OT: New York Approves Location of New Bills Stadium

[Ring 6]

You deliberately twist everything you read. It's your MO. Nowhere did I write it reduces the tax NY takes in Buffalo. It says when players list non NY residences, they DON'T pay NY taxes on games outside NY. This means that NY is collecting taxes on 8 home games instead of 16.

But not only that, I also showed that you're using the wrong tax bracket and the vast majority of income is taxed at 6.8%, with the next step up to 9.5%.

You are wrong on both.

 

[Ring 6]

The NFL Minimum Salary is Higher Than Most Fans Realize

Being an NFL player puts you in elite company. It can also make you quite rich. People often talk about player contracts in the NFL, and player salary is of increasing interest to dedicated NFL fans because the league's superstars are paid like A-list celebrities. A lot of the time, we're...

fanbuzz.com

There's a dozen articles that have that. Just searched Google with NFL average salary.

Regardless, the cap is $180m. But if you'll notice teams do not spend to the cap.

Look at real cap spending: NFL Salary Cap Space | Over The Cap

Learn something for once in your life.

I accept that the $860k number must not include bonuses, those articles must be excluding that, but even if we take the 53 man roster and divide it by $150m, we still get a little lower than $3m. The first million is taxed at 6.8, the 2nd & 3rd at 9%.Regardless, it's not a straight $200m x 10.5%. No way. And it's going to come nowhere near the $1 billion in the article.

What? Why would you divide by 150 mill? The average team is only about 4 mill under the 182.5 cap not 32.5. The bulls are 3.4 and will probably use a chunk of that before the season is over. It also doesn’t work that way because the bulk of the payroll is in the high end.
You also are ignoring coaches, executives, staff, and other employees.
That easily puts them over 200 mill.

 

[Ring 6]

You've obviously never been to a Bills game. It's not like Foxboro. Nothing like it.

In fact I have. Have you?
Your argument is Buffalo is the only stadium that people don’t buy food, gear or pay for parking. BS and you know it.

 

[denverpatsfan]

Move the GD team to Toronto already! This fecking league is desperate to expand their fanbase overseas. It is a perfect match. Hopefully the Canadians will tolerate drunken table diving.

 

[Ring 6]

The majority of income is not in the top bracket. Absolutely wrong.

SHow me an article of experts refuting what these experts have to say. They are pretty absolute that there is widespread agreement.

Yes it is.
The top 30 players make approx 126 mill and all are over 1 mill.
That is 96 mill ( the majority) that is over the 1 mill bracket.

Buffalo Bills Salary Cap | Over the Cap

Buffalo Bills salary cap, contracts, bonus money, dead money, and cap savings for every player

overthecap.com

You appeal to authority is embarrassing. I have already pointed out the issues with the article and the so called studies and I am showing with actual facts why it is wrong.

 

[Ring 6]

You have to remember that teams don't spend to the cap.

They spend about 98% of it on average.

 

[patrickscribe]

As a Patriots fan living in Cleveland, I have been to about 15 Pats vs Bills games there. I love it. Luxury boxes don't take up crazy amount of space, so upper deck seats are way better than at Gillette. It's just a good basic place to see a football game.

Sorting out the economic gains isn't easy because Niagara Falls is a separate attraction, but one that brings whole families of visiting team fans to the region for a whole weekend. I see hundreds of Patriots jerseys around the falls the day before games, usually on guys with wives and kids following behind. That family's not just spending at the game. It's filling hotels and using other restaurants and shopping, while (stereotypically) the husband goes to the game.

 

[GaryfromTO]

I think the Bills had an arrangement to play a game or two there every season a decade ago? Heard it didn’t draw very well but they didn’t exactly have marquee games either. I bet Bills Pats would have filled the place.

They did, but it didn't draw because they got greedy. They were charging the highest ticket prices in the NFL at the time and Toronto fans wouldn't bite. In the end they had to paper the house. They also brought in PSY to perform Gangnam Style at halftime in 2012. They played 2 pre season games and 6 regular season games from 2008 to 2013.. At the time the Bills themselves sucked and the opponents in Toronto were the Dolphins, Jets, Colts, Bears, Redskins, Seahawks and Falcons.
I might have gone to a game had they played the Patriots
The Bills lost to Miami 16-3, they lost to the Jets 19-13, they lost to the Bears 22-19, they beat the Skins 23-0, lost to the Seahawks 50-17, and lost to the Falcons 34-31 in OT.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

**** the cheap owner.

Good for Bills fans though, they have been a consistently passionate fanbase regardless of how ****ty their team has been.

Also, **** having a football team in Canada

Upstate New York is downstate Canada

 

[XLIX]

You have to remember that teams don't spend to the cap.

True, but they spend a helluva lot more than $50 million on full team’s players, which is roughly what your average salary comes out to for a whole team.

IIRC, teams must spend at least 90% of the total salary cap over a 4 year period. Given the way things currently project, that means the floor for the next 4 years will be well over $200 million per team per year.

So I stand by my calculation that the true average for players in the NFL is in the $3 million to $4 million range, especially if we isolate the 53 men per team who start the season on a roster, and don’t let the average be brought down by the 1 game “fill ins” we see late in the season.

 

[GreenCow]

You said I wrote the footprint would fit in the Perry projects. I never said that. Now you're backtracking.

I wrote it would go in the industrial area to the west of Perry, in the Perry projects, and south to the river and the park. There is plenty of room in those 3 areas. Nothing to do with the first ward.

The areas you are mentioning (which you don’t seem to know much about because to the west of Perry is the casino and arena) are literally in the photo I supplied to you. The stadium and parking STILL DOESNT FIT.

There is a reason why even the diehard downtown stadium people acknowledge that the Bills would have to shove a stadium into one spot, and then break up parking in random directions all over.

I don’t mean any offense by this, but it’s clear that you don’t know the area very well.

 

[GreenCow]

You've obviously never been to a Bills game. It's not like Foxboro. Nothing like it.

Yeah guys… us Bills fans hitchhike to the stadium, and the few who drive park on peoples lawns. You should see the 15,000 stadium parking spaces on game day. COMPLETELY EMPTY!

Concessions lines have no one in them because we smuggle beer and chicken legs into the games. Those poor vendors make $0 on game day. Oh and we pay $25 below the average ticket price to get in!

Don’t get me started on apparel. We all hand stitch our own jerseys so we don’t have to buy any apparel at the stadium.

This guy TOTALLY gets it.

 

[GreenCow]

In fact I have. Have you?
Your argument is Buffalo is the only stadium that people don’t buy food, gear or pay for parking. BS and you know it.

I’m honestly starting to think he’s never been.

The last couple of years you have to get to the stadium by 10am or you won’t even get a parking spot. They sell out very quickly.

And concessions sucks because half the darn stadium is trying to buy food or beer. One time it took me half a quarter waiting in line to get a drink.

 

[billdog3484]

“The state will pay for a new stadium” aka the people. I’m so sick and tired of public money for private profit.

Well, its not that black and white. by keeping the team in the state, how much money does the state make? have you ever considered that?

 

[Bill Lee]

I don't completely agree with your characterization of the situation prior to the building of Gillette, but regardless of what take runs clear for you, the fact remains that in the end (for whatever reason) the Stadium was build ENTIRELY with private money and the inherent infrastructure costs where ALSO repaid to the state. And most importantly the project was and is a financial success for the owner, so I never understood why, AFTER seeing what Kraft did on his own, NO other owner followed suit.

I was following, right up till the last sentence. In the end it worked for Kraft doesn't mean it would work for the Pagulas in BUF, Mark Davis in LV, etc. I fully understand why they'd want the local governments to fund the bulk of the stadium with NFL helping them with a loan on friendly terms for the rest, regardless of what Kraft did.

Kraft took the risk and tied up lots of his own funds. I feel he did this because he felt confident in taking a calculated bet that the market would support the move. Worst case, I think he was confident he could eventually sell the team on to an even richer individual and having the stadium in the package would make that kind of deal a lot more attractive.

Other owners might not have the funds nor want to take the risk nor have the confidence in the local market that Kraft had. Actually the link I give below says LV funded 38% of their new stadium and we still don't know what ratio the public will have to carry in BUF. I suppose it will be a high percentage because the BUF market is relatively small. There will be a premium that will be paid to keep the team in BUF, IMO.

The LA stadium is funded from Kronke's own funds i.e. the vast Walmart fortune he married into. Actually the link below confirms that, and that the new Meadowlands was fully private, so at least these two followed Kraft's model.

Of the last 21 stadiums built, eleven (IND, ARZ, SEA, HOU, DEN, PIT, CIN, CLE, TPA, TEN, BAL) were more than half publicly funded, the rest less. However, the trend suggests less public funding rather than more in recent days. All the stadiums opened since 2009 (DAL, NYG, SFO, MIN, ATL, LV, LA) are all less than half publicly funded. I think that NFL fund that loans owners money for stadiums is probably taking a large percentage of the rest of the funding needs.

Personally, I think the trend means that only the ultra-wealthy can/will become owners, and I'm not sure that's the best outcome for the game, yet since my taxes aren't involved till New Hampshire funds a stadium I really don't have a dog in the fight.

Link:

Pay to play: How 21 NFL stadiums have been financed

Most stadiums were built with a mix of private and public funds.

buffalonews.com

I don't doubt if the state had offers some money, Kraft would have taken it. Christ he eventually walked away with a completely FREE stadium in Hartford (though who knows how real that deal actually was). BTW - I never believed he would have walked away from a stadium in the Boston area, though that is just my personal opinion. Don't forget at the time he was rightfully pissed when the then Governor Bill Weld led him down the garden path and then left him hanging in the wind with that so called Metro Plex, with visions of a convention center, football stadium, and the Sox launching homers into the harbor in THEIR new stadium to go along with the Bruins and the Celts playing just 2 subway stops away in North Station. Sounded great, I know I wanted it, but it was poorly thought out and Weld never did the ground work necessary to get it through all the LOCAL political hurdles, and Kraft was left holding the bag when it all fell apart.

Yes, there were all kinds of proposals floating around from total fantasy to somewhat plausible, and I give Kraft credit for sorting through all of them and going with what clearly was/is a huge success. I agree Weld was at best wildly optimistic and at worst deceitful. Luckily for us Kraft had the means and the risk tolerance to fund the stadium himself. Lots of other owners in the same time frame got lots of public money.

Sorry for the long post, but I find this business of sports stuff to be quite interesting.

 

[Bill Lee]

It’s all about giving money to upstate paid for by downstate. I don’t think the Bills AFCE title has much to do with it. Without the Bills the state technically would have no football team, since the wretched Jets and petrified Giants play in the swamp across the river. Plus, downstate NY tax revenue has bankrolled upstate for generations and it’s no accident that’s continuing.

Right, yet I don't think it'd be happening if BUF's team stunk and had no hope to get better, like it did in let's say the Rex Ryan era. The downstaters could just say it makes no sense to invest in the stadium if the team sucks and is going nowhere. At least now they can say there's a good chance the team will be relevant when the stadium opens.

Like it or not, a good sports team makes a huge difference in public perception and willingness to invest. My alma mater and state university, UConn, was underfunded for decades till the basketball team started winning national championships. All of a sudden all kinds of new buildings went up on campus and even relatively minor things like parking and cosmetic things like decent sidewalks took a big step forward.

As the old saying goes, victory has many fathers, defeat has none.

 

[GreenCow]

Renderings of the possible new stadium.

 

[patfanken]

I was following, right up till the last sentence. In the end it worked for Kraft doesn't mean it would work for the Pagulas in BUF, Mark Davis in LV, etc. I fully understand why they'd want the local governments to fund the bulk of the stadium with NFL helping them with a loan on friendly terms for the rest, regardless of what Kraft did.

Kraft took the risk and tied up lots of his own funds. I feel he did this because he felt confident in taking a calculated bet that the market would support the move. Worst case, I think he was confident he could eventually sell the team on to an even richer individual and having the stadium in the package would make that kind of deal a lot more attractive.

Other owners might not have the funds nor want to take the risk nor have the confidence in the local market that Kraft had. Actually the link I give below says LV funded 38% of their new stadium and we still don't know what ratio the public will have to carry in BUF. I suppose it will be a high percentage because the BUF market is relatively small. There will be a premium that will be paid to keep the team in BUF, IMO.

The LA stadium is funded from Kronke's own funds i.e. the vast Walmart fortune he married into. Actually the link below confirms that, and that the new Meadowlands was fully private, so at least these two followed Kraft's model.

Of the last 21 stadiums built, eleven (IND, ARZ, SEA, HOU, DEN, PIT, CIN, CLE, TPA, TEN, BAL) were more than half publicly funded, the rest less. However, the trend suggests less public funding rather than more in recent days. All the stadiums opened since 2009 (DAL, NYG, SFO, MIN, ATL, LV, LA) are all less than half publicly funded. I think that NFL fund that loans owners money for stadiums is probably taking a large percentage of the rest of the funding needs.

Personally, I think the trend means that only the ultra-wealthy can/will become owners, and I'm not sure that's the best outcome for the game, yet since my taxes aren't involved till New Hampshire funds a stadium I really don't have a dog in the fight.

Link:

Pay to play: How 21 NFL stadiums have been financed

Most stadiums were built with a mix of private and public funds.

buffalonews.com

Yes, there were all kinds of proposals floating around from total fantasy to somewhat plausible, and I give Kraft credit for sorting through all of them and going with what clearly was/is a huge success. I agree Weld was at best wildly optimistic and at worst deceitful. Luckily for us Kraft had the means and the risk tolerance to fund the stadium himself. Lots of other owners in the same time frame got lots of public money.

Sorry for the long post, but I find this business of sports stuff to be quite interesting.

Thanks for sorting through my post and coming up with an answer to the question I ACTUALLY wanted answered. So you NEVER have to say you're sorry for FULLY answering any questions I happen to ask.

The fact that it seems that most of the recent (20 yrs) stadium have a least only cost local tax payers around half the cost seems like an improvement, and maybe under those limited liabilities they can POSSIBLY end up getting out from those situations.

Again, I still have questions, like I had about Buffalo which you so kindly answered, about who exactly OWNS these stadiums where 50% or more were paid for with taxpayer money. I THINK that Jerry Jones owns the palace that that Cowboys play at even though the public paid for close to 40% of the tab. Worse yet, Jones collects ALL of the revenue the stadium produces as well. That my friend is a rip off of massive proportions, even though they only stole 40% of the cost. It still blows my mind that that THIS underachieving oaf got into the HOF BEFORE Bob Kraft, despite directing his team to JUST 3 playoff games in the last 25 years. THAT is how long its been since the Cowboys have been relevant to the championship picture in the NFL, and yet THEIR team is the most valuable (Forbes) on in the league. Send Jerry Jones to the the self promotion PR HOF for sure, but does a good 5 year stretch in the 90's qualify you for the HOF?

BTW- if you actually NEEDED any more reason to hate the Colts, their in-bred fans, and their addicted skank of an owner, the fact they stole 86% of the cost of their stadium should be indictable. It was such a bad deal for indianapolis and Indiana that up until recently the taxpayers were still paying for the previous stadium, To be swindled TWICE by Jim Irsay has to be a new low, and something every Indianan with an IQ over 85 should be ASHAMED of.

One last comment, We all are rabid football fans. Just casual fans don't post on sites like these, let alone do it all the time. So we all fall into the trap of thinking EVERYONE cares about what happens each fall on Sunday. The FACT is that this is a big country with a LOT of people. Hundreds of millions of us, and MOST couldn't give 2 sh!ts about the football OR the NFL. And it's their money too that gets snapped up by all these welfare for Billionaires schemes. Just sayin'

 

[upstater1]

You are wrong on both.

Say it right in the article. And it's my experience as well when I lived in Michigan.

 

[upstater1]

Yeah guys… us Bills fans hitchhike to the stadium, and the few who drive park on peoples lawns. You should see the 15,000 stadium parking spaces on game day. COMPLETELY EMPTY!

Concessions lines have no one in them because we smuggle beer and chicken legs into the games. Those poor vendors make $0 on game day. Oh and we pay $25 below the average ticket price to get in!

Don’t get me started on apparel. We all hand stitch our own jerseys so we don’t have to buy any apparel at the stadium.

This guy TOTALLY gets it.

So, you've never been to Foxboro. I mean, everyone in the league knows that Buffalo is one of the most degraded experiences in the entire NFL. I like the place, but there are people peeing everywhere inside the stadium (not talking about bathrooms), drunks, fights, etc. For heaven's sake, you have a separate family section. The place is full of degenerates.