Pasquarelli on Vinatieri

[hwc]

For what he did here, a standing ovation is what is needed when he returns to Gillette. JUST that first time..and then the boos can eain down on him. You are right, he really can't say anything all that different, given his new team. I understand what he has done for the Patriots, but I also see how and what he did in leaving.
A standing ovation is needed, but just for that one last time.

You want the Pats fans to stand and cheer for a member of the other team? Are you out of your frickin' mind?

What's next? A standing ovation for Peyton Manning, too? Sheesh.

If what's his name, the kicker, wanted to be cheered in Foxboro, he should have signed a new deal with the team that plays in Foxboro. Screw the bum.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You want the Pats fans to stand and cheer for a member of the other team? Are you out of your frickin' mind?

What's next? A standing ovation for Peyton Manning, too? Sheesh.

If what's his name, the kicker, wanted to be cheered in Foxboro, he should have signed a new deal with the team that plays in Foxboro. Screw the bum.

Manning never won us a Superbowl with seconds remaining, let alone 2.

And I thnk he would have signed a new deal with the team that plays in Foxboro had they been the first to offer him one with the fairly standard signing bonus.

 

[PF1996]

Didn't Adam want to retire in a dome?

There is this constant talk about what the Patriots offered Vinateri which I find odd since I thought the Patriots kept contract negotiations under wrap. So, can someone please outline exactly WHAT the contract offer to Vinateri from the Patriots was and where they got that information? If the deal offered to Vinateri was one that no person with "half a brain" would accept, then one can only conclude that the Patriots DIDN'T want to keep Vinateri. That's doesn't really fit with the fact that the Patriots never attempted to go after other kickers until after Vinetari signed. So either the Patriots didn't want to keep Vinateri OR they did offer him a fair deal.

I'm not into conspiracy theories but I find it odd that no one has commented on the fact that a team WITHOUT a kicker, who is led by an arrogant, grudgeful GM, who is willing to throw cash around WOULD NOT have made ANY inquries to the free agent kicker of a chief rival. I also find it odd that people appear to believe that a kicker who has often spoken of finishing his career in a dome WOULD NOT have made inquiries to a team with an opening for a kicker, which played in a dome, and which is a perennial superbowl competitor. Vinetari wanted to leave from the start, he wanted to go to the Colts from the start, and this nonsense meandering for two weeks and visiting Green Bay (a team with probably a worse environment for kicking than N.E.) was only done to make it appear like he was forced to take the Colts offer and also to screw N.E. by limiting their options to replace him. Did Vinetari even visit with Dallas?

I don't understand the idea being expressed by some that the Patriots are to blaime for Vinateri leaving because they COULD have paid him as much as the Colts did. There are certain players the Patriots would like to keep and there is a certain price they would like to keep them at. Some teams may pay more that what the Patriots believe is fair value. This doesn't mean that the Patriots would necessarily be unwilling to outbid those teams. However, I do not understand the implication by some that the Patriots should not only calculate a fair value for a player, but then also increase that amount by 20%on the assumption that other teams will overbid so that they can ensure that they keep the player. That's just a really dumb way to run a business. Should the Patriots have offered Givens 6 million on the assumption that other team would offer 5 million? Suppose the best Givens would have gotten was 3 million? Then the Pats would have overspent by 3 million. The Pats placed a value on Vinetari that he obviously disagreed with and they GENEROUSLY allowed him to ply himself on the market. The Patriots could have easily franchised Vinetari again this year. This doesn't mean that the Patriots didn't want to keep Vinetari, it only meant that they weren't going to assume that VINETARI'S asking price was necessarily the MARKET price, as well they SHOULD NOT. Obviously they presumed, incorrectly, that Vinetari wanted to say in New England.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

What the Patriots offered Adam surprisingly came directly from Jonathan Kraft who apparently wanted the fan base and media to know that the team had "offered Adam a deal that would keep him the highest paid kicker in football." What came out a few days after he made that statement was the little detail that the deal offered no guaranteed or signing bonus money. Absent that any deal is essentially a year to year proposition, binding on the player but not the team. The deal smacked of a franchise tag without the accompanying 20% increases that are designed to stop a team from repetitive franchising.

Most teams, like most Pats fans, believed Adam would be resigned here and didn't bother contacting him because they didn't want to be used merely to drive up his price or the market. In fact the Packers inquired before setting up a visit because they did not want to waste time talking to him unless he was truly available, which he had to assure them he was. It was only after the Colts heard through backchannels via Willie Mac's agent that Adam was really available that they expressed an interest in talking to him. And within 24 hours they made him essentially the same offer the Pats had made, to make him the highest paid kicker, only for 5 years and with a signing bonus.

A week earlier Ryan Longwell, the second best FA kicker on the market, got a deal for 5 years $10M with a $3M signing bonus to kick for a dome team. Janakowski's deal in 2004 was for 5 years $10.5M with a $2.8M signing bonus. And he sucks. Neil Rackers had signed a 4 year $6.4M deal in November that included a $3M signing bonus - and he couldn't kick until he got to AZ. And after missing 4 games with a hamstring injury the Eagles gave David Akers a 5 year extension at $2M per with a $3M signing bonus last November. After Adam signed the Cowboys immediately signed Vanderjerk to a 3 year $5.5M deal with a $2.5M signing bonus - and he is 2 and a half years older than Adam and cannot handle kickoffs. So the market was pretty clear.

And you might want to add to your conspiracy theories that all this did or didn't transpire while Adam was unofficially represented by a member of his former career long agent Neil Cornrich's staff, the same fellow who has represented Bill Billichick in the past if not the present and who is currently under suspension from the NFLPA.

And as to whether Adam wanted to retire in a dome, he had said that might be something he would want to consider later in his career. He's only 33, he could have retired in a dome on his next deal. Guys kick into their 40's in domes.

 

[hwc]

Manning never won us a Superbowl with seconds remaining, let alone 2.

What's his name -- the kicker -- got plenty of applause for that. Boo the bum when he shows up in Foxboro. He's a frickin' Colt...

Who gives a rat's behind about his contract with the Colts. I'd boo him if it's a dollar a year for three years. Or a billion dollars a year for 100 years. What difference does it make?

 

[Gumby]

HOF implications count in decision

Everyone is ruled by self-interest. Not saying it is right he left; but take a minute to look at one other aspect from AV's perspective.

NFL HOF criteria.

How many kickers are in the HOF? Voting comes from all markets not just Boston - how many outside Boston votes could he count on?

From his perspective; if he can switch teams (and go to a dome where he can maintain a higher FG% ) and win a SB with another team; then when it comes time for HOF voting - voters would be more swayed that if he was an integral part of the Pats success.

If he stayed on the Pats and we won another one; he is just viewed as another cog in the BB machine.

Now if he goes to Colts and they fail; he risked it all and maybe lost it all. But if they do well and win a SB in one of the next 3 years; he becomes a hero in 2 markets and greatly enhances his chances for HOF. Even after turning his back on Boston - do you honestly think the Boston voters wouldn't hold their nose and vote yes?

So just another thought that it isn't necessarily ALL about the benjamins. (just mostly )

 

[Pats726]

You want the Pats fans to stand and cheer for a member of the other team? Are you out of your frickin' mind?

What's next? A standing ovation for Peyton Manning, too? Sheesh.

If what's his name, the kicker, wanted to be cheered in Foxboro, he should have signed a new deal with the team that plays in Foxboro. Screw the bum.

Classless....what is wrong with fans today...the so called BUM had a lot to do with 3 Lombardis...or maybe you are so out of it you don't remember that far back...

 

[shmessy]

Classless....what is wrong with fans today...the so called BUM had a lot to do with 3 Lombardis...or maybe you are so out of it you don't remember that far back...

Amen, Pats726. HWC's posts in this thread gives even a worse connotation to the word "fanatic".

Also, he must be new to sports and especially the Patriots if he's never heard of fans ever giving an opposing player a standing ovation.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Amen, Pats726. HWC's posts in this thread gives even a worse connotation to the word "fanatic".

Also, he must be new to sports and especially the Patriots if he's never heard of fans ever giving an opposing player a standing ovation.

I will join the fans in a good standing O when our previous kicker retires as a Patriot.

But, while he wears a Colts uniform, he's dead to me, and I will turn my back on him. He doesn't even rate a boo.

 

[shmessy]

I will join the fans in a good standing O when our previous kicker retires as a Patriot.

But, while he wears a Colts uniform, he's dead to me, and I will turn my back on him. He doesn't even rate a boo.

My Bad. I didn't clarify. I'm OK if people want to boo AV (because of the way he left) when he comes back, but the line that floored me from HWC was "You want the Pats fans to stand and cheer for a member of the other team? Are you out of your frickin' mind?".

Just because someone is on another team now doesn't automatically mean I have to boo him like I'm one of Pavlov's dogs. I will cheer Willie Mac, Bobby Hamilton, Antowain Smith and Joe Andruzzi before the games and in intros (but not during the games).

 

[fgssand]

My Bad. I didn't clarify. I'm OK if people want to boo AV (because of the way he left) when he comes back, but the line that floored me from HWC was "You want the Pats fans to stand and cheer for a member of the other team? Are you out of your frickin' mind?".

Just because someone is on another team now doesn't automatically mean I have to boo him like I'm one of Pavlov's dogs. I will cheer Willie Mac, Bobby Hamilton, Antowain Smith and Joe Andruzzi before the games and in intros (but not during the games).

This one is a toughie....can never forget all the joy and happiness of three S/bowls with AV kicking us there. Can never get used to seeing him in opposing colors, a Colts uni no less.

I don't care about the contract negotiations, he is gone, I am over it. I think Gotsko will do OK, or worst case, we survive a year with Gramatica, either way - we will make our share of extra points and field goals this year, maybe even have better kickoffs.

AV - You should have stayed, but that is the fan in me talking. That same fan in me will appreciate what you did forever, but will also wish you 0 for the rest of your career.

 

[spacecrime]

Everyone is ruled by self-interest. Not saying it is right he left; but take a minute to look at one other aspect from AV's perspective.

NFL HOF criteria.

I know. He said this in an interview about getting beeter stats in a dome to improve HoF chances.

But Ithink this is nuts. If good stats got you into the HoF, the Vanderjack would be way ahead of Vinatieiri. He has much better stats.

But everyone knows he got most of his stats in a dome, and so they mean much less than getting almostasgood stats kicking in snow and wind.

AV's kick in the Snow Bowl is the greatest kick in hte history of the NFL, and he could not have gotten it kicking in a dome. It would have just been another routine 45 yarder.

In a dome, he needs to have magnificent stats to make him look better than he did playing with the Pats. And with the Pats, he would have had more chances for a gaem winning kick, IMO, because of BB's routine of playing close,not running up the score, and causing the other team ot make a mistake in the end.

I just don't see him getting the same media attention with the COlts that could build the HoF hype machine. He will need a lot of medai hype because kickers just aren't normally HoF material.

He has to hope the Colts get into a couple SBs that he wins with kicks. Otherwise he is just another kicker.

And he absolutely has to out kick Gostkowski in this years NE game and Vanderjack in this years 'Boys game.

Gostkowski and Vanderjhack can have a bad game withouth affecting their legacy much. but for AV, he needs NOT to have a miss in these gamesto continue his legacy as the best.

It isn't right (or even commen sense) to judge his value and the value of his decision on two games, but that is EXACTLY what the media will do.

Parcells tried to tell him. Forget the money. Fame is to be had continuing to be the hero he has already been in NE. He could have been up there with Havelechick and Orr and how many other Boston famous sports figures.

I respect his right to make his decision, but think he made a mistake, and I definately do not respect the way he went about acting on his decision.

YMMV

 

[Pats726]

HWC's posts in this thread gives even a worse connotation to the word "fanatic".

Also, he must be new to sports and especially the Patriots if he's never heard of fans ever giving an opposing player a standing ovation.

It just seems that fans now (some..) have no understanding of what "calss" means and "sportsmanship"..although the latter is rare..(unfortunately.) Maybe I am too "old school"..but I remember when if an opposing player had a great game or made a great catch, he would be cheered...that recognition of many feats
would be greeted with ovations..and not simplistic "I can't cheer for him, he's the enemy" sort of thing... I remember many years ago, Hal Greer, who played for the "enemy", scoerd his xxxxth point in the Garden and how the crowd cheered him and gave him a large ovation. How how can one forget the "Beat LA" chants in the Garden. HAs sportsmanship and class left sports???

 

[fgssand]

I know. He said this in an interview about getting beeter stats in a dome to improve HoF chances.

But Ithink this is nuts. If good stats got you into the HoF, the Vanderjack would be way ahead of Vinatieiri. He has much better stats.

But everyone knows he got most of his stats in a dome, and so they mean much less than getting almostasgood stats kicking in snow and wind.

AV's kick in the Snow Bowl is the greatest kick in hte history of the NFL, and he could not have gotten it kicking in a dome. It would have just been another routine 45 yarder.

In a dome, he needs to have magnificent stats to make him look better than he did playing with the Pats. And with the Pats, he would have had more chances for a gaem winning kick, IMO, because of BB's routine of playing close,not running up the score, and causing the other team ot make a mistake in the end.

I just don't see him getting the same media attention with the COlts that could build the HoF hype machine. He will need a lot of medai hype because kickers just aren't normally HoF material.

He has to hope the Colts get into a couple SBs that he wins with kicks. Otherwise he is just another kicker.

And he absolutely has to out kick Gostkowski in this years NE game and Vanderjack in this years 'Boys game.

Gostkowski and Vanderjhack can have a bad game withouth affecting their legacy much. but for AV, he needs NOT to have a miss in these gamesto continue his legacy as the best.

It isn't right (or even commen sense) to judge his value and the value of his decision on two games, but that is EXACTLY what the media will do.

Parcells tried to tell him. Forget the money. Fame is to be had continuing to be the hero he has already been in NE. He could have been up there with Havelechick and Orr and how many other Boston famous sports figures.

I respect his right to make his decision, but think he made a mistake, and I definately do not respect the way he went about acting on his decision.

YMMV

Great perspective.....I agree with all of your points, in particular - he will have a very hard time maintaining his "legendary status" in a dome in Indiana, unless he wins a superbowl for them and is very accurate going forward.

He may have buried his chances for HOF in the quiet midwest....

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I know. He said this in an interview about getting beeter stats in a dome to improve HoF chances.

But Ithink this is nuts. If good stats got you into the HoF, the Vanderjack would be way ahead of Vinatieiri. He has much better stats.

But everyone knows he got most of his stats in a dome, and so they mean much less than getting almostasgood stats kicking in snow and wind.

AV's kick in the Snow Bowl is the greatest kick in hte history of the NFL, and he could not have gotten it kicking in a dome. It would have just been another routine 45 yarder.

In a dome, he needs to have magnificent stats to make him look better than he did playing with the Pats. And with the Pats, he would have had more chances for a gaem winning kick, IMO, because of BB's routine of playing close,not running up the score, and causing the other team ot make a mistake in the end.

I just don't see him getting the same media attention with the COlts that could build the HoF hype machine. He will need a lot of medai hype because kickers just aren't normally HoF material.

He has to hope the Colts get into a couple SBs that he wins with kicks. Otherwise he is just another kicker.

And he absolutely has to out kick Gostkowski in this years NE game and Vanderjack in this years 'Boys game.

Gostkowski and Vanderjhack can have a bad game withouth affecting their legacy much. but for AV, he needs NOT to have a miss in these gamesto continue his legacy as the best.

It isn't right (or even commen sense) to judge his value and the value of his decision on two games, but that is EXACTLY what the media will do.

Parcells tried to tell him. Forget the money. Fame is to be had continuing to be the hero he has already been in NE. He could have been up there with Havelechick and Orr and how many other Boston famous sports figures.

I respect his right to make his decision, but think he made a mistake, and I definately do not respect the way he went about acting on his decision.

YMMV

That kind of advice coming from that particular source was priceless. Must have been giving it in hindsight. LOL And he will get more media attention in Indy at least this year, regardless of any impact, simply because the Colts are the media darlings of the NFL and his signing as the anti-Vandy is a storyline.

Look, with few exceptions I think they all want to stay. But this is their livlihood, and they have to make their decisions based on more than the feel good fan mentality. Players generally have a sense of how important retaining them is to a team. This team doesn't make sentimental decisions in the Belichick era, and the players for the most part either understand or accept that. Fans say they do, yet they persist in wanting to blame the player for not just taking whatever this organization offers.

Kicking in a dome isn't an issue for Adam at 33. But it will be when this contract is over and he's 38. If he's healthy or healthier performing in that environment by and large, if he's continuing to post 100+ point seasons (and the 61 PAT's helped Vanderjagt immensly in 2004 when he only kicked 20 FG's), if he gets more pro bowl nods, if he surpasses some of the consistency records Vandy easily racked up kicking in a dome, and if he gets another 3+ year deal kicking for the Colts or some other dome team, it can only enhance his existing credentials as a HOF kicker, not to mention his financial bottom line. And if this team wasn't inclined to give him A LONG TERM DEAL WITH SIGNING BONUS OR SOME OTHER FORM OF GUARANTEE at 33, he likely felt there was no shot of him finishing his career here anyway unless he decided to retire and walk away on the day that they decided to cut him. Few players want to do that. He wants to kick somewhere as long as he feels comfortable he can contribute. Can't necessarily to that (let alone here) as a kicker because we don't carry second or third string backups as we do with some other positions like 5th WR/emergency DB or veteran QB. If those guys want to swallow hard and hang on in that role, that's great. Adam didn't have that option going forward.

That the Patriots reportedly were willing to talk bonus at the 11th hour once he had the deal he wanted on the table from another team, who offered it willingly with the stipulation that he take it or leave it in under an hour, is immaterial. It was too little too late and only offered under duress if at all (and by a team who had leaked to their media contacts not only their standing offer but their assessment of his ranking). He did what he had to do and they had plenty of time to have talked him out of it in the hours, days, months and even years preceding that 11th hour had they truly been willing to commit to him. Because even without a new CBA windfall, his cap under the deal he got will be almost a million less than his cap would have been on the salary only deal they were offering. The issue was always one of committment.

I'm not ever going to boo a guy who played such a huge roll in this team ever even getting to a Superbowl, let alone winning 3 in 5 of his 10 seasons, and who was always such a good player, teamate and citizen in his time here - particularly when IMHO the team failed to make re-signing him long term any kind of priority. And I for one will continue to root for him in those instances when his individual accomplishments don't in any way impact the Patriots. In other words, I hope he is wildly successful as a PK with the Colts and he does become the second ever PK in the HOF and it simply has little or no measurable impact on the Colts performance because the kicker wasn't really their underlying deficiency to begin with.