OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merged)

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

And the big thing a couple years ago was that the pats videotaped defensive signals in the first half and used them to cheat in the second half.

How about it we at least learn what happened before trashing a franchise and deciding that someting is true because media talking heads are reporting it.

100% agreed. I read every page of the Plaintiff's Lawsuit and, if his allegations are verified, it doesn't look good for the Saints.

But, everything at this point is "allegation" based on the word of what would usually be regarded as a reliable source, were it not for his grievances against the Saints and his own financial interest in the outcome of his suit.

Plus, I want to hear the Saints' side of what happened. The Lawsuit itself contains some confusing information, including that the Vicodin was obtained on a prescription that did not name an individual, but rather stipulated that it was for "the Saints."

I'm also interested in the legal status of prescription drugs stored on the premises of an NFL team, under Louisiana and/or Federal law. If we believe the Lawsuit, the NFL's procedures for the storage and distribution of these drugs seem to have been breached. But, who, under the law, actually possesses those drugs before they are distributed? Who is responsible under the law for reporting their status if a Schedule III drug is missing or mis-allocated?

Let's all take a deep breath and not treat things as facts before they are established.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Here's a link to an article by Gary Myers in today's NY Daily News about the New Orleans situation.

The "new information" is the comment from a Trainer for another NFL team who says that he doesn't keep meds on hand, but orders them player by player with a Doctor's prescription. Also, a little more information on the NFL's policies and procedures in these areas.


New Orleans Saints accused of cover-up of stolen painkillers; Coach Sean Payton implicated in suit

 

[pherein]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

100% agreed. I read every page of the Plaintiff's Lawsuit and, if his allegations are verified, it doesn't look good for the Saints.

But, everything at this point is "allegation" based on the word of what would usually be regarded as a reliable source, were it not for his grievances against the Saints and his own financial interest in the outcome of his suit.

Plus, I want to hear the Saints' side of what happened. The Lawsuit itself contains some confusing information, including that the Vicodin was obtained on a prescription that did not name an individual, but rather stipulated that it was for "the Saints."

I'm also interested in the legal status of prescription drugs stored on the premises of an NFL team, under Louisiana and/or Federal law. If we believe the Lawsuit, the NFL's procedures for the storage and distribution of these drugs seem to have been breached. But, who, under the law, actually possesses those drugs before they are distributed? Who is responsible under the law for reporting their status if a Schedule III drug is missing or mis-allocated?

Let's all take a deep breath and not treat things as facts before they are established.

Ive found this so far
Suit: Zero Evidence Linking Payton To Drug Abuse

Its pretty accurate because at the time the U.S. Attorney’s Eastern District of Louisiana office did not see a case, and the local police saw no reason and are not looking into the matter. I think both sited lack of evidence.

Santini was wearing a wire during conversations without a warrant, so they are probably not admissible in court. Hence a civil case.

Payton did suffer migraines for months because of a drywall issue, and sued a company for it. He might have been given Vicodin for it.
Saints coach latest victim of tainted Chinese drywall - New Orleans News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - FOX 8 Live WVUE-TV Channel 8

From what I understand in L.A. Law attending physician Dr. Amoss is responsible for distribution of drugs with the guidance of the trainers and other medical staff. The drug locker is not considered a pharmacy, but he is responsible for its distribution.

A ledger is kept of all drugs used for the team and the NFL security office.
If this was found to be tampered with, it would be big and loomis is the only one that could do that.

Vitt is on tape taking pills. I dont know who has this tape, or if it can prove he took 30 or just 1 pill. But he was ordered to rehab by loomis. Vitt has a medical condition that is very painfull, and the saints might be protecting him because he went over board or got addicted. I just don't know, but seems like something they would do.

So far all local and federal agencies presented with the case, by the saints and under loomis's direction have decided not to pursue it. That could just be because its louisiana and no one is going to prosecute the saints after all they have done.

Every day I think of a new way too appreciate what NE has done to get 3 rings, spygate was pretty bad, Im seeing now, please tell me this gets easier.

 

[pherein]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Federal Law? This is Louisiana

Anyway, I was skimming through the thread over at Saintsreport and I've come across a few comments about how it's being misrepresented in the media, and they're right, and it's unfortunate that really only Patriots fans will understand that.

I think you have both counts right PatsSox
it is Louisiana and the Patriots understand better than most, probably better than us what is happening.
But the way we are built, I dont see anyone laying blame and allowing Vitt to take a fall. Its just not our way. If Vitt goes down we all go down. Saints will support his privacy as a person and a friend, so will Benson.

 

[pherein]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Same experience and same thought. Well said Jackson.

Jackson and Hardboiled, I seem to feel I am posting too much on this matter, and feel I am intruding, this is the patriots home to voice their opinions, and not really my right to voice my own.

I can only say to this that Im very proud that we have a good football spirit, and Im proud of N.O.

But I am much more proud of a team that came to our City and was defeated, because they showed us grace, honor, good friendship, and what it was to be a champion. It is much more to lose with the excellence that your amazing fans did in N.O. than it is for us to win and have compassion and admiration.
I know pride is beneath most of you, but your fans should be soo proud. We have no illusion of your fans worth,first, or that
you can beat us, I hope we show the same championship manor when we lose next time, and do not disappoint.
It was very much our pleasure, and I do hope we can do it again sometime.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Ive found this so far
Suit: Zero Evidence Linking Payton To Drug Abuse

Its pretty accurate because at the time the U.S. Attorney’s Eastern District of Louisiana office did not see a case, and the local police saw no reason and are not looking into the matter. I think both sited lack of evidence.

Santini was wearing a wire during conversations without a warrant, so they are probably not admissible in court. Hence a civil case.

Payton did suffer migraines for months because of a drywall issue, and sued a company for it. He might have been given Vicodin for it.
Saints coach latest victim of tainted Chinese drywall - New Orleans News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - FOX 8 Live WVUE-TV Channel 8

From what I understand in L.A. Law attending physician Dr. Amoss is responsible for distribution of drugs with the guidance of the trainers and other medical staff. The drug locker is not considered a pharmacy, but he is responsible for its distribution.

A ledger is kept of all drugs used for the team and the NFL security office.
If this was found to be tampered with, it would be big and loomis is the only one that could do that.

Vitt is on tape taking pills. I dont know who has this tape, or if it can prove he took 30 or just 1 pill. But he was ordered to rehab by loomis. Vitt has a medical condition that is very painfull, and the saints might be protecting him because he went over board or got addicted. I just don't know, but seems like something they would do.

So far all local and federal agencies presented with the case, by the saints and under loomis's direction have decided not to pursue it. That could just be because its louisiana and no one is going to prosecute the saints after all they have done.

Every day I think of a new way too appreciate what NE has done to get 3 rings, spygate was pretty bad, Im seeing now, please tell me this gets easier.

Thanks for the nice words in the final comment; when you get to the top, people want to see you fall. I wish I could say it gets easier, though....

I've said above that I want to wait until the facts are in and, since all we have are allegations at this point, I'm going to stick to that.

If you want to know what I think, absent the facts, here it is.

I think that things were probably a little "loosey goosey" in the Saint's training room when it came to Vicodin and maybe other meds; there were regularly 100 or so Vicodin tablets on hand, they were in a large bottle marked "Saints" and some got careless in taking them, behaving like nurses or doctors used to often act in improperly managed hospital pharmacies (not for nothing are in house Hospital pharmacies now managed by third parties) or medical facilities.

It doesn't seem that people were stealing them to sell them on the street, but rather "appropriating" them because they needed them or thought they needed them.

Because the quantities were relatively small (yes, of course, one pill could be a felony, but there's no evidence, at this time at least, that this was a wholesale problem), because no addiction problems had surfaced and because no one had opened up shop as a drug dealer, the organization managed to cover for the occasional discrepancies in the drug count.

For whatever reason, the informal "accomodations" that allowed the improper removal of the drugs to continue broke down last year. It's a shame that Loomis and Santini couldn't come to an agreement that allowed Santini to feel he had done his job without involving the authorities. Now, the matter is in the hands of people who are not inclined to be very "understanding" of the milieu that could have allowed this to happen.

Personally, unless evidence emerges that this was part of a criminal conspiracy to steal and sell drugs illegally, I hope that there is not enough evidence to prosecute people in criminal court who were addicted to or abused these substances. That's not to say that, if my version of the "facts" turns out to be the case or close thereto, I don't want the Saints management to be disciplined severely by the NFL for what it allowed, just that I don't think any of them should go to jail; but that's not for me to decide.

According to the article cited a few posts above, other teams seem to have had a similar problem/issue/challenge/whatever and resolved it by stopping the practice of keeping drugs on site, but distributing them directly to players when prescribed. I'll bet Loomis is thinking that would have been a pretty good idea right about now.

 

[Joker]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Have any of you ever PLAYED football even on a collegiate level?? I'd be very surprised if every single starting player in the NFL,outside of a PK or punter,didn't have a prescription for Vicodin. Vikes and percs on Monday and Tuesday post game are as common as whirlpools...this is an extremely pain filled and painful game to play week in and out. Painkillers are simply a way of life.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Have any of you ever PLAYED football even on a collegiate level?? I'd be very surprised if every single starting player in the NFL,outside of a PK or punter,didn't have a prescription for Vicodin. Vikes and percs on Monday and Tuesday post game are as common as whirlpools...this is an extremely pain filled and painful game to play week in and out. Painkillers are simply a way of life.

Not sure what your point is, as even those of us who never played football understand that. The key word you used is "prescription," which is the issue here.

 

[bigcountry75]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Ive found this so far
Suit: Zero Evidence Linking Payton To Drug Abuse

Its pretty accurate because at the time the U.S. Attorney’s Eastern District of Louisiana office did not see a case, and the local police saw no reason and are not looking into the matter. I think both sited lack of evidence.

Santini was wearing a wire during conversations without a warrant, so they are probably not admissible in court. Hence a civil case.

Payton did suffer migraines for months because of a drywall issue, and sued a company for it. He might have been given Vicodin for it.
Saints coach latest victim of tainted Chinese drywall - New Orleans News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - FOX 8 Live WVUE-TV Channel 8

From what I understand in L.A. Law attending physician Dr. Amoss is responsible for distribution of drugs with the guidance of the trainers and other medical staff. The drug locker is not considered a pharmacy, but he is responsible for its distribution.

A ledger is kept of all drugs used for the team and the NFL security office.
If this was found to be tampered with, it would be big and loomis is the only one that could do that.

Vitt is on tape taking pills. I dont know who has this tape, or if it can prove he took 30 or just 1 pill. But he was ordered to rehab by loomis. Vitt has a medical condition that is very painfull, and the saints might be protecting him because he went over board or got addicted. I just don't know, but seems like something they would do.

So far all local and federal agencies presented with the case, by the saints and under loomis's direction have decided not to pursue it. That could just be because its louisiana and no one is going to prosecute the saints after all they have done.

Every day I think of a new way too appreciate what NE has done to get 3 rings, spygate was pretty bad, Im seeing now, please tell me this gets easier.

From what I "understand" he was prescribed them by a doctor for his condition but according to "sources" he did get addicted to them......I don't want to start throwing names around but from my earlier posts you guys can figure out the quotations and what I am talking about.....

 

[Joker]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Not sure what your point is, as even those of us who never played football understand that. The key word you used is "prescription," which is the issue here.

I'd think that there would be recurring prescriptions for Vicodin for any/all players who need it. I was good friends with a couple of Patriot players in the early 90's,(can't reveal names, obviously, but I worked as a bartender at Engine Co. in Providence and became buddies with them). They took painkillers on a regular basis during the season. I assume they were prescribed by the team physician. They also took cortisone shots directly in joints and lived in whirlpools.One of my friends was a well known kick returner/backup RB and he usually didn't even get out of bed until Wednesdays during the season. What I'm driving at is I doubt these pills were locked away...I'm guessing they were readily available to players who have scripts during the season.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

I'd think that there would be recurring prescriptions for Vicodin for any/all players who need it. I was good friends with a couple of Patriot players in the early 90's,(can't reveal names, obviously, but I worked as a bartender at Engine Co. in Providence and became buddies with them). They took painkillers on a regular basis during the season. I assume they were prescribed by the team physician. They also took cortisone shots directly in joints and lived in whirlpools.One of my friends was a well known kick returner/backup RB and he usually didn't even get out of bed until Wednesdays during the season. What I'm driving at is I doubt these pills were locked away...I'm guessing they were readily available to players who have scripts during the season.

Things have changed a lot in the NFL in the last 20 years. See the link I provided above in the article by Gary Myers of the NY Daily News, who points out that it is very unusual now for teams to have candy jars full of Vicodin or other powerful drugs lying around where people can grab a few, since the potential for abuse is so high (and the attractiveness of reselling them is so lucrative). Brett Favre is the poster boy of Vicodin addiction in the NFL and has freely admitted the problem he had. It is irresponsible of teams to put this stuff around where players or others can just grab a few.

Teams appear now to dispense drugs directly to individual players through a team physician via prescription; they should be "readily available" only to those for whom they are prescribed. The Saints seem to have done things in an "old school" way, which, as I mentioned in another post, probably resulted in some lax attitudes towards who could get into the medicine locker. As Myers points out, many teams don't even keep prescription meds on the premises, other than what might be needed in an emergency.

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Potentially serious IF the allegations turn out to be true. The GM could possibly be charged with obstruction of justice (cover up, evidence tampering) and Vitt and Payton could also possibly be in jeopardy. All IF the allegations can be proven. More likely, now that the suit has gotten such prominence, the lawsuit will be settled quickly. Still it is not the plaintiff in the civil lawsuit who threatens the Saints, it is what law enforcement chooses to do with the allegations.

 

[Joker]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Things have changed a lot in the NFL in the last 20 years. See the link I provided above in the article by Gary Myers of the NY Daily News, who points out that it is very unusual now for teams to have candy jars full of Vicodin or other powerful drugs lying around where people can grab a few, since the potential for abuse is so high (and the attractiveness of reselling them is so lucrative). Brett Favre is the poster boy of Vicodin addiction in the NFL and has freely admitted the problem he had. It is irresponsible of teams to put this stuff around where players or others can just grab a few.

Teams appear now to dispense drugs directly to individual players through a team physician via prescription; they should be "readily available" only to those for whom they are prescribed. The Saints seem to have done things in an "old school" way, which, as I mentioned in another post, probably resulted in some lax attitudes towards who could get into the medicine locker. As Myers points out, many teams don't even keep prescription meds on the premises, other than what might be needed in an emergency.

that sounds very reasonable...if this is actually the case, then expect this story ot continue to have a life and eventually blow up into a firestorm...it just seems to be the nature of our "moralist" society these days. Seems everybody in the media is constantly trying to find dirt they can parlay into numbers so they pander to the public's hunger for these hidden underbelly stories.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

that sounds very reasonable...if this is actually the case, then expect this story ot continue to have a life and eventually blow up into a firestorm...it just seems to be the nature of our "moralist" society these days. Seems everybody in the media is constantly trying to find dirt they can parlay into numbers so they pander to the public's hunger for these hidden underbelly stories.

you're right there. if (IF!) the Saints did what the Lawsuit alleges, then they could be in trouble. However, I doubt it will turn out to have been as cut and dry as Santini argues it was. I'm starting to think that it's the team doctor and maybe the local pharmacy who will take the fall, for how the pills were prescribed and then distributed in a large bottle marked "The Saints."

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Potentially serious IF the allegations turn out to be true. The GM could possibly be charged with obstruction of justice (cover up, evidence tampering) and Vitt and Payton could also possibly be in jeopardy. All IF the allegations can be proven. More likely, now that the suit has gotten such prominence, the lawsuit will be settled quickly. Still it is not the plaintiff in the civil lawsuit who threatens the Saints, it is what law enforcement chooses to do with the allegations.

My guess is there are enough hazy areas that a criminal prosecution will be difficult. I do think that the Doctor and the Walgreen Pharmacy may be in real trouble with the DEA, though.

But, it is clear that NFL policies and procedures were disregarded concerning access to the Drug cabinet, so there will probably be some sanctions coming down from the League.

 

[chevss454]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

More info on Santini's track record, which is pretty outstanding when he was with the FBI. This can't be good for the Saints.

Santini has a track record of catching big fish | ProFootballTalk.com

A decade ago, Santini helped take down Louisiana Governor Edwin Edwards.

Acting initially on a tip, Santini's efforts contributed to Edwards' incarceration -- and they derailed Eddie DeBartolo's ownership of the 49ers. "Santini navigated a complicated web of corruption, bribery and Mafia involvement," Freeman writes. "What he did is the stuff of movies. Santini was so feared that according to court documents Edwards wanted to tap Santini's phone lines."

DeBartolo didn't go to jail, but he was disgraced by the failure to report Edwards' attempt to extort $400,000 from DeBartolo, who was attempting to get a casino license.

Now, Santini is targeting the Saints. If the team attempts to paint him as a wacko or a malcontent or greedy, his role in the Edwards case shouldn't be forgotten.

For any organization that employs a director of security, a former director of security arguably is the worst possible person to file a lawsuit, since the director of security is in position to know many things that most employees don't. Given Santini's track record, the fact that he's suing the Saints should make them even more nervous.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

More info on Santini's track record, which is pretty outstanding when he was with the FBI. This can't be good for the Saints.

Santini has a track record of catching big fish | ProFootballTalk.com

While we only have one side of the story at this time, it certainly doesn't look good for the Saints organization or the NFL. But, I'm waiting to hear the Saints' side of the story, presented by a good Lawyer.

I've read the Lawsuit back to front a couple of times and there are several areas about which I am not clear on the Law.

One thing that is clear to me is that the Team Doctor has a problem; he prescribed Vicodin "in bulk" for "The Saints" and not for particular individuals. In addition the Walgreen Pharmacy that dispensed the pills in this manner probably also has a problem. I also suspect that the Saints are in trouble with the NFL over violating it's own procedures.

The rest (all "alleged" at this time) depends on local and federal law, with which I am not familiar, governing the security and possession of controlled substances. So, I'm waiting to hear the other side of the story and to hear what comes out as admissible in a Criminal proceeding, should it get to that, which, based on what I have read, it probably won't.

 

[JMarr]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Unless it's a matter of national security or saving a life, a snitch is a POS no matter how you slice it. I hope the Saints countersue Santini's *** and make him think twice about going around and pulling this crap on his next employer (if he's ever employed again after this). Sounds like he's make quite a good living out of it.

Funny how people around here were ready to dismemeber Matt Walsh, yet treat Santini's treason like it was born out of some noble motive. Talk about double standards.

In spite of all the "feel good" stories about NO winning the SB, I never particulary liked Sean Payton and think he's arrogant and ****y, so I really don't care if he goes down either. (Sorry, Pherein).

 

[patchick]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

Unless it's a matter of national security or saving a life, a snitch is a POS no matter how you slice it. I hope the Saints countersue Santini's *** and make him think twice about going around and pulling this crap on his next employer (if he's ever employed again after this).

What "crap" is Santini pulling? He didn't run to the press with eye-popping allegations, or try to get money from a media outlet for his story. He just filed an illegal employment practices suit.

The guy is alleging that his boss made illegal conduct a condition of his employment, and it cost him his career. If that's the definition of "snitch," it seems that nobody should ever sue an ex-employer, period, out of loyalty to the people who screwed them over.

 

[JMarr]

Re: OT: Saints HC Sean Payton & LB coach accused of stealing team's painkillers (merg

What "crap" is Santini pulling? He didn't run to the press with eye-popping allegations, or try to get money from a media outlet for his story. He just filed an illegal employment practices suit.

The guy is alleging that his boss made illegal conduct a condition of his employment, and it cost him his career. If that's the definition of "snitch," it seems that nobody should ever sue an ex-employer, period, out of loyalty to the people who screwed them over.

H signed an employment contract that made breaking the law a condition of his employment and now he's crying foul.

Look, I haven't read all the articles, or the lawsuit. It was just apparent to me after reading the PFT snippet that this guy has made his post-FBI living by basically being a snitch. Although anyone who hires a known whistleblower as 'Director of Security' deserves everything they get I guess.