings. In fact, most teams have only AVERAGE 2nd stringers and worse behind them. And that includes teams like the Saints and Broncos.



Yet, you have done exactly that in your posts.



Sorry, but you've not shown your knowledge of the Pats or football very well at all. Particularly in your rant about the Pats drafting or in this thread where you complain worse than a tired 5 year old not wanting to go to bed.



I don't need to speculate on what you do and don't know. You clearly show what you do and don't know every time you post. I am entitled to speak my opinion. If you don't like it, tough. It is you who doesn't have to post and get your panties all in a wad because people disagree with you and tell you how wrong you are in your thinking. Especially when you blatantly ignore reality, as you have done here.

Wrong I am saying the current roster 53 man roster in its current condition is poor because of all the circumstances - injuries, inexperience, etc. if the players you've mentioned return or gain experience then yes the roster improves, but just as easily as one of those key players returns another key player could go down so my post is in reference to the roster on 10/6/2013, my speculating of what or if could occur is not an assured outcome and neither is yours. I am not talking about week 10 just like I'm not talking about week 1 of 2014 things change every week in the NFL.

My panties aren't in a wad but since we're being honest I just feel you post with the social skills of a 3 year old angry autistic and show a lack of common courtesy and an inability to pick up simple social queues.

Glad we could have this little honest chat, but I'm done now no need to fight with other grown men I prefer xxx websites over sports forums to get my rocks off so continue to spread your knowledge to us simpletons and have a great night.

 

[Ivan]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

Obviously anybody playing in the NFL is talented, but it's all relative and the Patriots have very few playmakers on their roster. Even if I give you everybody you mentioned, which I wouldn't, that is less than half the roster.

Brady has played like a bum, and their loss today was directly related to his inability to deal with real or perceived pressure.

The players i listed other than dobson and Collins have all shown they can play at a high level in the NFL, that's what makes them talented, and the Patriots offense put up the 3rd most points in NFL history last year, and although Welker was great and Hernadez good they weren't the reasons the offense was so good just a part of it.

Their defense is now one of the better units in the NFL and are still young and developing, and they didn't get their because they "lack talent." So the bottom line is that you guys can talk all the garbage you want about how much this team, Belichick, and Brady suck but the truth is they are unbelievably successful and have been all along and it is because they are talented, smart, and play as a team, and their record and achievments demonstrate that over and over. All you guys have to back up your claims is bluster, because the facts say otherwise, and to disprove that you will need facts, because believe it or not they outweigh all the bluster and Brady6's incredibly deluded opinion of himself.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: The current state of the 53 man roster…

Lack of knowledge seriously OK. You should watch again because Vellano split the double team forced Jones blocker to help out and then ran Dalton into an unblocked Jones for the 1.0 sack and then Mayo made the play and Jones cleaned up on the 0.5.

The only knowledge I lack is that for which would tell what you're going to make up next. You bluff like we're playing poker and use the "lack of knowledge" line to disguise it. Well I call your bluff and raise you all in Mr. Knowledgeable.

Yes, lack of knowledge.
On the sack at 4:23 of the 2nd. Jones is lined up between the RT and RG. Vellano is offset from the OC. Ball is snapped and JONES is doubled immediately. Vellano powers through on the OC's RIGHT. The RG attempts to pass Jones off to the RT so he can pick up Vellano, however, Jones STUNTS inside past the RG and Vellano and makes the sack.

On the sack at 7:06 of the 3rd quarter, Jones is lined up on the center. Jones BEATS the center and is putting pressure on Dalton from the Right with Hightower from the left. This causes Dalton to attempt to step up and doing so lands into Mayo.

There is no bluff on my part. I know my stuff. Do yourself a favor and go learn what a stunt is. Then you'll understand that Jones "getting in clean" after he pulls off the double team is part of the play.