Patriots at Raiders post-game thread

[shmessy]

Whether it was McFadden or not, an 8-13 third down conversion is not a good percentage. McFadden ran for 5.4 yards per carry so it's not like we shut him down.

The Raiders employed the "lets beat the Pats by passing" strategy, which isn't really a bad idea considering how awful our pass defense is. Campbell's INT to Chung int he end zone was a gift. I don't know how else you can look at that. And the other INT was a great play by Wilfork. But otherwise, our defense needs a lot of work. If you don't think so, then I we'll agree to disagree.

Outside of ONE run, he was 13 for 34 (2.6 avg). THAT was the game. Too bad you don't realize it.

Unlike you, BB knew that if the Raiders employed the "let's beat the Pats by passing" strategy, it would backfire on them in the long run - - which it did. He allows the weak link of an offense to operate without maximum pressure. That's what he does - - if you don't understand that, you don't understand Bill Belichick.

As you wrote "Campbell's INT to Chung in the end zone was a gift." BB expected that to happen to Campbell at some point and turn the game. You didn't.

If the Pats didn't stop McFadden in this game, they would have flown home 2-2. THAT is the crux of the matter. THAT is what separated the Jets last week to the Pats this week against the same opponent in the same stadium.

Could we have better players? Sure! I'm still miffed at BB for jettisoning Merriwether and Sanders for exactly ZILCH in return - - the safety position is a true weakness on this team.

However, this defense performed it's task beautifully yesterday. It wasn't a stats driven task that you might appreciate.

It was an Ali Rope-A-Dope-Then Pouncing type of strategy that most fans like you, D-Money and Patsfan1982 can't grasp.

 

[Rob0729]

Whether it was McFadden or not, an 8-13 third down conversion is not a good percentage. McFadden ran for 5.4 yards per carry so it's not like we shut him down.

The Raiders employed the "lets beat the Pats by passing" strategy, which isn't really a bad idea considering how awful our pass defense is. Campbell's INT to Chung int he end zone was a gift. I don't know how else you can look at that. And the other INT was a great play by Wilfork. But otherwise, our defense needs a lot of work. If you don't think so, then I we'll agree to disagree.

McFadden rushed 14 times for 75 yards with one run for 41 yards. You take that one run away and he rushed 13 times for 34 yards or 2.6 YPC. Yes, the Patriots shut down McFadden.

The Raiders employed the "Let's beat the Pats by passing" strategy and only got 245 passing yards and 0 TDs until garbage time to show for it.

 

[SEA_Pat]

Hey joker,obviously u missed the pass where he tried to fit it into gronk in the endzone.The bottom line is that this offense is predictable.U know it will go to Welker or one of the TEs.

The only thing that is predictable about this offense is that it will score over 30 points a game. It's all about scheme. They chose to take away Gronk and Branch, leaving WWW one-on-one and Brady took advantage of it.

As noted by many others, all you and many of the other negative Nancys on the board can see is the bad. To call our D the worst in the league and our offense predictable just shows how spoiled we've been and how lacking in perspective some fans are. Any time the other team gets a TD drive, the wailing and gnashing of teeth by yourself and the others is beyond absurd. Guess what, they're not the 85 Bears, but even the 86 Bears weren't either. That was a different era.

By the way, we're 3-1, in case you haven't noticed. The score is what counts in football.

 

[condon84]

I didn't say that. I saw improvement from the defense. The Raiders scored 69 points vs. the Bills and Jets and the Pats held them to 19 (really 13 plus a garbage time TD). That is improvement even with some key players missing. The defense isn't going to turn into the 200 Ravens overnight.

You want progressive improvement every week. We saw improvement yesterday. Hopefully Dowling, Bodden, and Haynesworth will be back and we will see more improvement next week.

Yesterday wasn't as bad as you make it out to be. The Raiders got 100 yards in garbage time and their offense scored scored 13 points before garbage time after averaging 34.5 points the previous two games.

Our offense did our defense a favor yesterday by not going on a fast-tempo no-huddle offense and instead ran the ball and shortened the game. The Raiders got 3 less possessions (9 total) than the Bills (12 total) got last week. The Raiders average net gain per play was 7.6 compared to the Bills which gained 7.5 per play.The Bills offense scored 27 points in 12 drives which averages at 2.25 points per drive. The Raiders offense scored 19 points in 9 drives which averages 2.11 points per drive. A little less but still on the same track.

Even without the stats and facts I just listed, just watching our defense play was frustrating. We can't get off on third downs and offer little resistence. Yes, Campbell made mistakes, but they were mistakes not caused by any type of pressure but just dumb mistakes.

Point is, had our offense gone to an up-tempo game and given the opposing offense more possessions, our defense was on track to have just as bad a game as the previous games.

 

[condon84]

Outside of ONE run, he was 13 for 34 (2.6 avg). THAT was the game. Too bad you don't realize it.

Unlike you, BB knew that if the Raiders employed the "let's beat the Pats by passing" strategy, it would backfire on them in the long run - - which it did. He allows the weak link of an offense to operate without maximum pressure. That's what he does - - if you don't understand that, you don't understand Bill Belichick.

As you wrote "Campbell's INT to Chung in the end zone was a gift." BB expected that to happen to Campbell at some point and turn the game. You didn't.

If the Pats didn't stop McFadden in this game, they would have flown home 2-2. THAT is the crux of the matter. THAT is what separated the Jets last week to the Pats this week against the same opponent in the same stadium.

Could we have better players? Sure! I'm still miffed at BB for jettisoning Merriwether and Sanders for exactly ZILCH in return - - the safety position is a true weakness on this team.

However, this defense performed it's task beautifully yesterday. It wasn't a stats driven task that you might appreciate.

It was an Ali Rope-A-Dope-Then Pouncing type of strategy that most fans like you, D-Money and Patsfan1982 can't grasp.

I hope you are joking with that bolded comment. BB strikes me as a person that doesn't leave things to chance.

 

[Rob0729]

Our offense did our defense a favor yesterday by not going on a fast-tempo no-huddle offense and instead ran the ball and shortened the game. The Raiders got 3 less possessions (9 total) than the Bills (12 total) got last week. The Raiders average net gain per play was 7.6 compared to the Bills which gained 7.5 per play.The Bills offense scored 27 points in 12 drives which averages at 2.25 points per drive. The Raiders offense scored 19 points in 9 drives which averages 2.11 points per drive. A little less but still on the same track.

Even without the stats and facts I just listed, just watching our defense play was frustrating. We can't get off on third downs and offer little resistence. Yes, Campbell made mistakes, but they were mistakes not caused by any type of pressure but just dumb mistakes.

Point is, had our offense gone to an up-tempo game and given the opposing offense more possessions, our defense was on track to have just as bad a game as the previous games.

The Pats totally shut down the best RB in the game this year except for one play. They held an offense that averaged 34.5 points over the last two games to 13 points until garbage time.

BTW, one of the four scoring drives by the Raiders was totally inconsequential garbage time which is totally irrelevant to the conversations because the Pats played a soft zone and didn't care if the Raiders scored as long as they took most of the final three minutes to do it.

 

[RIpats88]

we held a team that has scored 30+ points the last 3 weeks to 13points(before garbage time)....and held the leading rusher in the league to 75yards(green ellis and ridley had more)

while the defense isnt perfect, and it was frustrating to see them give up so many 3rd downs....I think you can say it was a successful day.

and those saying that our offense is one dimensional...how so? today we focused more on the run and still scored 31points...some teams have trouble defending the pass...so we use that against them..the raiders couldnt stop the run. so we ground and pounded.

 

[shmessy]

I hope you are joking with that bolded comment. BB strikes me as a person that doesn't leave things to chance.

The fact that you read my post and don't understand what BB's strategy was in that game (and no, it wasn't to please some fantasy football stat person) shows only willful blindness on your part.

The strategy was to shutdown the strength, leave the weak link to have the ball most of the time and expect the weak link to show why it is the weak link.

Simple as that, yet you keep running to your stats.

Maybe someday it will dawn on you that there actually is a football game being played on the field and not on a computer monitor.

 

[RIpats88]

heres the snap counts for the game:

TE Rob Gronkowski -- 66 of 66
WR Deion Branch -- 58 of 66
WR Wes Welker -- 58 of 66
RB BenJarvus Green-Ellis -- 39 of 66
TE Thomas Welch -- 24 of 66
WR Matthew Slater -- 21 of 66
RB Stevan Ridley -- 19 of 66
WR Chad Ochocinco -- 18 of 66
WR Julian Edelman -- 17 of 66
RB Danny Woodhead -- 6 of 66
FB Dane Fletcher -- 4 of 66


as much as I love Deion branch...58 snaps and only one catch? it seems that teams have figured out how to shut him down after his big first 2 games...looks like teams are figuring out Gronk on the seam route as well

On the other hand, only 19snaps for Ocho...BUT on those 19 snaps, he was 3-3(even though the penalty got rid of the 3rd)...the only other player with multiple catches yesterday....he can get open.....Id like to see him get more snaps next week...he was able to do more than Edelman/Slater...and id like to see Taylor price play. he looked promising in the pre-season

 

[Metaphors]

I think we need a little perspective on just how decimated the Pats defense was yesterday. Apply the same injuries to the Jets and you have:
- DeVito, Ellis, Dixon, Cromartie and Wilson not dressing for the game
- Harris getting knocked out of the game in the 1st half
- Eric Smith playing with a broken hand

As for the game itself, I think people continually ignore game context when evaluating performances. They think every drive needs to be a 3-n-out. Need all-out blitzes on every 3rd down. That is what the Jets did last week against the Raiders and they got whomped as a result.

The Pats struggled to get off the field in the 1st half and lost Mayo half way through the second quarter. After getting the lucky Chung pick on that drive, the Pats found themselves up 7 at halftime. When the Pats went up 14 on the 1st drive of the 2nd half, the context of the game completely changes. Trust that the offense won't turn the ball over and trust the defense to make Campbell work hard and burn time to get yards.

The next Oakland drive resulted in a FG but took 15 plays and almost 8 minutes. When you are losing or tied, that is a terrible result. When you are up 2 TDs with 26 minutes to play, that is good stuff.

After the Pats extend the lead to 18 (burning almost 5 more minutes off the clock), here are the next 3 Raider drives:
- Incomplete on 3rd and 12 (Chung questionable roughness before Vince pick)
- Incomplete on 3rd and 3
- Incomplete on 3rd and 3 and 4th and 3

The Pats' minds were on the bus for the last drive, but I'll give them a pass playing their 3rd road game in 4 weeks. Otherwise, their 2nd half defense was nearly perfect in the context of the game (score and how the offense was playing).

Want to see the alternative? The Jets were up by 10 last week with 5 minutes left in the 1st half. 2nd and 1 and they run blitz 7 between the tackles. McFadden bounces outside and goes 70 yards nearly untouched. Game tied in the 2nd half and the Jets get caught on overload blitzes on back to back trick plays (run on a held option pass and a WR end around). Two plays, 50 yards, 7 point deficit and a long plane ride home.

The Raiders went 0-8 on 3rd down against the Jets and still won scoring 34 points. That is because the Jets didn't have the patience or discipline to get the Raiders into key 3rd downs in the 2nd half. They played to win every battle and ended up losing the war. No surprise given their coach called a timeout AFTER an official review to yell at the ref.

"I strenuously object?" Is that how it works? Hm? "Objection." "Overruled." "Oh, no, no, no. No, I STRENUOUSLY object." "Oh. Well, if you strenuously object then I should take some time to reconsider."

The Pats defense needs to get healthy and find their mojo even when all their players are available. The one area that is especially troubling to me is the lack of hitting in the secondary. Receivers are going up for deep passes without any fear. That is unacceptable. If you can't knock the ball away from the receiver, separate the receiver from the ball. Sergio particularly needs to do this or his career will be measured in weeks, not years.

 

[condon84]

The fact that you read my post and don't understand what BB's strategy was in that game (and no, it wasn't to please some fantasy football stat person) shows only willful blindness on your part.

The strategy was to shutdown the strength, leave the weak link to have the ball most of the time and expect the weak link to show why it is the weak link.

Simple as that, yet you keep running to your stats.

Maybe someday it will dawn on you that there actually is a football game being played on the field and not on a computer monitor.

So you accuse me of willful blindess and also tout our defense beautifully performing it's task.

 

[RIpats88]

the pats defense Was successful in shutting down Mcfadden.....the leading rusher in the league and both BJGE and Ridley had more yards than him this game

take away the one 40yard run and he only runs for 35yards on the rest of his carries...he was their strength on offense...and they instead had to rely on the passing game which lead to interceptions.

despite how frustrating it was to watch the pats defense come up short on 3rd and long situations...we held a team that scored 30+ points to 13 when it mattered. at the end of the day, its the final score that counts.

 

[shmessy]

So you accuse me of willful blindess and also tout our defense beautifully performing it's task.

Yes, they carried out Belichick's strategy extremely well. Take away the priority strength and let Campbell try to win the game with the weakest part of their offense.

You are completely and utterly blind to how Belichick strategizes his defensive gameplan.

This defense doesn't have the horses the Jets have. However, they had a much better gameplan and they played within themselves to completely outperform the Jets against the SAME team in the SAME stadium.

Obviously, you would take the 2007 Patriots offense over each and every one of the Patriots SB Champion offenses......but that's because you're a video game player.

Enjoy your fantasy league.

 

[MoVaughn4Prez]

I hate that Matthew Slater plays 21 snaps and yet Taylor Price who was active could not even find his way on the field for 1.

 

[condon84]

Yes, they carried out Belichick's strategy extremely well. Take away the priority strength and let Campbell try to win the game with the weakest part of their offense.

You are completely and utterly blind to how Belichick strategizes his defensive gameplan.

This defense doesn't have the horses the Jets have. However, they had a much better gameplan and they played within themselves to completely outperform the Jets against the SAME team in the SAME stadium.

Obviously, you would take the 2007 Patriots offense over each and every one of the Patriots SB Champion offenses......but that's because you're a video game player.

Enjoy your fantasy league.

You talk like you were in the defensive meetings with Belichick. You know NOTHING about the gameplan. The fact that you think you know is hilarious. I'm judging the game based on what I saw. And what we saw was a defensive team that gave up a lot of yards, 8/13 third down conversions, and got a little help from some poor QB decisions by Campbell. That is as truthful as an analysis could be regarding what happened yesterday.

You on the other hand hand are in la la land spinning whatever you saw yesterday as a "beautifully performed" task.

Your accusations about me taking the 07 year over our SB years proves that you're an idiot.

 

[shmessy]

You talk like you were in the defensive meetings with Belichick. You know NOTHING about the gameplan. The fact that you think you know is hilarious. I'm judging the game based on what I saw. And what we saw was a defensive team that gave up a lot of yards, 8/13 third down conversions, and got a little help from some poor QB decisions by Campbell. That is as truthful as an analysis could be regarding what happened yesterday.

You on the other hand hand are in la la land spinning whatever you saw yesterday as a "beautifully performed" task.

Your accusations about me taking the 07 year over our SB years proves that you're an idiot.

You keep repeating your stats, Gameboy.

While you're at it, why don't you polish your Dan Fouts doll?

Some of us here, actually watched the 2001 NFL season and saw the 2003 and 2004 bend but don't break defenses. Some of us joined this site BEFORE you got excited about 50 TD's in a year by Brady.

It's called football.

Ever wonder WHY McFadden only had 14 carries????? Ever wonder WHY Antonio Gates didn't have one catch a couple of weeks ago??????

Of course, you don't think about those things. You can't quantify those kind of things on your little spreadsheet.

It's called strategy. It's why Ali beat Foreman in Zaire. It's why the Patriots beat the Greatest Show on Turf in SB 36. It's why Belichick's defensive gameplan against the Unstoppa-Bills from the 1990 Super Bowl is enshrined in Canton.

Look it up on your computer between your visits to Stratomatic Baseball sites.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I hate that Matthew Slater plays 21 snaps and yet Taylor Price who was active could not even find his way on the field for 1.

The solution is get a job as an NFL HC and you can play whomever you want!

 

[Rob0729]

Here's what an unbiased source said about Campbell's production. From Rotoworld:

Jason Campbell completed 25-of-39 passes for 344 yards, one touchdown, and two interceptions against the Patriots in Week 4.

The Patriots defense played better than those numbers suggest, as Campbell's production spiked in garbage time. His second-quarter end-zone interception with no receiver within five yards was a back breaker from which the Raiders never recovered. With emerging weapons at receiver, Campbell is on pace for 3,712 yards, 16 TDs, and 12 interceptions heading into Week 5 against a pressuring Texans defense.

Jason Campbell - Oakland Raiders - 2011 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com

 

[Garbanza]

same script different game. today however, our defense turned the ball over. basically same game as last week except we didnt get unlucky breaks.

this is a team that has to get better on defense. if nothing else, id like it if we were able to stop the run like years past. for whatever reason our run defense has disppeared.

Honestly, I don't think the run defense was a problem. Save for a couple of big plays, it's was....okay. Not great, but okay.

The pass defense is beyond hideous. The safeties are brutal. Chung is okay - and he's playing with one arm. The rest of 'em? Garbage.

The LB's kill me. Can't cover, can't read.....serious concern when your only good linebacker is out for at least a month.

Corners - for the love of whatever is holy - tackle, look for the ball....show me something!

 

[shmessy]

Honestly, I don't think the run defense was a problem. Save for a couple of big plays, it's was....okay. Not great, but okay.

The pass defense is beyond hideous. The safeties are brutal. Chung is okay - and he's playing with one arm. The rest of 'em? Garbage.

The LB's kill me. Can't cover, can't read.....serious concern when your only good linebacker is out for at least a month.

Corners - for the love of whatever is holy - tackle, look for the ball....show me something!

No doubt, BB screwed up royally by letting Merriwether and Sanders go for nothing. Big hole there.

Way worse than trading Seymour for Solder.