Patriots offered Mankins Top 3 Guard Pay

[BSR]

BostonHerald.com - Blogs: Rap Sheet Blog Archive Agent for Logan Mankins on contract negotiations with the Patriots: ”It’s dead.”

provides more details on the Patriots' offers. I doubt that the Patriots' final offer would have paid Mankins close to what Jahri Evans got in the first 3 years of his deal ($25.6 million) if they wanted him to compensate him in 2010 just the RFA tender.

$42.5 million total
$3.2 first year
$16.9 last four years ($42.5 minus $25.6)
means paying $22.4 million in 2011 and 2012 which would be more money than Wilfork got in his contract for the 2010 and 2011 seasons. I doubt that would be ever true.

So according to that article, Mankins wants to be paid Evans money. I don't think that was ever realistic for the Patriots to pay.

 

[BSR]

THANK YOU, again.

As you noted on a prior page, all the reports are that they offered a 5 year/35M deal, for after the RFA year where he would play at 3.5M, ultimately making it 6 years for 6.4M per year at average. That would only make him paid like a top 10 guard, not the top 3 guard as widely reported. It's the same smear campaign that Wilfork experienced last year mid-season, when pre-emptive reports came out (who knows if they were true) that Wilfork was offered X dollars and didn't re-sign to paint him as the bad guy if he didn't re-sign.

If you're Logan Mankins and unlike a lot of other players from your class, you played out the entirety of your long, crappy underpaid rookie deal, and expected to get re-upped without playing the RFA offer. Then, you find out that the team expects you to play one more year way underpaid again, and after that to get offered a salary 1/5 below that of where you think you are worth.

I think a lot of people here would completely change their positions if they were actually Logan Mankins.

His being a RFA this year is not the Patriots fault. His angst should be directed towards his union. They don't need to negotiate at all with him this year. These are the rules that he has to play under, just like the rest of us have to adhere to certain rules in our own lives.

I also note the dates listed by the agent.

He says the last time he has spoken to the team was May 4th. At that point the Patriots asked if they put together and Evans type deal if they would agree. The agent said yes and they parted ways.

Then not having spoken to the Patriots, the agent allows his client to go to the media on June 15th and declare that he is done and wants to be traded.

Its perfectly clear to me that the agent botched this.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

BostonHerald.com - Blogs: Rap Sheet Blog Archive Agent for Logan Mankins on contract negotiations with the Patriots: ”It’s dead.”

provides more details on the Patriots' offers. I doubt that the Patriots' final offer would have paid Mankins close to what Jahri Evans got in the first 3 years of his deal ($25.6 million) if they wanted him to compensate him in 2010 just the RFA tender.

$42.5 million total
$3.2 first year
$16.9 last four years ($42.5 minus $25.6)
means paying $22.4 million in 2011 and 2012 which would be more money than Wilfork got in his contract for the 2010 and 2011 seasons. I doubt that would be ever true.

Who says they wanted to compensate him just the RFA tender in 2010? They may indeed choose to use that as his base salary, but if they want to front load with a roster bonus they could. My sense is they may have preferred to do a split signing/option bonus to make the cap hits more manageable down the line and the cash flow a little easier on the eve of a lockout. I wish Frank would just get it over with and tell us what the structure was and what was guaranteed. Is there a reason he won't??

It seems the team attempted to give him a top 3 new money average ($7.1M) in exchange for retaining the RFA year. They tend to do that here, something each side can spin into a win. It's what they did with Seymour. The kicker is the guaranteed money and first 3. Would have to be $18M and/or $24M to make that top 3 case fly. Wilfork was guaranteed $20. Regardless of what Jhari Evans deal averages in mostly unguaranteed money, Mankins was never going to top Wilfork here in average or guarantees. He'd be fortunate to top him in total value simply by virtue of a longer deal. He's a guard for christ sakes... If he averages $8M+ what the hell is the LT (not to mention C and RT) gonna need to avearge in a couple of years...when the cap is back.

Jhari Evans is a RG for a 6' left handed QB. He emerged as a starter from day 1 out of the 4th round and also hasn't missed a start. He won a ring last year and he was a first team all pro playing on an RFA tender. He's 2 years younger and he didn't throw a hissy or hold out when tendered the first time or again this season. He got a deal that worked for him and the Saints. Most of it is unguaranteed, so who knows if he ever sees it. What he will see is $19M and probably $25M over the first 3 although his front loaded salary could make that unlikely if his performance drops off for any reason. Scouts and his HC however don't think it will and think he's the top young guard in the league and a potential perennial pro bowler. Mankins has been to 2 pro bowls, but he hasn't performed like a pro bowler over the last two seasons as teams all to often had their way with Tommy via pressure up the middle.

Faneca's deal averaged $8M over 5 years. All that mattered was the guaranteed money because he was cut in year 3. He's no longer even in the top 10... His 2010 deal pays him $2.5M...so his 3 year averaged turned out to be $7.2M.

 

[Miguel]

Jhari Evans is a RG for a 6' left handed QB.

Drew Brees is left-handed?? Either you do not know that Brees throws right-handed

YouTube - DrewBrees Sport Science or if you did know and try to mislead your fellow Patsfans members.

 

[BTTA]

This is the clash of two differing belief systems

1. The team, who puts a value range on a position, are probably actually stretching with the offer they've put on the table for a guard. Almost all businesses are run this way, with salary ranges for certain roles, based on their contribution to the overall success of the enterprise.

2. The agent, who ranks players across the entire league, regardless of employer, and puts a value range on the player in that manner. From this perspective, the Pats offer is a bit low, if Mankins is indeed a top 3 guard.

Arguing about who is being more or less ethical or truthful isn't really core to the issue, except that it creates interpersonal distance that makes it harder to bridge the philosophical distance.

I feel bad for Mankins. His agent should have recognized Mankin's orientation as being somewhat black and white about life, and stubborn in that regard, and thus making it more difficult to compromise his views with those of the Pats. So the distance that's been created has widened unnecessarily.

He was on the verge of being in the top .0005% of people alive on the planet in terms of wealth. Now, if he just quits football, he'll be in the top .005%, given his earnings thus far.

 

[Miguel]

So his play had nothing to do with his Pro Bowl selections. Mankins was getting mentioned as a top echelon guard BEFORE the 2007 season

What's the difference between #32 and #45?
[/quote]
Why does that matter? If Mankins was not drafted by the Pats at 32, he would have went to the 49ers at 33.

The entire Patriots line practically made the Pro Bowl that year, even Koppen. Brady was a large part of their success. Do I believe Mankins makes the Pro Bowl if he's not blocking for Brady or Manning or Rivers? No. I don't think he does.

What is it about Mankins' play on the field that is not Pro-Bowl/All-Pro level/Top 5 level?

 

[Miguel]

Who says they wanted to compensate him just the RFA tender in 2010? They may indeed choose to use that as his base salary, but if they want to front load with a roster bonus they could. My sense is they may have preferred to do a split signing/option bonus to make the cap hits more manageable down the line and the cash flow a little easier on the eve of a lockout. I wish Frank would just get it over with and tell us what the structure was and what was guaranteed. Is there a reason he won't??

Is there a reason that the team won't?

It seems the team attempted to give him a top 3 new money average ($7.1M) in exchange for retaining the RFA year. They tend to do that here, something each side can spin into a win. It's what they did with Seymour.

It seems to me that the team is trying to spin that they gave him a Top 3 offer when they did not. Not Top 3 in AAV. Not Top 3 in guaranteed money. Not top 3 in 1st 3 take.

The kicker is the guaranteed money and first 3. Would have to be $18M and/or $24M to make that top 3 case fly. Wilfork was guaranteed $20. Regardless of what Jhari Evans deal averages in mostly unguaranteed money, Mankins was never going to top Wilfork here in average or guarantees.

Thank you for helping me prove my point.

 

[Zeus]

Mankins is suffering from the same delusion as D. Revis. Namely, he is not an unrestricted free agent but wants to be paid like one. In Mankins case, as a restricted free agent, he was free to go to any team willing to pay the freight. There were no takers, because teams are unwilling to give up draft picks and then have to pay what Mankins wanted.

Mankins market value is established and is diminished by his contract status. That's a fact. Calling it unfair or being pissed off won't change anything. And saying the Patriots are screwing the player because they refuse to relinquish their rights under the CBA doesn't strike me a being all that realistic.

This is a business decision for both sides. In my opinion, Mankins' agent has not served his client well by adding fuel to the emotional fire.

 

[mgteich]

There are two truths in your post. This is indeed a business decision for both sided. And your opinion is that the agent has not done a good job for his client.
=====================================================
Your understanding of the RFA process might have been written by Goodell or the owrners. Mankins was NOT under contract. No team has paid the freight for a top RFA. No RFA switched teams in 2010. The list that moved at the top RFA price over the term of this CBA is very small indeed. The RFA is an agreed upon restriction of free agency. A player is owned by a team for his first four years; all a player can do is sit out. This year, as an exception, for the first and only time, a player with four years of experience was declated by the CBA to be an RFA. But this time, Mankins is unlikely to need to play to qualify for UFA status in 2011.

The patriots are not screwing a player because they won't "relinquish their rights". NO ONE has suggested waiving Mankins or withdrawing the tender. And IMHO, they are not screwing a player because they promised something in 2009 and now have decided to change its minds. Business is business. The patriots are not above such bait and switch tactics. And the patriots are not screwing the player because they flat out lie to the media with regard to the nature of the contract. Statistics and numbers have been manipulated for press presentation for decades.

The bottom line is that the patriots have acted like any other team would act. They did what they needed to do to pacify Mankins last year when he had a year left on his contract. Mankins bought the promise. He is now pi$$ed at himself as much as at the team. The patriots have now made a business decision with regard to how much Mankins is worth in terms of guaranteed monies, and whether the increase starts in 2010 or 2011. The team has decided to characterize this to the press as top 3 compensation. This nonsense simply undelines that fact that we shouldn't pay much attention to public posturing. ALMOST NO ONE here believes that the patriots would pay a guard the klnd of money the amount that would make Mankins the #3 paid guard in the league.

The bottom line is that the two parties will negotiate or they won't, and we haven't a clue.

Mankins is suffering from the same delusion as D. Revis. Namely, he is not an unrestricted free agent but wants to be paid like one. In Mankins case, as a restricted free agent, he was free to go to any team willing to pay the freight. There were no takers, because teams are unwilling to give up draft picks and then have to pay what Mankins wanted.

Mankins market value is established and is diminished by his contract status. That's a fact. Calling it unfair or being pissed off won't change anything. And saying the Patriots are screwing the player because they refuse to relinquish their rights under the CBA doesn't strike me a being all that realistic.

This is a business decision for both sides. In my opinion, Mankins' agent has not served his client well by adding fuel to the emotional fire.

 

[goheels22002]

That article is bs. The Colts spent to build a team around Manning and the Patriots didnt with Brady? Dillon, Moss, Welker. Where are the players the Colts went out and got?

Even if it was 20% lower that the highest paid G ever (which I doubt) so. If the team feels that is what he is worth, that is what they feel.

I completely agree with you. The Krafts do not over-pay anyone and are focused on paying well for depth at the middle and bottom of their salary chart. They pay competitively for their pro-bowl caliber guys but not the top dollar. The 49ers of the 1980s-90s, the Colts, Eagles, Steelers and NY Giants do so as well - that is why they're 10-years plus of being competitive and consistently in conference Championship games and Superbowls with down years usually due to key or many injuries. Head coaching and Coodinator changes haven't really hurt these teams. The Pats have been competitive since the mid-1990s.

Logan Mankins is getting terrible advice and will get the contract he wants with some douchebag franchise like Oakland or Washington that overspends on a few guys and then wind up sub-.500 because they have glaring weaknesses in positions manned by minimum contract guys or geezers. The Jets look like that right now with the changes they made this year.

The Colts are just the best at picking guys through the draft and then making those very tough but critical decisions about who to pay max contracts to within their plan and who to cut loose. Over the last five or six years they've cut loose a lot of very good players at the right time including some iconic guys like Edgerrin James and Marvin Harrison. If the Pats could draft as well......

Logan Mankins was one of those excellent draft choices who would have been better served to play out his contract or take a short deal and move on. Now he's just a greedy asswipe. Goodbye and good luck.

 

[ausbacker]

Is there a reason that the team won't?

It seems to me that the team is trying to spin that they gave him a Top 3 offer when they did not. Not Top 3 in AAV. Not Top 3 in guaranteed money. Not top 3 in 1st 3 take.

Thank you for helping me prove my point.

The problem I have with the comment in bold is that nobody from the Patriots has said that they promised Logan Mankins top three money nor that he is worthy or valued to the same contract size of Evans got. All that's been cited is a league source. This is where Deus Irae and I agree. Mankins is barking up the wrong tree and should be blaming the NFLPA more than anyone.

What we do know is that Mankins and his agent have been *****ing and moaning... publicly.

 

[Va_Pats_Fan]

So, if Mankins sticks to his guns, and does not report in time to get the qualified year, (assuming the pats don't trade him), is he still an RFA next year too? Do the pats have to offer him a tender again? How does that work..?

 

[goheels22002]

There are two truths in your post. This is indeed a business decision for both sided. And your opinion is that the agent has not done a good job for his client.
=====================================================
Your understanding of the RFA process might have been written by Goodell or the owrners. Mankins was NOT under contract. No team has paid the freight for a top RFA. No RFA switched teams in 2010. The list that moved at the top RFA price over the term of this CBA is very small indeed. The RFA is an agreed upon restriction of free agency. A player is owned by a team for his first four years; all a player can do is sit out. This year, as an exception, for the first and only time, a player with four years of experience was declated by the CBA to be an RFA. But this time, Mankins is unlikely to need to play to qualify for UFA status in 2011.

The patriots are not screwing a player because they won't "relinquish their rights". NO ONE has suggested waiving Mankins or withdrawing the tender. And IMHO, they are not screwing a player because they promised something in 2009 and now have decided to change its minds. Business is business. The patriots are not above such bait and switch tactics. And the patriots are not screwing the player because they flat out lie to the media with regard to the nature of the contract. Statistics and numbers have been manipulated for press presentation for decades.

The bottom line is that the patriots have acted like any other team would act. They did what they needed to do to pacify Mankins last year when he had a year left on his contract. Mankins bought the promise. He is now pi$$ed at himself as much as at the team. The patriots have now made a business decision with regard to how much Mankins is worth in terms of guaranteed monies, and whether the increase starts in 2010 or 2011. The team has decided to characterize this to the press as top 3 compensation. This nonsense simply undelines that fact that we shouldn't pay much attention to public posturing. ALMOST NO ONE here believes that the patriots would pay a guard the klnd of money the amount that would make Mankins the #3 paid guard in the league.

The bottom line is that the two parties will negotiate or they won't, and we haven't a clue.

You sound like a lawyer. It's not really a bait & swutch to make an offer to a player and have him reject and pull it off the table. Times change and Mankins' agent misread the effect of the impending CBA expiration. Many of the best long-term deals with generous guaranteed money were completed last year while these have dried up in 2010. Shaun Merriman's signing and all the 2010 1st rounders in camp are further signs that players have to get paid what they can because the future is so uncertain.

It would be nice to know what dialogue there's been since May between the Krafts and Mankins' advisors. Mankins stood to make an average of nearly $7 million over a 4-year period 2010 - 2013 if the description is correct and he played out the deal. If I were Logan, I'd say where do I sign?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Is there a reason that the team won't?

Yeah, and you know what that is...they don't negotiate through the media and they encourage their players not to either.



It seems to me that the team is trying to spin that they gave him a Top 3 offer when they did not. Not Top 3 in AAV. Not Top 3 in guaranteed money. Not top 3 in 1st 3 take.

We don't know where it lies in guaranteed money or first three take yet because Frank hasn't told us those details for some reason...



Thank you for helping me prove my point.

Was your point that they were never going to pay a guard more than a pro bowl NT here?? Then your welcome.

I know you did your projected deal for Mankins a while back. You based it on your view that he was a better guard than Evans ( and everyone else in the 2009 top 10) even though Evans was 2 years younger. Like I said at the time, it's folly to mix objective and subjective analysis as a fan. Most pundits and scouts don't seem to think that Mankins is superior to Evans. Perhaps the Patriots share that view. As was the case with Asante. Some scouts and pundits believe there are a couple of young guards who are more valuable than Mankins. Top 3 isn't a bad place to be slotted unless you are exponentially better than everyone else. The difference after taxes between $8.1M and $7.1M is about half a million a year. I've never understood the cut my nose off to spite my face approach to finances. The I'd rather have nothing than take a nickle less than my agent and I think I'm worth approach. Let alone on the eve of a potential work stoppage when every player is intent on getting as much guaranteed money locked in as possible. That's what Wilfork did. And that they gave the NT with the bad DNA $18M up front would lead me to believe they weren't screwing around with half assed rolling guarantees in Mankins case. If that were the case I'm sure Frank would have let that slip as well...

As for Brees, I thought he was more challenged than he is... I recalled seeing several articles that explained Evans increased value but I didn't remember entirely why. I knew it had to do with clearing his passing lanes by pushing the rush to the outside. Pressure up the middle is what neutralizes Brees. Maybe that's why he struggled the other night. His interior OL is therefore more important in the overall scheme of that offense than the tackles. Evans has proven to be an excellent fit for their scheme as a result. Pressure up the middle has been an issue here since February 2008... Mankins and the interior OL here haven't had much luck consistently countering it.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

It's almost comical. He could get on his knees and start crying and it wouldn't get a reaction.

I wonder if this agent is a rube. I put his name and company name up and can't even find a web site. He seems to have clients, but i wonder if he just gave them a good sell job.

Not a rube according to some of these posts...

Agent Search
active contracts negotiated- 25

Bears Jarron Gilbert selection #68 2009
Chargers Ryan Mathews selection #12 2010


http://www.packerforum.com/packer-fan-forum/9999-draft-pick-signing-agent-information.html
From a 2007 Packer forum posting……
>>>>Represents coach Lovie Smith(not a smooth negotiation), The late Pat Tillman, Kelly Holcomb, Titans DE Anthony Dunn and rookie Ikaika Alama-Francis(Detroit 2nd round pick and son of former back up to Bart Starr)
The NFL Players Association and Sports Illustrated ranked Bauer fifth in their published list of the NFL’s Top 10 agents.
At one time represented 47 NFL players and 3 head coaches. This agent has not had any troublesome negotiations that I can find except for Smith.<<<<<
(Like I said it was from 2007)

 

[Zeus]

There are two truths in your post. This is indeed a business decision for both sided. And your opinion is that the agent has not done a good job for his client.
=====================================================
Your understanding of the RFA process might have been written by Goodell or the owrners. Mankins was NOT under contract. No team has paid the freight for a top RFA. No RFA switched teams in 2010. The list that moved at the top RFA price over the term of this CBA is very small indeed. The RFA is an agreed upon restriction of free agency. A player is owned by a team for his first four years; all a player can do is sit out. This year, as an exception, for the first and only time, a player with four years of experience was declated by the CBA to be an RFA. But this time, Mankins is unlikely to need to play to qualify for UFA status in 2011.

The patriots are not screwing a player because they won't "relinquish their rights". NO ONE has suggested waiving Mankins or withdrawing the tender. And IMHO, they are not screwing a player because they promised something in 2009 and now have decided to change its minds. Business is business. The patriots are not above such bait and switch tactics. And the patriots are not screwing the player because they flat out lie to the media with regard to the nature of the contract. Statistics and numbers have been manipulated for press presentation for decades.

The bottom line is that the patriots have acted like any other team would act. They did what they needed to do to pacify Mankins last year when he had a year left on his contract. Mankins bought the promise. He is now pi$$ed at himself as much as at the team. The patriots have now made a business decision with regard to how much Mankins is worth in terms of guaranteed monies, and whether the increase starts in 2010 or 2011. The team has decided to characterize this to the press as top 3 compensation. This nonsense simply undelines that fact that we shouldn't pay much attention to public posturing. ALMOST NO ONE here believes that the patriots would pay a guard the klnd of money the amount that would make Mankins the #3 paid guard in the league.

The bottom line is that the two parties will negotiate or they won't, and we haven't a clue.

My point is that Mankins is not an unresticted free agent and therefore shouldn't expect to be paid as one. He can stamp his feet all he likes and it won't change a thing. I'm not trying to parrot the owner's position. What I am trying to do is be realistic about the implications of the existing rules. And make no mistake, those are the rules for now whether you or Logan Mankins or anybody else likes them or not.

My opinion about the agent is that he has added to his client's insecurities and sense of entitlement. In so doing, he has created an emotionally charged atmosphere that is not conducive to getting a deal done.

If NE is willing to move on without Mankins, then he has no leverage whatsoever. He and his agent are goiong to have to assess the team's willingness to do just that. Sometimes, a business decision is about settling for 80-85% of what you wanted because that was the best deal to be had.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Long thread. If Mankin decides to sit out this year could he potentially be franchised next year as well?

 

[Miguel]

Yeah, and you know what that is...they don't negotiate through the media and they encourage their players not to either.

When a team leaks details of their offers to Breer, they, IMO, are negotiating through the media.

 

[Deus Irae]

Long thread. If Mankin decides to sit out this year could he potentially be franchised next year as well?

Under "current" rules, the franchise number would include tackle salaries.

 

[reflexblue]

It's almost comical. He could get on his knees and start crying and it wouldn't get a reaction.

I wonder if this agent is a rube. I put his name and company name up and can't even find a web site. He seems to have clients, but i wonder if he just gave them a good sell job.

Bauer has at least Two other clients besides Mankins and they're holding out too. I think the only three players holding out are Bauer clients.