OT: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

[bigfandan]

Media deifying Manning started early this year.

After reading the article, wow, I can't imagine BB ever talk about one of his star player this way. Jim Caldwell acts like Manning's lap puppy.

Jim Caldwell: "He’ll review every single snap of every game he played. And not just glancing over it, but I’m talking about detail. They’ll take notes of ever single throw, every single play call, every single check.
......
He’ll dissect his entire season that way and then he’ll set new goals for himself in terms of what he thinks he can accomplish. And he seems to certainly keep moving forward, each and every year you see he gets better… I don’t think there is any limitation on him, on what he can improve upon.”

How can Peyton Manning get better? - AFC South Blog - ESPN

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Media deifying Manning started early this year.

After reading the article, wow, I can't imagine BB ever talk about one of his star player this way. Jim Caldwell acts like Manning's lap puppy.


How can Peyton Manning get better? - AFC South Blog - ESPN

That, I think, is his greatest flaw. He is supremely prepared, perhaps too prepared. There's prepared, and there's going with the flow and improvising. You need a little of both. If you derive your confidence from being overprepared, then something that catches you off guard is going to throw you off your game. Once Porter jumped that route in the SB, it changed his demeanor for the rest of the game and he was never the same.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

That, I think, is his greatest flaw. He is supremely prepared, perhaps too prepared. There's prepared, and there's going with the flow and improvising. You need a little of both. If you derive your confidence from being overprepared, then something that catches you off guard is going to throw you off your game. Once Porter jumped that route in the SB, it changed his demeanor for the rest of the game and he was never the same.

True, it's like there's well prepared and then there's OCD and Peyton leans towards the latter. The one time the Colts won it all it was a team effort all season and not primarily the Peyton Manning Show. He has to have a defense that won't squander his efforts and ramp up the pressure to ridiculous levels, and he has to have a running game that will not only balance things up and legitimize play action to buy him that 2 seconds his OL can't muster on their own merits but ideally one that can legitimately tote the rock when the going gets rough. He also has to have receivers he can trust implicitly in order to run that timing offense efficiently. That's actually a lot to need when you're simultaneoudly taking up 15-18% of the cap all by yourself.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

He has to have a defense that won't squander his efforts and ramp up the pressure to ridiculous levels, and he has to have a running game that will not only balance things up and legitimize play action to buy him that 2 seconds his OL can't muster on their own merits but ideally one that can legitimately tote the rock when the going gets rough. He also has to have receivers he can trust implicitly in order to run that timing offense efficiently. That's actually a lot to need when you're simultaneoudly taking up 15-18% of the cap all by yourself.

Gee, I wonder who also needs that for another SB win.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Gee, I wonder who also needs that for another SB win.

They all do. That's the thing. The problem arises when maintaining them impacts your ability to surround them with it or the focus on them results in a team becoming overly dependent on their performance at the expense of not executing like what the rest of them does really matters too... Dungy came to that conclusion before the 2006 season and sold Manning on the less dependence/focus on you is more theory in order to give the Colts an opportunity to emerge as a team as opposed to just a bunch of guys who showed up on Sunday's only because the league won't let the QB play alone...and then fell apart if he struggled and couldn't carry the day alone. Bill has always focused on the importance of team in winning, even when his QB was being routinely called on to save their bacon. The QB has always bought into that theory here, too.

Bill criticizes everyone and his QB buying into that being a sound approach has made it a viable coaching method here. Bill seldom praises anyone on the active roster unless he is quietly praising most all of them collectively. The MO in Indy is often different because of Polian's makeup vs. Bill's. Manning never hears criticism while those who surround him take turns getting tossed under the nearest bus when things don't pan out.

 

[fair catch fryar]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

That, I think, is his greatest flaw. He is supremely prepared, perhaps too prepared. There's prepared, and there's going with the flow and improvising. You need a little of both. If you derive your confidence from being overprepared, then something that catches you off guard is going to throw you off your game. Once Porter jumped that route in the SB, it changed his demeanor for the rest of the game and he was never the same.

Agreed. It's like studying for a big test or giving a huge presentation. There comes a time when you just know you've done everything you can to prepare to the best of your ability and need to relax beforehand and not think about it. If you keep thinking about it you'll tend to over-analyze and start second-guessing your preparation at the last minute leading you to make bad decisions. aka....Superbowl ending interceptions that decide your fate.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Agreed. It's like studying for a big test or giving a huge presentation. There comes a time when you just know you've done everything you can to prepare to the best of your ability and need to relax beforehand and not think about it. If you keep thinking about it you'll tend to over-analyze and start second-guessing your preparation at the last minute leading you to make bad decisions. aka....Superbowl ending interceptions that decide your fate.

Remember, before conducting his first game winning drive in a superbowl...Brady took a nap. He needs his teamates to man up again so he can chill out. Belichick knows that. It's why he told him to stay away after 2007, something lost on local mediots...

I think it's also interesting to acknowledge that this week as Manning returned to the field with his teamates for the first time after undergoing off season neck surgery ...nary a word about his off season absence in Indy or health/performance concerns or windows closing or his contract talks being in disconnect as Irsay wonders aloud how he will back his earlier musings about making Peyton the highest paid player in the league while maintaining a team around him...including two holdouts skipping OTA's looking for more money and a distracted no show #1WR whose wife has likely got her divorce lawyer's pouring over his check book...

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Peyton's biggest problem is his ego. He is under the misguided impression that he knows more than his coordinators. That's why he audibles so much. Many times to a play not even remotely resembling the initial call. It's what has gotten him in trouble time and again.

His arrogance has caused him to throw teammates under the proverbial bus on several occasions.

The biggest difference between Tom Brady and Peyton Manning is that Brady is humble while Peyton is arrogant. Brady is one of the first to accept responsibility while Peyton is one of the last (if he ever does).

 

[TennesseePatriot]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Peyton's biggest problem is his ego. He is under the misguided impression that he knows more than his coordinators. That's why he audibles so much. Many times to a play not even remotely resembling the initial call. It's what has gotten him in trouble time and again.

His arrogance has caused him to throw teammates under the proverbial bus on several occasions.

The biggest difference between Tom Brady and Peyton Manning is that Brady is humble while Peyton is arrogant. Brady is one of the first to accept responsibility while Peyton is one of the last (if he ever does).

This post is so good, it should be engraved in stone.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Remember, before conducting his first game winning drive in a superbowl...Brady took a nap. He needs his teamates to man up again so he can chill out. Belichick knows that. It's why he told him to stay away after 2007, something lost on local mediots...

I think it's also interesting to acknowledge that this week as Manning returned to the field with his teamates for the first time after undergoing off season neck surgery ...nary a word about his off season absence in Indy or health/performance concerns or windows closing or his contract talks being in disconnect as Irsay wonders aloud how he will back his earlier musings about making Peyton the highest paid player in the league while maintaining a team around him...including two holdouts skipping OTA's looking for more money and a distracted no show #1WR whose wife has likely got her divorce lawyer's pouring over his check book...

That's right on target. The pregame Lockerroom nap is one of the great stories. There's a whole lot of chilling that has to happen in "Patriot Nation."

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Peyton's biggest problem is his ego. He is under the misguided impression that he knows more than his coordinators. That's why he audibles so much. Many times to a play not even remotely resembling the initial call. It's what has gotten him in trouble time and again.

His arrogance has caused him to throw teammates under the proverbial bus on several occasions.

The biggest difference between Tom Brady and Peyton Manning is that Brady is humble while Peyton is arrogant. Brady is one of the first to accept responsibility while Peyton is one of the last (if he ever does).

I don't know. I'm no apologist for Manning, but I'd be willing to bet that he does know more than his coordinators (as does Brady). But, the big difference between them is that one of them has been coached by a genius who will go down as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, in the history of the game and the other hasn't. I just don't think we can underestimate the role that playing for Belichick has played in Tom's approach to the game and his success; and, I think he knows this and that it's why he will be with the Patriots when all the dust settles after next season.

Also, arrogance is part of the makeup of a lot of great competitors; I don't think we should confuse Tommy's public humility with a high degree of competitiveness that would probably, privately, rise to what most of us would describe as arrogance. I don't think there has ever been a great QB in the NFL who wasn't arrogant in some way; Staubach, Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw...all of them have an edge. Some of them just handle it differently because of their personalities.

I agree that Peyton will say things about his teammates that Brady would never say, but he clearly does something afterwards in the lockerroom or one on one that make them right, so somehow his teammates take it as part of his competitive makeup.

In other words, I don't think "bad guy," "good guy," "arrogant guy," humble guy" is how we get at the heart of the difference between Brady and Manning.

 

[patsox23]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

I could be overreacting based on the quote selected -- I'm too lazy to read the entire article -- but...

Peyton Manning is awesome. In large part due to a commendably tireless work ethic. Belichick would absolutely say that kind of thing, if a bit tempered, about Brady. And too many Patriots fans think Peyton's overrated for the fan-base to be taken completely seriously at all times.

 

[FarScapeR]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

I don't know. I'm no apologist for Manning, but I'd be willing to bet that he does know more than his coordinators (as does Brady). But, the big difference between them is that one of them has been coached by a genius who will go down as one of the greatest, if not the greatest, in the history of the game and the other hasn't. I just don't think we can underestimate the role that playing for Belichick has played in Tom's approach to the game and his success; and, I think he knows this and that it's why he will be with the Patriots when all the dust settles after next season.

Also, arrogance is part of the makeup of a lot of great competitors; I don't think we should confuse Tommy's public humility with a high degree of competitiveness that would probably, privately, rise to what most of us would describe as arrogance. I don't think there has ever been a great QB in the NFL who wasn't arrogant in some way; Staubach, Montana, Aikman, Bradshaw...all of them have an edge. Some of them just handle it differently because of their personalities.

I agree that Peyton will say things about his teammates that Brady would never say, but he clearly does something afterwards in the lockerroom or one on one that make them right, so somehow his teammates take it as part of his competitive makeup.

In other words, I don't think "bad guy," "good guy," "arrogant guy," humble guy" is how we get at the heart of the difference between Brady and Manning.

Word. Also, talentwise, I don't think Manning has an equal. He's blessed with a rare combination of smarts, durability, accuracy and arm strength. Yet I don't think you'd ever hear of anyone saying any other QB is better prepared for a game than he is. That's what separates him from Brett Favre.

As for Brady, it's his Michigan struggles and will-power that drive him to be as good. It's also the key difference-maker in daunting playoff games.

 

[jmt57]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

I have to agree with what PatsFanSince74, patsox23, and FarScapeR said. Admitting Manning is a great player does not make one less of a Pats fan. And by the way, if media attention towards another QB turns your stomach, you may want to stock up on antacids this fall. Favre needs to throw three touchdown passes to become the first player in NFL history to throw for 500 touchdowns in the regular season, and Manning needs to throw 34 to become the third player to throw 400.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

We are fortunate to have an excellent future HOF rival like Manning & the Colts org. An excellent yardstick for assessing the quality of future HOF Brady and this Pats org. By my take Manning wins the funny commercials award hands down.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

We are fortunate to have an excellent future HOF rival like Manning & the Colts org. An excellent yardstick for assessing the quality of future HOF Brady and this Pats org. By my take Manning wins the funny commercials award hands down.

Yeah, one of the things that makes professional sports so intriguing is when two great players or teams overlap in the same decade or whatever. All one has to do is think "Bird-Magic," "McEnroe-Connors" or "Ali-Frazier" to understand what I mean. These are athletes who are forever remembered and measured in the context of the other. In the NFL, "Bradshaw-Staubach" is really the closest thing we can find to "Brady-Manning;" but, even that's a stretch because they played in different conferences...nonetheless, one or both of them appeared in every SB but one between 1975 and 1980.

But, Brady-Manning will go down as the greatest individual rivalry in the history of the NFL. Their careers have overlapped for all but two years as starters; health permitting, they have played against each other every year in the Regular Season since 2001 and have played in three of the most memorable Playoff games in modern times.

They present the perfect "Montana-Marino" debate, with Peyton dominating (most seasons) statistically and Brady's hand weighed down by rings. Their "Midwest-Hollywood" personas give them just enough contrast for the rivalry to have an "edge," but otherwise they are cut from the same cloth: highly competitive, respectful of the game and completely focused on winning. I don't think it's just "hype" that they are good friends, as I think it is probably true; Peyton once said that he hasn't been able to look a second time at the tape of Tommy going down in 2008.

I don't know how many trips back to the SB one or both of them might have left; too many external factors make that determination. But, I will admit that I did have the feeling, after Peyton was picked by NO at the end of the game last February, that their mutual legacy was sealed. As I watched Manning sitting on the ground after the play, I had the feeling that he did as well.

I have this fantasy that they retire in the same year and present each other in Canton five years later, but know that it will never come about because those roles are long reserved for Irsay or Dungy, Kraft or Belichick.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

I have to agree with what PatsFanSince74, patsox23, and FarScapeR said. Admitting Manning is a great player does not make one less of a Pats fan. And by the way, if media attention towards another QB turns your stomach, you may want to stock up on antacids this fall. Favre needs to throw three touchdown passes to become the first player in NFL history to throw for 500 touchdowns in the regular season, and Manning needs to throw 34 to become the third player to throw 400.

400 TD's. Only Marino and Favre are ahead of him; I actually hope I'm watching on TV when he throws it. That's amazing. And, 500 is just plain silly. Even Danny Boy "only" chucked 420.

I understand having strong competitive feelings against the Colts and Peyton, because they have usually been the biggest obstacle to getting to the big game.

But, otherwise, Brady, Favre, Marino, Montana (and Aikman, Bradshaw, Elway, Staubach, Young in this era)...these guys measure their greatness in terms of each other; each highlights a different aspect of excellence.

 

[MustaphaM0nd]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Yeah, one of the things that makes professional sports so intriguing is when two great players or teams overlap in the same decade or whatever. All one has to do is think "Bird-Magic," "McEnroe-Connors" or "Ali-Frazier" to understand what I mean. These are athletes who are forever remembered and measured in the context of the other. In the NFL, "Bradshaw-Staubach" is really the closest thing we can find to "Brady-Manning;" but, even that's a stretch because they played in different conferences...nonetheless, one or both of them appeared in every SB but one between 1975 and 1980.

But, Brady-Manning will go down as the greatest individual rivalry in the history of the NFL. Their careers have overlapped for all but two years as starters; health permitting, they have played against each other every year in the Regular Season since 2001 and have played in three of the most memorable Playoff games in modern times.

They present the perfect "Montana-Marino" debate, with Peyton dominating (most seasons) statistically and Brady's hand weighed down by rings. Their "Midwest-Hollywood" personas give them just enough contrast for the rivalry to have an "edge," but otherwise they are cut from the same cloth: highly competitive, respectful of the game and completely focused on winning. I don't think it's just "hype" that they are good friends, as I think it is probably true; Peyton once said that he hasn't been able to look a second time at the tape of Tommy going down in 2008.

I don't know how many trips back to the SB one or both of them might have left; too many external factors make that determination. But, I will admit that I did have the feeling, after Peyton was picked by NO at the end of the game last February, that their mutual legacy was sealed. As I watched Manning sitting on the ground after the play, I had the feeling that he did as well.

I have this fantasy that they retire in the same year and present each other in Canton five years later, but know that it will never come about because those roles are long reserved for Irsay or Dungy, Kraft or Belichick.

This.

The two contrast in every way.
Manning: no. 1 overall, heralded as the future of the position.
Brady: no. 199 overall, fate landed him the starting job.

Manning: average American appeal, genuine
Brady: bears himself like nobility, always radiates intensity,

Manning: stat champ, won a SB when his defense was clutch
Brady: 3 SB wins, was a stat champ when the pieces were in place

Manning: will be remembered for underachieving in the postseason
Brady: will be remembered for game winning drives and clutchness

 

[Patspsycho]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

Yeah, one of the things that makes professional sports so intriguing is when two great players or teams overlap in the same decade or whatever. All one has to do is think "Bird-Magic," "McEnroe-Connors" or "Ali-Frazier" to understand what I mean. These are athletes who are forever remembered and measured in the context of the other. In the NFL, "Bradshaw-Staubach" is really the closest thing we can find to "Brady-Manning;" but, even that's a stretch because they played in different conferences...nonetheless, one or both of them appeared in every SB but one between 1975 and 1980.

But, Brady-Manning will go down as the greatest individual rivalry in the history of the NFL. Their careers have overlapped for all but two years as starters; health permitting, they have played against each other every year in the Regular Season since 2001 and have played in three of the most memorable Playoff games in modern times.

They present the perfect "Montana-Marino" debate, with Peyton dominating (most seasons) statistically and Brady's hand weighed down by rings. Their "Midwest-Hollywood" personas give them just enough contrast for the rivalry to have an "edge," but otherwise they are cut from the same cloth: highly competitive, respectful of the game and completely focused on winning. I don't think it's just "hype" that they are good friends, as I think it is probably true; Peyton once said that he hasn't been able to look a second time at the tape of Tommy going down in 2008.

I don't know how many trips back to the SB one or both of them might have left; too many external factors make that determination. But, I will admit that I did have the feeling, after Peyton was picked by NO at the end of the game last February, that their mutual legacy was sealed. As I watched Manning sitting on the ground after the play, I had the feeling that he did as well.

I agree with this and have always enjoyed playing against the Colts. It has always been a good game one way or another.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Manning pursuing perfection (or NOT!)

This.

The two contrast in every way.
Manning: no. 1 overall, heralded as the future of the position.
Brady: no. 199 overall, fate landed him the starting job.

Ancient history. If you're saying that Brady plays with a bit of a chip on his shoulder, I'd agree, but Manning has a chip too given all the talk about his postseason "failures."


Manning: average American appeal, genuine
Brady: bears himself like nobility, always radiates intensity,

Not sure what "nobility" is, but we did fight a war to get rid of it. I think they're both intense and I think Brady comes across as "genuine." I described the difference as "Hollywood" and "Middle America." I'll stick with that.

Manning: stat champ, won a SB when his defense was clutch
Brady: 3 SB wins, was a stat champ when the pieces were in place

Fair assessment. Get's to the whole "Montana-Marino" dynamic that makes the competition so interesting.

Manning: will be remembered for underachieving in the postseason
Brady: will be remembered for game winning drives and clutchness

Re Manning: It's mixed in the postseason, IMO. He didn't make it his first two years, lost his first trip in a blowout that you can't put on his shoulders, then lost to the eventual champion three years in a row, won his ring, stunk two years in a row against the Chargers and then lost in the SB to a team that had "Destiny" tattooed on its forehead, but did throw that pick. So, it's mixed; I don't think you can call losing to the eventual champion three years in a row "underachieving" without taking something away from those champions. That he was kept from the big prize twice by Brady only adds to the nature of this rivalry.

Re Brady: You're right.

I think where they are similar is in their intensity, competitiveness, and love of and respect for the game.