Pasquarelli on Vinatieri

[kwf]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2455053

EXCERPT:
INDIANAPOLIS -- Twenty-four hours.

That's all the time it took in March, from initial overture to contract agreement, according to Adam Vinatieri, for the Indianapolis Colts to pirate the game's most clutch kicker away from the New England Patriots as an unrestricted free agent.

"They kind of called out of the blue and said, 'Would you be interested?' and things just started rolling pretty quickly from there," said Vinatieri during the Colts' full-squad minicamp last weekend. "I mean, if I was going to leave New England, it wasn't going to be just for the sake of leaving. I'm too old to start over with a team that's rebuilding. For me, I wanted to go to a team that was close to winning a Super Bowl … and no one is closer than these guys."

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You have it wrong. Adam WANTED to leave.

Our new member Plattsfan is like a voice of reason in a sea of jilted jealous lovers.

I think he wanted to stay but decided that it was not in his best long term interest to remain on a team with exceedingly high expectations, one of the tougher kicking schedules (AFCE) and environments (Gillette) in the league, and a FO who was unwilling to make a committment to him beyond year to year (and that is what a no signing bonus contract amounts to in the NFL regardless of how Jonathan Kraft chooses to spin it).

Should he have held the gun closer to their heads since they didn't apparently notice it was pointing in their direction for the last two years? His leaving was their choice as much as his. If they had wanted him to stay they should have made their best offer a preemptive one rather that sniveling about how they didn't get a chance to match someone elses. It wouldn't have cost them a nickel more than the offer they reportedly made - just a standard bonus committment that would have simultaneously lowered his cap hit. So don't be shocked that to some of us it seems almost as if they politely held the door open while nudging him out of it.

I think some here have deluded themselves into believing a Brady or a Seymour doesn't do the exact same thing under the same circumstances. I guess we'll never know though because the FO didn't try to convince the fan base that offering either of them zero bonus deals could still be considered keeping them among the highest paid.

I think at the end of the day, somebody misjudged Adam's market - and apparently it wasn't Adam.

 

[spacecrime]

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades...

Works for nuclear weapons, too.....

 

[Pats726]

I don't agree...AV wanted OUT of NE...

 

[spacecrime]

I don't agree...AV wanted OUT of NE...

I agree with your disagreement

He said so in an interview with Felger, didn't he? That he wanted to play in a dome because he wanted better stats to help his chancs for the HoF. I was a bit surprisd at that, but it made sense why there was no movement in negotiating.

If one party does not want to have an agreement, negotiating is pointless.

And apparently that is the way it was.

We all focus on the things we want to focus on, I suppose.

Well, there is no reason we all have to hold the same opinion here. Some can cheer Adam and some can boo.

But for those who don't understand why some of us don't like him for the way he left, as ascribe it to ingratitude or whatever, did you happen to notice that no one here is upseet with David Givens, whose loss is arguably more damaging than Vinatieir's loss? No one here is trashing WMG, and no one is faulting Fauria and Ashworth.

Vinatieri and Law.

Those are the ones who simply didn't want to play for the pats, and excuse us if we say, "Fine, go away and don't come back."

 

[rabthepat]

I agree with you...Adam who?

Was that from our former kicker who is now dead to me while his has those stupid horse shoes on his helmet?

Nothing is going to keep Peyton from choking in the big one.

.


The Adam who plays for the Colts is not the same guy on my Patriot DVDs. I only recognize him as Adam's Evil Twin Brother. Like I once saw on Star Trek with Captain Kirk.

 

[upstater1]

Our new member Plattsfan is like a voice of reason in a sea of jilted jealous lovers.

I think he wanted to stay but decided that it was not in his best long term interest to remain on a team with exceedingly high expectations, one of the tougher kicking schedules (AFCE) and environments (Gillette) in the league, and a FO who was unwilling to make a committment to him beyond year to year (and that is what a no signing bonus contract amounts to in the NFL regardless of how Jonathan Kraft chooses to spin it).

Should he have held the gun closer to their heads since they didn't apparently notice it was pointing in their direction for the last two years? His leaving was their choice as much as his. If they had wanted him to stay they should have made their best offer a preemptive one rather that sniveling about how they didn't get a chance to match someone elses. It wouldn't have cost them a nickel more than the offer they reportedly made - just a standard bonus committment that would have simultaneously lowered his cap hit. So don't be shocked that to some of us it seems almost as if they politely held the door open while nudging him out of it.

I think some here have deluded themselves into believing a Brady or a Seymour doesn't do the exact same thing under the same circumstances. I guess we'll never know though because the FO didn't try to convince the fan base that offering either of them zero bonus deals could still be considered keeping them among the highest paid.

I think at the end of the day, somebody misjudged Adam's market - and apparently it wasn't Adam.

And how does that contradict what I wrote. In fact, you agreed with it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

And how does that contradict what I wrote. In fact, you agreed with it.

You stated he WANTED to go. I did not agree with that. In fact I stated I believe he wanted to stay. But it takes two to stay. He decided that it was not in his best long term interest to stay with a team that was not willing to offer him the security of a long term contract. And in that respect they made the decision for him.

 

[PatsWorldChamps]

You stated he WANTED to go. I did not agree with that. In fact I stated I believe he wanted to stay. But it takes two to stay. He decided that it was not in his best long term interest to stay with a team that was not willing to offer him the security of a long term contract. And in that respect they made the decision for him.

he wanted to go/had to go... he was great here (the best, and second best FG's of all-time)... but, he no longer could kick a 40+ yd FG... we all know that... he got phased out last year... he made some great kicks; but it was an EASY decision to let him go.
ill bet BB did not want to have AV on the Pats roster as the highest paid kicker in history (which he offered)... ill bet BB breathed a sigh of relief when AV left, to save the pats the PR problem of dumping him; but AV was getting dumped, plain and simple... thanks for the 3 great kicks, but BB's job is to win NEXT year, and AV would not help that cause.

 

[PatsWorldChamps]

Our new member Plattsfan is like a voice of reason in a sea of jilted jealous lovers.

I think he wanted to stay but decided that it was not in his best long term interest to remain on a team with exceedingly high expectations, one of the tougher kicking schedules (AFCE) and environments (Gillette) in the league, and a FO who was unwilling to make a committment to him beyond year to year (and that is what a no signing bonus contract amounts to in the NFL regardless of how Jonathan Kraft chooses to spin it).

Should he have held the gun closer to their heads since they didn't apparently notice it was pointing in their direction for the last two years? His leaving was their choice as much as his. If they had wanted him to stay they should have made their best offer a preemptive one rather that sniveling about how they didn't get a chance to match someone elses. It wouldn't have cost them a nickel more than the offer they reportedly made - just a standard bonus committment that would have simultaneously lowered his cap hit. So don't be shocked that to some of us it seems almost as if they politely held the door open while nudging him out of it.

I think some here have deluded themselves into believing a Brady or a Seymour doesn't do the exact same thing under the same circumstances. I guess we'll never know though because the FO didn't try to convince the fan base that offering either of them zero bonus deals could still be considered keeping them among the highest paid.

I think at the end of the day, somebody misjudged Adam's market - and apparently it wasn't Adam.

LOL... obviously, it was AV! we let him go... he was never a great kicker; he made 3 great kicks (and missed 2 ducks, that everyone forgets) and we still offered to make him the highest paid kicker in the history of the NFL... even though he could no longer make a 40-yd FG... this is the smartest move BB has ever made... not an easy one with the fans, but comeon, a kicker with an aging, 39-yd leg? why pay the money?

 

[aabtec]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2455053

EXCERPT:
INDIANAPOLIS -- Twenty-four hours.

That's all the time it took in March, from initial overture to contract agreement, according to Adam Vinatieri, for the Indianapolis Colts to pirate the game's most clutch kicker away from the New England Patriots as an unrestricted free agent.

"They kind of called out of the blue and said, 'Would you be interested?' and things just started rolling pretty quickly from there," said Vinatieri during the Colts' full-squad minicamp last weekend. "I mean, if I was going to leave New England, it wasn't going to be just for the sake of leaving. I'm too old to start over with a team that's rebuilding. For me, I wanted to go to a team that was close to winning a Super Bowl … and no one is closer than these guys."

when the Pats are back in the SB this year..he will be just like Milloy was..trying to hang out with his former team...

 

[spacecrime]

You stated he WANTED to go. I did not agree with that. In fact I stated I believe he wanted to stay. But it takes two to stay.

One to offer a contract, one to sign it.

And in that respect they made the decision for him.

Normally I find your posts sharp, to the point and on target, but you severely missed with this one. They could only make the decision for him if they had NOT offered him a contract.

Choosing not to take it was his decision.

It is so weak of anyone to say They left me no choice. There was a choice. HE made a choice. And he knows it:

http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/projo_20060329_29adam.12c8a493.html
He hasn't spoken to Belichick or vice president of player personnel Scott Pioli since leaving. He's gotten messages from Pats owner Robert Kraft but wants to get his mind right before making that return call.

"I hope (Belichick and Pioli aren't) bitter towards me," he said. "Everybody has opportunities, and in this sport sometimes players move around a little bit. I have to thank them for the amazing years I was involved with the team. We won because of their expertise. I still have the utmost respect for them and love for the Kraft family.

"Hopefully, people in New England can respect my decision in the sense that it was truly the best option for me at this point," he explained.


And anyway, he said publically in an interview with Felgy that he didn't want to be here. Unfortunately the articles have been archived by the Herald.If anyone has access they could did them up:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=34074

Felger can't let Vinatieri go, 2 articles today

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...ticleid=134765
http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...ticleid=134766

THere's nothing new here and they say exactly the same thing. He's more like an obsessed fan than a reporter IMO. Vinatieri says he didn't give the Pats a chance to match so what did Felger want them to do? I'd also like to know why whenever a player leaves, the media has to keep asking if the team called that player? Does every free agent that leaves call the team to thank them? I doubt it.

 

[kptmorgan04]

IMO the Pats made the right decescion in not more actively pursuing to sign him long term. I loved him while he was here, he was a cult hero and one of my favorite Patriots. I cheered him loudly and often while he was in a pats uniform and even liked his stupid commercials. But......
I will be at that Pats/Colts game and I will Boo him loudly regardless of what fans around me do. His situation to me is very like Damon, which I think the sox made the right decescion for the long term of the organization, but for a player to go to The Rival I cant get over. Good for both of them, but they both could have made there $ in other ways as icons in this area.
He is dead to me.

 

[upstater1]

You stated he WANTED to go. I did not agree with that. In fact I stated I believe he wanted to stay. But it takes two to stay. He decided that it was not in his best long term interest to stay with a team that was not willing to offer him the security of a long term contract. And in that respect they made the decision for him.

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong here. The Colts offered him $200k more a year, while the Patriots were offering him a deal that would have made him the highest paid kicker in the history of the NFL.

200k. That's it. That's the difference in the contracts.

Now, consider, many of us are saying he also squandered his legacy around ehre and a lot of promotional dollars.

combine that with his decision not to let the Patriots meet or halfway match that extra 200k, and there's only one conclusion you can draw. He really wanted to leave.

If you're correct, that he left for an extra 200k when he could have made that and much more promoting himself in New England, then Adam Vinatieri is a dunderheaded moron. I'm actually giving the guy a bit more respect and saying, Well, he certainly didn't leave because of the money.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

One to offer a contract, one to sign it.

Normally I find your posts sharp, to the point and on target, but you severely missed with this one. They could only make the decision for him if they had NOT offered him a contract.

Choosing not to take it was his decision.

It is so weak of anyone to say They left me no choice. There was a choice. HE made a choice. And he knows it:

http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/projo_20060329_29adam.12c8a493.html
He hasn't spoken to Belichick or vice president of player personnel Scott Pioli since leaving. He's gotten messages from Pats owner Robert Kraft but wants to get his mind right before making that return call.

"I hope (Belichick and Pioli aren't) bitter towards me," he said. "Everybody has opportunities, and in this sport sometimes players move around a little bit. I have to thank them for the amazing years I was involved with the team. We won because of their expertise. I still have the utmost respect for them and love for the Kraft family.

"Hopefully, people in New England can respect my decision in the sense that it was truly the best option for me at this point," he explained.


And anyway, he said publically in an interview with Felgy that he didn't want to be here. Unfortunately the articles have been archived by the Herald.If anyone has access they could did them up:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=34074

Felger can't let Vinatieri go, 2 articles today

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...ticleid=134765
http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...ticleid=134766

THere's nothing new here and they say exactly the same thing. He's more like an obsessed fan than a reporter IMO. Vinatieri says he didn't give the Pats a chance to match so what did Felger want them to do? I'd also like to know why whenever a player leaves, the media has to keep asking if the team called that player? Does every free agent that leaves call the team to thank them? I doubt it.

The contract they had offered him prior to his visit to Indy was unsignable by any player with half a brain. No bonus money = no real deal. I don't believe being tired of dealing with a particular FO MO equates with not wanting to be here.

Offering a player a deal you attempt to spin in public as one that will allow him to remain the highest paid player at his position, when that deal is in fact a one year deal for the highest salary at the position provided you don't tear a hammy in camp, is BS spin and an insult to the player's (and apparently some but not all fans) intelligence.

Could be still have given them a chance to match - which they seem to indicate they expected? I suppose so, but I'm somewhat vindictive so I would not have and therefore can appreciate why he might not have been willing to. Perhaps Adam didn't trust them to given the fact that the Colts offer was off the table if he in any way attempted to use it as leverage.

He never told Felger he wanted out. Some on the team and in the media sensed his frustration with the way the organization handled his contracts. Sometimes players tire of playing in an atmosphere where on the business end they have to regularly squeeze their employer by the gonads to get what they believe they have earned and deserve. And they find it intoxicatingly refreshing when someone else just offers them what they wanted all along in a matter of minutes.

Adam didn't point the finger because he's a classy guy. He took full responsibility for his decision, and for that he is piloried here. Whatever. Had he whined and said look what I did for them and they couldn't even step up for me without the Colts holding a gun to their heads...he'd have still been piloried here as a whining sour grapes jerk. So he moved on to a place where they were willing to do more than say they valued him, they were willing to back it up with exactly the deal he wanted and the bonus of getting it to kick half of his games in a dome to boot, and the only caveat was that he take it or leave it without using them as leverage. He promised them he wouldn't and he was a man of his word.

You can bet that if and when BB offers the Law camp a deal it will be with the same take it or leave it caveat.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

IMO the Pats made the right decescion in not more actively pursuing to sign him long term. I loved him while he was here, he was a cult hero and one of my favorite Patriots. I cheered him loudly and often while he was in a pats uniform and even liked his stupid commercials. But......
I will be at that Pats/Colts game and I will Boo him loudly regardless of what fans around me do. His situation to me is very like Damon, which I think the sox made the right decescion for the long term of the organization, but for a player to go to The Rival I cant get over. Good for both of them, but they both could have made there $ in other ways as icons in this area.
He is dead to me.

Adam is the antithesis of Damon, who publicly whined and moaned about his mistreatment and demanded the team match the offer he had in hand, not to mention when on ad nauseum about all the other personnel mistakes they were making and how valuable he personally had been (apparently half season Johnny who most believed was overpaid by Duquette for the first three seasons he was here had some selective memory issues too).

Damon wasn't going to make another $12M here as an icon, and Adam will make more in interest on his $3.5M signing bonus from Indy than he ever made hawking pizza and pickups.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong here. The Colts offered him $200k more a year, while the Patriots were offering him a deal that would have made him the highest paid kicker in the history of the NFL.

200k. That's it. That's the difference in the contracts.

No. The Colts and the Pats offered him dramatically different deals. The Pats offered a deal they claimed would keep him the highest paid kicker in the league. They offered no bonus money, which means they offered him a one year deal.

The Colts offered him a 5 year $11.5M deal that included a $3.5M signing bonus that would guarantee he saw at least the first 3 years of the deal and roughly $7.5M.

NIGHT AND DAY.

The Colts stipulated that if he used their offer as leverage against the Pats the deal was off the table. So his choice was take it or leave it and he chose to take it.

 

[upstater1]

First, It's a $3 million signing bonus, and how much protection do you think that really affords Adam. In two years, the salary cap issue reduces the hit on that bonus to $1.8 million, which--when you're on the hook for $2.5 million in salary, is negligible.

In other words, it may even produce an incentive on the perenially cash-strapped Colts to cut him.

Would you have foreseen the Patriots cutting Vinatieri after 1 year, even a poor year? I wouldn't have, especially given how long they stayed with Ken Walter.

Let's say he only played 2 years with the Colts and Patriots.

With the Colts, he would have made $6.8 million, and with the Patriots only $5 million (this is assuming the Patriots would have given him zero as a signing bonus, which is hard to believe, esp. when you look at Josh Miller's contract).

After 3 years, he makes $8.7 with the Colts, and $7.5 with the Patriots. If the Patriots had given him only, say, a $600k bonus, then the difference after 3 years with each team is less than a million.

That's a lot of money, sure, but the additional incentives would have put Adam over the top, and secured him for a lifetime. I'm sure he realized this, but I really think he wanted to leave.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

First, It's a $3 million signing bonus, and how much protection do you think that really affords Adam. In two years, the salary cap issue reduces the hit on that bonus to $1.8 million, which--when you're on the hook for $2.5 million in salary, is negligible.

In other words, it may even produce an incentive on the perenially cash-strapped Colts to cut him.

Would you have foreseen the Patriots cutting Vinatieri after 1 year, even a poor year? I wouldn't have, especially given how long they stayed with Ken Walter.

Let's say he only played 2 years with the Colts and Patriots.

With the Colts, he would have made $6.8 million, and with the Patriots only $5 million (this is assuming the Patriots would have given him zero as a signing bonus, which is hard to believe, esp. when you look at Josh Miller's contract).

After 3 years, he makes $8.7 with the Colts, and $7.5 with the Patriots. If the Patriots had given him only, say, a $600k bonus, then the difference after 3 years with each team is less than a million.

That's a lot of money, sure, but the additional incentives would have put Adam over the top, and secured him for a lifetime. I'm sure he realized this, but I really think he wanted to leave.

Here are some headline blurbs from USA Today:

Mar. 23, 2006 - 12:52 p.m. ET

Colts signed K Adam Vinatieri to a five-year contract.

The deal includes a $3.5 million signing bonus and reportedly will be for $12 million. Vinatieri dodged any tough questions at his introductory press conference about his departure from the Patriots, repeatedly complimenting his former organization.


Mar. 22, 2006 - 12:20 p.m. ET

Adam Vinatieri's contract will reportedly average $2.5 million over the first three years.

The Colts threw in a $3.5 million signing bonus, which probably sealed the deal. The base average is about $500,000 less than what he would've gotten had the Patriots franchised him. Still, Vinatieri will be the highest paid kicker in the NFL.

Source: ESPN.com

Mar. 21, 2006 - 5:56 p.m. ET

Adam Vinatieri has reached an agreement in principle with the Colts.

This one stings for Patriots fans, but the team simply wasn't willing to pay a kicker a $3.5 million signing bonus. Some financial terms still reportedly have to be worked out.
Source: FoxSports.com

Mar. 21, 2006 - 3:39 p.m. ET

Adam Vinatieri has fired his agent.

He wants to be the highest paid kicker in football. Vinatieri hired agent Gary Uberstine, who has a business partnership with Willie McGinest.

Source: Boston Globe

Mar. 21, 2006 - 9:45 a.m. ET

Adam Vinatieri has no immediate plans to sign with the Packers or Patriots.

Perhaps he's waiting to see if the Cowboys enter the mix. The Packers are believed to have made a "hard sell" but Vinatieri left Green Bay without a contract.

Source: Green Bay Press-Gazette

His cap hit is $700K per year for 5 years. So to cut him in year 2 would cost $2.8M - more than he is scheduled to cost against the cap, year 3 $2.1M and likely a wash. This year he is only costing Indy $1.5M on the cap. His deal averages $2.5M a year over the first 3, but he doesn't cost that because this year alone he gets over $4.5M in his hand. Which is another reason why he doesn't get cut until year 3 at the earliest.

There are rare exceptions but you have to go rapidly and entirely in the crapper - Martin Gramatica comes to mind.

The Pats no signing bonus offer deal would have allowed AV to be cut any time, including before this season even commenced. Were they having second thoughts about offering a signing bonus? That has been hinted in some reports but if so it was a case of too little too late.

 

[upstater1]

Here are some headline blurbs from USA Today:

The article that's linked in this very thread said his bonus was $3 million, so that's what I based my numbers on. Based on that reading, the Colts would save money by cutting him after his second year. If it's 3.5 million, they'd have to wait until his third year.