Patriots claim TE Jake Ballard

[Ring 6]

Thank you for allowing me to have an opinion. I read your position and have duly noted the key points in bold.

1. You made a statement about Aaron Hernandez, speed, the TE position and the WR position.
2. You made a comment that as a receiver, Hernandez would be considered slow and that would negate his talent. Receiver 40 times were pointed out to you as a basis for comparison given positions played.
3. The discussion turned to Hernandez losing match up advantages on LB's and Safeties as a TE if he was played as a WR negating his speed advantage ignoring his size advantage against CB's.
4. You moved your discussion from Hernandez's speed to incorporate a wider definition of football speed opposed to 40 times.
5. Your hypocrisy was pointed out given your flawed starting position and you've gone into self preservation mode.

Have I missed anything?

All of this, once again Andy could have been avoided if you simply said, guys, you're right, I misspoke, this is exactly what I meant.

Either way, this has derailed enough from Ballard. I'll keep my commentary toward the Patriots acquisition moving forward and you're free to have the last word in regards to Aaron Hernandez.

Your argument hinges on by speed I meant 40 times.
If it is that important to you to believe you know what was in my mind when I typed better than I did, I'm not quite sure what to tell you.
This is the same thing you have always done. You try to argue that your opinion of what someone means by their comments is more valid than the person who made them.
I have no interest in sinking to that level. I have explained my position. Go ahead and continue to explain to me how I don't understand what I meant.
I doin't really care.

 

[The Scrizz]

The transcript of Coughlin's remarks really didn't capture just how pissed he was - I can't remember seeing him that upset in a long time. He may be a bit upset at BB, but not nearly as much as he is upset at himself and the Giants for taking such a dumb risk in the first place.

I watched it and he isn't pissed at BB or at himself. That leaves Reese I believe. Dude can get red-faced better than anyone I've ever seen. I would love to play poker with him. BB not so much.

 

[mcsully]

I'm pretty sure that the only source for those articles is the renowned ass clown Brad Childress who I believe is currently unemployed. (Maybe there is an IT department looking for a decent intern).

Why would the Pats only call the Vikings and ask that when 30 other teams could have taken him? It makes very little sense. And regardless, Mills was a nothing that they were trying to get to the PS. Dozens of those guys get snatched up every year at cut-down time.

The hilarity is that the Giants felt that they just had to have that 90th player and figured nobody would pay a guy half a million to rehab this year. And here I thought Kraft was cheap.

Brad Childress is the OC for Cleveland

took me all of two seconds to confirm what i stated earlier

It Is What It Is » Brad Childress is no fan of Bill Belichick and the Patriots


Childress’ latest statements are the latest in a series of verbal lobs he has directed at the Patriots over the last three years. It began in the days before the start of the 2007 season, when Childress claimed Belichick called to ask him not to claim tight end Garrett Mills, so New England could get him through to the practice squad. Childress even claimed that Belichick offered to avoid picking up a player the Vikings cut as a reward. Childress declined — the Patriots responded by claiming linebacker David Herron. Neither player had any sort of long-term impact with their new club, but it was enough to stir some bad blood.


nothing new here

 

[ausbacker]

Brad Childress is the OC for Cleveland

took me all of two seconds to confirm what i stated earlier

It Is What It Is » Brad Childress is no fan of Bill Belichick and the Patriots


Childress’ latest statements are the latest in a series of verbal lobs he has directed at the Patriots over the last three years. It began in the days before the start of the 2007 season, when Childress claimed Belichick called to ask him not to claim tight end Garrett Mills, so New England could get him through to the practice squad. Childress even claimed that Belichick offered to avoid picking up a player the Vikings cut as a reward. Childress declined — the Patriots responded by claiming linebacker David Herron. Neither player had any sort of long-term impact with their new club, but it was enough to stir some bad blood.


nothing new here

For some reason I picture Brad Childress as Andy Reid's parasitic twin.

 

[DaBruinz]

Really he does block quite a bit.
The point is that he is now a mismatch because he is too quick for LBs or Safeties. If you make him a WR covered by a corner he loses that advantage.

Not true. Sorry Andy. Hernandez runs a sub 4.6. Corners playing man coverage are going to have to play off him and, then, that gives him the advantage because he can grab a short route and has the ability to stretch it for another 10-20 yards or more. If they try and play press coverage on him, they are going to get plowed over because he's got 50 lbs. on most corners.

 

[DaBruinz]

My point had nothing to do with 40 times, and I stand by it.

Your point was BS and you got called on it.. Fact is that teams have tried and failed to cover Hernandez with a CB..

 

[Ring 6]

Not true. Sorry Andy. Hernandez runs a sub 4.6. Corners playing man coverage are going to have to play off him and, then, that gives him the advantage because he can grab a short route and has the ability to stretch it for another 10-20 yards or more. If they try and play press coverage on him, they are going to get plowed over because he's got 50 lbs. on most corners.

Once again, speed and WR skills are not solely measured by 40 times.
You are correct that he would do better than most vs press coverage, but he is not a speed threat to a corner.
I know many fans here fall in love with a player and want to think he is flawless at everything, but Hernandez is not a WR. He is a small TE, who's speed, agility and quickness are an advantage vs LBs and S and a drawback against corners.
Its really as simple as that.

 

[Ring 6]

Your point was BS and you got called on it.. Fact is that teams have tried and failed to cover Hernandez with a CB..

What teams tried and failed to cover Hernandez with a corner?

 

[Deus Irae]

3 types of "speed" seem to be generally involved in these sorts of discussions:

Timed speed
Game speed
Quicks (speed on cuts, turns, etc...)

This sub-thread might be a bit clearer if the type of speed being talked about was made a bit clearer. The back-and-forth seems to be a group arguing the first vs. one person arguing the second, the third, or both.

 

[Wolfpack]

FWIW, Giants fans are of 2 minds on this matter. Some are convinced that Belichick did this for no other reason than out of spite, but some are grudgeingly admitting that their front office screwed up and Belichick made a smart move.

 

[Richard Camembert]

I'm wrapping up this thread.

1) I think it should be, Fell Balls Gronkandez. Although, that is a trifle long. Although, that's what she said.

2) The Pats outplayed the Giants off the field in signing Ballard. Hopefully Patchick's theory is wrong and Ballard can come back. I can't imagine any administrative outcomes other than him getting PUP'd or cut outright due to his knee being irretrievably damaged. He may fill the block first/catch second slot intended for Yeatman and Smith, or ay exceed these expectations.

3) Hernandez is able to transcend positional jargon and can be used in a variety of roles; he's fast, quick, and large and has been seen lined up at WR,TE and even in the backfield. Clearly BB thinks he can play WR.

4) Some of you guys need to get a room.

 

[Triumph]

I think even you can understand that Wr skills, and 'speed' are defined much more widely than how fast you ran a 40 once.

The Pats do not put "slow WRs" in the backfield running the football. Get a clue.

Meanwhile, somebody needs to tell Welker and Lloyd that theyre too slow to play WR in the NFL.

 

[Ring 6]

The Pats do not put "slow WRs" in the backfield running the football. Get a clue.

Meanwhile, somebody needs to tell Welker and Lloyd that theyre too slow to play WR in the NFL.

No they put fast TEs there

Are you really sticking to the belief that the speed required to be an effective WR is 100% defined by what your time in a 40 was before your rookie season?
That is rather naive.

 

[Ring 6]

I
3) Hernandez is able to transcend positional jargon and can be used in a variety of roles; he's fast, quick, and large and has been seen lined up at WR,TE and even in the backfield. Clearly BB thinks he can play WR.

.

Lets clarify this one.
Yes Hernandez has a unique skill set. Transcending positional distinction is quite a stretch though.
He is a TE, or you can call him an HBack if you like. He is small and a poor blocker as a TE but a mismatch in the passing game.
As a WR he is big, and while his speed, agility, mobility, quickness, etc creates a mismatch vs LBs and S it is pedestrian compared to WRs.
He really hasn't played WR. He has split out into a WR position when the defense on the field has a LB or S one on one on him to accentuate the mismatch.
He has not lined up at WR being covered by a corner on anything resembling a consistent basis, if at all.
I don't know why we feel BB thinks he can play WR, because he has done nothing to indicate that.
A correct statement is that BB prefers 2 WRs and 2 TEs including Hernandez to 3 WRs and 1 TE. Running a 2 TE offense instead of a 3 WR offense doesn't mean the TE is a Wr.

 

[Nehalem]

No they put fast TEs there

Are you really sticking to the belief that the speed required to be an effective WR is 100% defined by what your time in a 40 was before your rookie season?
That is rather naive.

The discussion should end with the fact the fact that he is slightly faster than Brandon Llyod who averaged 18.8yds/catch with Kyle Orton throwing him the ball.

In addition Hernandez has an inch and almost 60lbs on Llyod.

If covering Hernandez was as easy as putting a CB on him wouldnt team be doing it?

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Any change BB trades him for a 2nd or 3rd............ back to the Giants

 

[Frezo]

If speed was the only measurable in this discussion, then Welker and Lloyd could play TE. The times I recall Hernandez lining up as a wide out, Brady motioned him in.

 

[Ring 6]

The discussion should end with the fact the fact that he is slightly faster than Brandon Llyod who averaged 18.8yds/catch with Kyle Orton throwing him the ball.

In addition Hernandez has an inch and almost 60lbs on Llyod.

If covering Hernandez was as easy as putting a CB on him wouldnt team be doing it?

As I said, if we want to be naive and pretend that the WR skillset can be summed up by what a guys 40 time was before his rookie season, its not much of an analysis.

By the way if you are going to make Lloyd the sum total of your analysis, do you include that he struggled to only 51 catches in 3 years from 06-08, and before the one season you mention happened he was on his 4th team in 7 years catching a total of 164 passes?
Also, if you really think Hernandez is 'slightly faster' than Lloyd I'd ask how many times a football player runs 40 yards straight with no one hitting them, and what percentage of the job of a WR that adds up to.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Do these petty personal battles over semantics need to go on page after page after page?

My take in watching games is that Hernandez is very fast for a tight end. While not slow by any means, I think he would have rather unexceptional speed for a WR. Lots of wide receivers with unexceptional speed can excel, though, including even many of the all-time greats.

His size, hands, balance, and body positioning are great assets when running slot WR routes, and he does do that on a fairly consistent basis.

I actually view many of his skills as similar to a near-HOF wide receiver Hines Ward, a guy who is very physical toward the ball and built more solidly than most WRs, though he would give up at least 35 lbs. and 2 inches to Aaron. But Ward even as a wide receiver blocks better than Aaron does right now. Hopefully that improves, because it is more a technique issue than anything, it seems to me.

 

[jmt57]

The discussion should end with the fact the fact that he is slightly faster than Brandon Llyod who averaged 18.8yds/catch with Kyle Orton throwing him the ball.

In addition Hernandez has an inch and almost 60lbs on Llyod.

If covering Hernandez was as easy as putting a CB on him wouldnt team be doing it?

:welcome:

:eat3: